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    Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

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    Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  Eagle on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:42 pm



    Dzirkaln has confirmed that Russia will finish delivering Pantsir-S1 short-range air defense systems to the United Arab Emirates by late 2010."This year the delivery will be completed. Two more shipments of these vehicles will be delivered and the contract on the delivery will be fulfilled," he said.Russian signed a $734-million contract with the United Arab Emirates in 2000 on purchasing 50 Pantsir-S1s.It is designed to protect point and area targets and carries up to 12 two-stage solid-fuel surface-to-air missiles in sealed ready-to-launch containers.The system also has two dual 30 mm automatic cannons that can engage targets at a range of up to 4 km.The talks in Abu Dhabi are to focus on the "full modernization of a large number of BMP-3s in an effort to seriously increase their combat capability," the Russian official said.
    "We have succeeded in this direction," Dzirkaln said.
    The infantry fighting vehicles had been earlier supplied to the UAE by Kurganmashzavod, a Russian machine building company based in Kurgan, western Siberia.
    The official said that the military officials in the United Arab Emirates have "a good attitude for cooperating with Russia." "Therefore I make the conclusion that our cooperation has a future."
    Dzirkaln also confirmed that Russia will finish delivering Pantsir-S1 short-range air defense systems to the United Arab Emirates by late 2010.
    "This year the delivery will be completed. Two more shipments of these vehicles will be delivered and the contract on the delivery will be fulfilled," he said.
    Russian media reports said Moscow had signed a $734-million contract with the United Arab Emirates in 2000 on purchasing 50 Pantsir-S1s.
    Pantsir-S1 is a short-to-medium range combined surface-to-air missile and antiaircraft artillery system manufactured by the Tula-based Instrument Making Design Bureau (KPB).
    It is designed to protect point and area targets and carries up to 12 two-stage solid-fuel surface-to-air missiles in sealed ready-to-launch containers.
    The system also has two dual 30 mm automatic cannons that can engage targets at a range of up to 4 km.
    The Russian official said it was too early to speak about the prospects of further delivery of Pantsir-S1s to the UAE.
    "Further development will consist of providing service maintenance and continuing training UAE specialists in the aspects of operation, repair and service maintenance," he said.
    ABU DHABI, June 2 (RIA Novosti)

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100602/159268181.html

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:07 pm

    I wonder what form the upgrade of the BMP-3 will take with the UAE?

    Perhaps they will want to discard the amphibious capability and shift the engine to the front and give it much heavier all round armour and take it up to the 30-35 ton weight class of western IFVs.
    Certainly if they do that there is potential for the up armoured turret... if you want a support vehicle like BMPT to protect tanks using high elevation weapons then the BMP-3 armament would be ideal and much better than the BMPTs armament... the new heavier armoured turret could be fitted to a T-90 tank chassis and operate with tanks in built up areas able to elevate a 30mm and a 100mm rifled main gun to 70 degrees plus to hit targets on rooftops would be ideal and the 100mm HE ammo would be cheaper than using ATAKA missiles, though for 5km range shots at point targets there is always the gun tube fired missile.

    Because the BMP-3 in Russian service needs to be amphibious the engine is fitted in the back and makes entry and exit more awkward. It is fitted to the back to balance the weight of the frontal armour and the turret. With the engine at the front the frontal armour would have to be very light or the turret mounted at the rear of the vehicle to balance the weight.

    Of course I might be way off and the upgrade might be a new 57mm gun to replace the 30mm and the 100mm gun and proper mini turrets with external guns for the bow mounted weapons.

    Should be interesting.

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  SerbNationalist on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:34 pm

    What is the price of one Pantsyr? And which acquisition radar (some of the newer and better ones) are good to combine with Pantsyr as a detection system?

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:02 am

    You don't really buy one Pantsir.

    One unit will have a command/communications vehicle and you would normally have about 6 combat vehicles with missiles and guns ready to engage targets. Support vehicles would include a maintainence vehicle and a loader vehicle for every two combat vehicles so up to three maintainence and three loaders vehicles per battery.

    Note radars, optics, guns and missile systems all need maintainence as well as the vehicles themselves.

    The command and communications vehicle links the battery to the local air defence network and pulls in data from other radar sources and can pass targets and target information to the entire battery and pass battery information to the air defence network, ie number of available missiles/ammo, targets detected, air picture etc.

    Another factor is that the cost of such systems depends on who is buying. Different clients will probably get different prices and different packages.

    The main thing to keep in mind is the huge advantage of Pantsir as developed for the UAE is the missiles. The extended range and ceiling envelop almost make it a medium range SAM yet with no expensive sensors in the missile the missiles themselves are cheap and can be bought and actually used in huge numbers. The expensive stuff is on the launch vehicle so it can be made better quality because it is not disposable.

    There is nothing worse than having the best weapon in the world but not having enough to actually deploy them widely or even use them in training.

    A battery can operate in several modes. The first is autonomous where each combat vehicle searches, detects, identifies, prioritises, designates, additional search, lockon tracking and target engagement by missiles and guns. The second is where you use the combat vehicles together as a battery where one is designated the leader and performs battery command functions. Targets are detected by the lead vehicle and are handed to the following vehicles for engagement. Lead vehicle operates sensors, other vehicles operate passively. A third mode is where a battery command vehicle connects the unit to the AD network and each combat vehicle operates like an autonomous vehicle handling all the steps from the processing of target data (which is handed down from the AD network). When a vehicle starts engagement of a target it transmits that data to other platforms so that all vehicles don't engage the same target.

    Being very mobile and able to fire guns and missiles on the move the Pantsir is a very capable system.

    If you are interested in the price of these and other Russian systems this is a good website:

    http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2010/

    It will cost money, but the information about Russian military exports will give you the answers you want. Keep in mind some of the prices given are estimates and of course many include extras. Part of the money the UAE spent on their Pantsirs included development money to further improve the system.
    Also another unknown is how many missiles were bought as well as trainers and support equipment etc etc.

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  SerbNationalist on Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:55 pm

    Thank you Garry, that helped a lot. Few more questions about Pantsyr, what is the range of its missiles, I've found many different info for the same missile, so I'm interested to know what is it exact range and is it really good against missiles too, not just against aircraft?
    And do you think (just want an opinion) that a country like Serbia (77474 square kilometers without Kosovo, because we can't put troops there yet) would benefit from let's say 10 batteries/units (in our military those six plus support and command vehicles is called a battery) of Pantsyr (60 systems plus the command vehicles and support vehicles)?
    And do you know (an assessment) how much would that cost, since 50 systems that UAE bought with command and support vehicles costed between 750-800 million$ ?


    All the best! Very Happy


    Last edited by SerbNationalist on Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:04 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  SerbNationalist on Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:You don't really buy one Pantsir.



    I know that you don't really buy one Pantsyr, I was just interested in the price of one! XD

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:34 pm

    SerbNationalist wrote:
    GarryB wrote:You don't really buy one Pantsir.



    I know that you don't really buy one Pantsyr, I was just interested in the price of one! XD

    16 million I thin a piece.

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  SerbNationalist on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:52 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    SerbNationalist wrote:
    GarryB wrote:You don't really buy one Pantsir.



    I know that you don't really buy one Pantsyr, I was just interested in the price of one! XD

    16 million I thin a piece.

    Actually what I read by now is between 14-15 million$, but I'm not sure weather it changed.

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:07 am

    I am not involved in operating these or any SAMs and am only going by advertising articles and internet webpages.

    Currently the Russian armed forces seem to intend to use the Pantsyr to defend their S-400s from attacks by ARMs and PGMs.
    The standard vehicle, which is truck mounted (for lower costs) is best suited for defending larger SAMs because it is cheaper to buy and operate than a tracked system yet is mobile enough to move with the system it is defending.
    For fixed targets an even cheaper shelterised model is an option, for an HQ, or Comms centre or an airfield for example.
    To defend troops on the move the more expensive to buy and operate tracked chassis ensures it can keep up in any terrain a tank can operate in.
    The system has decimetre, centimetre, and milimetre radar and IR bands to detect, track and engage targets in all sorts of EW situations day and night.
    The missiles themselves have a range of 18-20km, which means that at ground level it can hit a target 20km away and at 10km altitude it can hit a target 18km away.
    Regarding missiles it can engage all sorts of missiles from Tomahawks and UAVs/UCAVs, through to high speed missiles like Maverick-2 (650m/s) and HARM 2 (700m/s). It has best performance against such missiles out to 8km or so for the high speed missiles.

    BTW I have found a better list of maintainence vehicles...

    The 2V110-E maintainence vehicle for maintainence and repair of mechanical assemblies.
    The 66R6-E repair and maintainence vehicle for maintainence and repair of electronic assemblies and units.
    The 65Yu6-E alignment vehicle for alignment operations.
    The 2F55-E SPTA vehicle for transportation of the groups SPTA set. (SPTA means Spare Parts, Tools and Accessories)
    The 9V684-E test equipment for missile checking.
    The 9F676-1 Stationary trainer and the 9F676-2 mobile trainer.
    Where the stationary trainer is to train and drill 6 combat crews together in a class room type environment, while the mobile trainer is used by one crew at a time in the field.

    And do you know (an assessment) how much would that cost, since 50 systems that UAE bought with command and support vehicles costed between 750-800 million$ ?

    It is hard to guess. I don't think Serbia would have to pay as much as, say New Zealand would for a battery. It also matters how many batterys you want and also when. Right now they are cranking them out for UAE and for Russia, and I know for a fact that the Russian armed forces is getting them much cheaper than UAE is.
    The cost to the UAE includes the cost of development as well as the purchase price... but then that is why they are getting them so soon.
    It is like India with the Mig-29K, if there is a production problem and they can only make 30 more in the next 2 years they will go to India despite the Russian navy ordering some too. Simply because the Indians paid for the development of the Mig-29K so it is partially their bird.
    Of course in the case of the Mig-35 they haven't paid a cent for development so if it came down to production for Russia and India then the Russians might get theirs first. Personally I think that with Sukhoi working on the T-50 and export Flankers and Su-35S for the Russian AF it is probably a very good thing there is the Mig-35 because I don't think Sukhoi alone can make enough of everything to please everyone.
    Equally I would want to use the Su-35s as fighters so for short and medium strike I would want Mig-35s and Mig-29SMTs to fill that role. (Long range strike is the Su-24 and Su-34s).
    Anyway back to the topic, the cost to the UAE is inflated because it includes development costs to further improve the system to what it is now.
    For Serbia I think Russia could give you a better price per battery and probably some soft loans to help cover it.
    If you can include it with other things like a purchase of Mig-35s and or S-300s you could probably get an even better deal.
    Personally I think you should pursue one of two goals, either buy off the shelf older stuff and then upgrade it to make it effective (cheaper but less threatening to the west to keep them off your back), or gather up your dormant aerospace skills and promise and try for joint ventures with Russian companies with the goal of developing systems for countries that need to defend themselves from large powerful multinational military organisations without blowing the budget, finding low tech and high tech but cheap but also effective ways of making a powerful enemy pay for aggression. Things like the Club cruise missile in a shipping container... except design it so that it can launch from a shipping container in the water so you can sail down the coast of an enemy in a container ship and slip a few over the side to sit in the water and wait for a command to launch an attack or self destruct to destroy any evidence. Individual S-300 SAMs in single missile launchers in forests ready for launch at aircraft flying overhead. Dig them in so that they are protected from forest fires and just the end sticks out. Then make thousands of ends you can put around the place so that an external power wont know the real from the fake.
    Selling it to other countries like Iran, Syria, etc will earn you lots of money hopefully and make imperialism harder for the west.

    Actually what I read by now is between 14-15 million$, but I'm not sure weather it changed.

    There are too many variables to give a hard figure. The Serbian ministry of defence needs to go to Rosoboronexport and say "we want 50 batteries right now and we are thinking about S-300s some time down the line too what sort of a deal can you offer us?". I think the Russians trust Serbia and respect them too as allies and would offer a good deal. Obviously the more money you can offer to put down in hard cash the better the terms I would think. Most significant deals these days include offset packages that require the vendor to invest at least 50% of the deals value in the customer countries economy anyway.

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  SerbNationalist on Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:I am not involved in operating these or any SAMs and am only going by advertising articles and internet webpages.

    Currently the Russian armed forces seem to intend to use the Pantsyr to defend their S-400s from attacks by ARMs and PGMs.
    The standard vehicle, which is truck mounted (for lower costs) is best suited for defending larger SAMs because it is cheaper to buy and operate than a tracked system yet is mobile enough to move with the system it is defending.
    For fixed targets an even cheaper shelterised model is an option, for an HQ, or Comms centre or an airfield for example.
    To defend troops on the move the more expensive to buy and operate tracked chassis ensures it can keep up in any terrain a tank can operate in.
    The system has decimetre, centimetre, and milimetre radar and IR bands to detect, track and engage targets in all sorts of EW situations day and night.
    The missiles themselves have a range of 18-20km, which means that at ground level it can hit a target 20km away and at 10km altitude it can hit a target 18km away.
    Regarding missiles it can engage all sorts of missiles from Tomahawks and UAVs/UCAVs, through to high speed missiles like Maverick-2 (650m/s) and HARM 2 (700m/s). It has best performance against such missiles out to 8km or so for the high speed missiles.

    BTW I have found a better list of maintainence vehicles...

    The 2V110-E maintainence vehicle for maintainence and repair of mechanical assemblies.
    The 66R6-E repair and maintainence vehicle for maintainence and repair of electronic assemblies and units.
    The 65Yu6-E alignment vehicle for alignment operations.
    The 2F55-E SPTA vehicle for transportation of the groups SPTA set. (SPTA means Spare Parts, Tools and Accessories)
    The 9V684-E test equipment for missile checking.
    The 9F676-1 Stationary trainer and the 9F676-2 mobile trainer.
    Where the stationary trainer is to train and drill 6 combat crews together in a class room type environment, while the mobile trainer is used by one crew at a time in the field.

    And do you know (an assessment) how much would that cost, since 50 systems that UAE bought with command and support vehicles costed between 750-800 million$ ?

    It is hard to guess. I don't think Serbia would have to pay as much as, say New Zealand would for a battery. It also matters how many batterys you want and also when. Right now they are cranking them out for UAE and for Russia, and I know for a fact that the Russian armed forces is getting them much cheaper than UAE is.
    The cost to the UAE includes the cost of development as well as the purchase price... but then that is why they are getting them so soon.
    It is like India with the Mig-29K, if there is a production problem and they can only make 30 more in the next 2 years they will go to India despite the Russian navy ordering some too. Simply because the Indians paid for the development of the Mig-29K so it is partially their bird.
    Of course in the case of the Mig-35 they haven't paid a cent for development so if it came down to production for Russia and India then the Russians might get theirs first. Personally I think that with Sukhoi working on the T-50 and export Flankers and Su-35S for the Russian AF it is probably a very good thing there is the Mig-35 because I don't think Sukhoi alone can make enough of everything to please everyone.
    Equally I would want to use the Su-35s as fighters so for short and medium strike I would want Mig-35s and Mig-29SMTs to fill that role. (Long range strike is the Su-24 and Su-34s).
    Anyway back to the topic, the cost to the UAE is inflated because it includes development costs to further improve the system to what it is now.
    For Serbia I think Russia could give you a better price per battery and probably some soft loans to help cover it.
    If you can include it with other things like a purchase of Mig-35s and or S-300s you could probably get an even better deal.
    Personally I think you should pursue one of two goals, either buy off the shelf older stuff and then upgrade it to make it effective (cheaper but less threatening to the west to keep them off your back), or gather up your dormant aerospace skills and promise and try for joint ventures with Russian companies with the goal of developing systems for countries that need to defend themselves from large powerful multinational military organisations without blowing the budget, finding low tech and high tech but cheap but also effective ways of making a powerful enemy pay for aggression. Things like the Club cruise missile in a shipping container... except design it so that it can launch from a shipping container in the water so you can sail down the coast of an enemy in a container ship and slip a few over the side to sit in the water and wait for a command to launch an attack or self destruct to destroy any evidence. Individual S-300 SAMs in single missile launchers in forests ready for launch at aircraft flying overhead. Dig them in so that they are protected from forest fires and just the end sticks out. Then make thousands of ends you can put around the place so that an external power wont know the real from the fake.
    Selling it to other countries like Iran, Syria, etc will earn you lots of money hopefully and make imperialism harder for the west.

    Actually what I read by now is between 14-15 million$, but I'm not sure weather it changed.

    There are too many variables to give a hard figure. The Serbian ministry of defense needs to go to Rosoboronexport and say "we want 50 batteries right now and we are thinking about S-300s some time down the line too what sort of a deal can you offer us?". I think the Russians trust Serbia and respect them too as allies and would offer a good deal. Obviously the more money you can offer to put down in hard cash the better the terms I would think. Most significant deals these days include offset packages that require the vendor to invest at least 50% of the deals value in the customer countries economy anyway.

    Thank you for all this info and opinions it means a lot and it will be useful. But unfortunately, just like I said in the S-300 topic, our government is not ours, and any serious purchases and defense strengthening can be done when they get out of Serbia, actually when they get arrested and trialed for treason alongside this false opposition of ours, but that is for a different thread and it's a different story, so I won't drag you into this!

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    Re: Russia to Complete Delivery of Pantsir-S1 Air Defense Systems to UAE This Year

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:35 am

    I found an article about the Tunguska system that said a single battery cost for an unnamed customer in 1993 was 60-62 million Dollars.

    I would expect Pantsir to be comparable.

    Note the price the UAE paid for the system includes development costs as well as outright purchase price.

    The total cost of a system also can be heavily effected by consumables like missiles and cannon shells. You could pay twice as much as someone else simply by buying extra training sets and a large reserve of missiles and cannon ammo.

    Fortunately for the customer the missiles are relatively cheap and have no expensive seekers or similar components.

    The 30mm cannon ammo is standard Russian Ammo that is used throughout their army and Navy. Their airforce also uses the 30 x 165mm shells but they use electrically fired shells rather than the percussion models used by Navy and Army.

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