Russian special military operation in Ukraine #10

flamming_python wrote:

This is a brutal war where tens of thousands have died, mostly those from the side of the 'enemy' troops but it doesn't matter, as they're not truly our enemies, most of them. And it didn't have to be this way.
.

I have followed the conflict since the beginning back in 2014 or so, and even as a non Russian my blood boiled at the treatment of Russians (who I consider a brotherly nation) and the countless other atrocities committed by Kiev.

These fuckers have murdered thousands of Donbas civilians deliberately and wilfully and continue to do so, have tortured and executed Russian POW’s, without not only opposition from these friends of yours but with their full support, they normalised incorporating thousands of nazis into their armed forces, banned Russian media , political parties and suppressed the Russian language, again with little to no opposition, yet you seem to not give a single **** about any of that and your only actual concern seems to be that many Wehrmacht troops have died…
I think you make some really good points but in this regard You’re being delusional
Its time to wake up and smell the roses or in this case the rot that Ukraine has become.

Serberus wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

This is a brutal war where tens of thousands have died, mostly those from the side of the 'enemy' troops but it doesn't matter, as they're not truly our enemies, most of them. And it didn't have to be this way.
.

I have followed the conflict since the beginning back in 2014 or so, and as a non Russian my blood boiled at the treatment of Russians (who I consider a brotherly nation) and the countless other atrocities committed by Kiev.

These fuckers have murdered thousands of Donbas civilians deliberately and wilfully and continue to do so, have tortured and executed Russian POW’s, without not only opposition from these friends of yours but with their full support, they normalised incorporating thousands of nazis into their armed forces, banned Russian media , political parties and suppressed the Russian language, again with little to no opposition, yet you seem to not give a single **** about any of that and your only actual concern seems to be that many Wehrmacht troops have died…
I think you make some really good points but in this regard You’re being delusional
I think its time to wake up and smell the roses or in this case the rot that Ukraine has become.

Well I know all that, but the conflict was if not frozen, then at least limited after 2015. Mostly just occasional back and forths between the troops on the front line on both sides, with civilians sometimes dying too - but only in the villages next to the front-lines. And it's been 8 years - a whole new generation of young men are now in the Ukrainian military, ones that had no part in the initial Donbass fighting or took part in it only the trenches after 2015 where you shell and you get shelled back. Without necessarily even knowing who you're fighting, why, or what you're targeting.

And many Ukrainians were starting to weave off the cool-aid. You shouldn't assume that just because the history books were written a certain way or whatever, that everyone believed that. Far from it. Lots of Ukrainians were traveling for tourism to the Crimea, people started to go to Russia again for work, trade was picking up.
Whereas the economic fundamentals and rule of law in the Ukraine was impressing nobody.

One woman wrote in the comments under one of Shariy's videos that her son is from Odessa, who was always for the Russian world, but is now mobilized into the army and stationed in the city. And? So what now? If Russia is killing its own adherants, due to its own mistakes that has allowed the regime to consolidate and then mobilize them?

And what reason do the Ukrainians have to love us, exactly, even if Russia forces a surrender of the Ukraine tommorow? Yes they suffered mostly military casualties, but a lot of them - and these are all someone's sons, fathers, brothers, uncles, nephews. +30k dead now, and I don't even know how many wounded. A mass humanitarian crisis due to the absence of fuel, that will lead to a failure to plant the spring harvest. The economy ground to a stop. Millions of refugees. Everyone's plans for life ruined.
Ukrainians preferred their regime, whatever it was, to war on the scale we're seeing now. It was Russia that needed the regime gone, but couldn't think of a better way to do it. And it's not even successful thus far.

The fact is that Russia through its strategy and actions have validated all the insane propaganda claims by the Ukrainian regime. The regime did plenty of things to provoke a Russian response, and maybe it was inevitable, but it's still the result of Putin's mistakes in the first place before 2014, and during 2014, and the failure to get Yanukovich to reestablish the Ukrainian government in another city. Then over the past 8 years, Putin has thought of nothing smarter about how to change the situation. Ultimately, we could have lived with the Ukrainian regime, so long as it wasn't planning to attack the Donbass or the Crimea. Was it or wasn't it?
And then when Putin did strike, it turned out that he was unprepared, and it all turned into a nightmare.

Yuri Podolyaka published a new link and says that the decision was made that the citizens of Kherson and Zaporozhye regions do not have to repay loans and fulfill their obligations to the Ukrainian state. It is the same as the Russians did with Crimea in 2014, so it seems that these parts of Ukraine (Kherson and Zaporozhye regions) are coming out of the jurisdiction of Ukraine.
Yuri also says that the complete collapse of the Ukrainian economy will follow in May. The reason for that is the destroyed fuel reserves, which is why not only the Ukrainian army suffers, but also the industry and agriculture of Ukraine. Yuri also states that it will be even worse for Ukraine if Russia decides to destroy the road network of Ukrainian railways.

@flamming

Russians who are mobilised from pro Russian areas under Kiev control and forced into servitude of the Nazi regime are not what we are talking about here, and its exactly why this had to happen, it is unfortunate they are caught up in it this way and I hope they find a way to surrender.. Ukraine was not moving towards living peacefully next to Russia but slowly and surely becoming a US protectorate, and was openly acting belligerently towards Russia. I am convinced they were planning an assault on Donbas sooner or later, Crimea maybe not, but considering how demented they have proven to be who knows.
You can criticise, tactics,  mistakes, the Russian leadership etc no issues there, thats why I didn’t respond to any of that, but as far as I am concerned action had to be taken , and this intervention is probably more morally justified than any other conflict since WW2.
civilian losses are regretful on all sides,  no matter how anti Russian their thinking may be, but at least Russia is doing everything it can to minimise them unlike the Kiev regime who don’t seem to give a shit about their own let alone Russians.
Nazis like Azov, Aidar etc including the Ukrainian troops (who have continued to wilfully target Donbas civilians) I will keep referring to as the Wehrmacht.
I will lose no sleep over their deaths. Not now , not ever

https://t.me/intelslava/24579

Another video in which it is said that Russia has all the possibilities to lower the value of the dollar to 40 to 50 rubles for one dollar. Yuri states that Russia has prepared well for the economic war with the West in the past few years, and that he thinks that this is not the case with the EU and the USA.
Juri states that Europe will face a drop in production and an increase in inflation due to the impossibility of accessing the raw materials they imported from Russia.
Also, Juri predicts that there will be a drop in personal income in Europe, while the cost of living will increase. The worst thing that could happen would be the possibility of hyperinflation in the EU, because that would lead to regime change in many EU countries.

I think this man connects things well.

Serberus wrote:@flamming

Russians who are mobilised from pro Russian areas under Kiev control and forced into servitude of the Nazi regime are not what we are talking about here, and its exactly why this had to happen, it is unfortunate they are caught up in it this way and I hope they find a way to surrender.. Ukraine was not moving towards living peacefully next to Russia but slowly and surely becoming a US protectorate, and was openly acting belligerently towards Russia. I am convinced they were planning an assault on Donbas sooner or later, Crimea maybe not, but considering how demented they have proven to be who knows.
You can criticise, tactics,  mistakes, the Russian leadership etc no issues there, thats why I didn’t respond to any of that, but as far as I am concerned action had to be taken , and this intervention is probably more morally justified than any other conflict since WW2.
civilian losses are regretful on all sides,  no matter how anti Russian their thinking may be, but at least Russia is doing everything it can to minimise them unlike the Kiev regime who don’t seem to give a shit about their own let alone Russians.
Nazis like Azov, Aidar etc including the Ukrainian troops (who have continued to wilfully target Donbas civilians) I will keep referring to as the Wehrmacht.
I will lose no sleep over their deaths. Not now , not ever

https://t.me/intelslava/24579

You call it unfortunate, regretful, I call it a catastrophe.

Like Madeline Albright, who said that 100,000 Iraqi children were a necessary price. I'm sorry but no.
And Saddam Hussein's Iraq, BTW, was a brutal dictatorship itself, who enacted a genocide on the Kurds, and earlier had invaded Kuwait and was none too welcomed there either. Before that it invaded Iran (at the behest of the same US), and used chemical weapons against them. Yet we can still say that the American invasion of Iraq was not for the benefit of the Iraqi people or the Kurds or whoever, but for American interests only, and enacted a brutal price upon the Iraqi population, as well as launching a 10-year long sectarian war and the division of the country between Israeli and Iranian interests.

With Kiev - if it was planning to attack the Donbass, then yes action had to be taken.
But the action I'm seeing, is the most stupid turn of events possible.

Putin was snookered by America, and then put into the same position as Saddam Hussein essentially, and ended up launching a calamitous invasion to get out of it, willingly walking into a trap. Although from the military point of view, the Iraqi army actually did a very good job with the brisk takeover of Kuwait. You can't say the same here.

Even the same Azov and Aidar Nazis - you can see by the interviews of the captives, that they're mostly just a bunch of drunks or bums, who simply wanted a paycheck, and those tattoos were their initiation rituals. Some of them are local. Yes there were crimes and tortures of civilians, over 1500 civilians in Mariupol alone have disappeared since 2014 - but that was done by the SBU or certain sections within Azov.

Putin had to be smarter. He was up to this point. Now he's just a criminal like Bush.

Re the dead bodies on that particular street in Bucha, there are as far as I can tell a number of different theories:

Civilians killed by shrapnel from careless Ukrainian shelling (seen that before).

Civilians killed by Ukrainian troops/NG/nationalist battalions, for any hint of "pro-Russianess" (seen that before).

Civilians that were armed as per the well-known Ukrainian policy of giving everyone a gun, thus not really "civilians" but actually "illegal combatants", that were killed as illegal combatants tend to be.

Civilians shot by Russian troops in anger, after the Russians were notified of the recurring instances of outright torture and summary executions of Russians (unlikely, if the bodies were indeed there for as long as some suggest, ie before those UA war crimes were widely known)

Civilians shot by Russian troops for no particular reason, or for the "reason" that Russians are just inherently evil or something (extremely unlikely, unheard of anywhere else, mind you there are many hundreds of cities/towns/settlements under Russian control in Ukraine now and if anything, the Russians have shown extreme restraint even when some local Kiev-loyal folks stage various actions).

People seem to just assume that the Russians are behaving as badly in Ukraine as the U.S. was in the Middle East. Projection, I suppose?

At any rate, the propaganda has gone through the roof. It reminds me so much of the entire Aleppo theater years ago. Massacres of innocent civilians were created out of the blue, various made-up "witnesses" were all over media etc. When the smoke cleared and all those headlines that they had been pushing for months turned out to be complete bunk, it was quietly dropped and never mentioned again. To be honest I don't even think the USSR or China ever had this level of control over the narratives and the ability to suddenly go 180 on something without anyone questioning it. North Korea, I guess, does.

And BTW, I'm not saying that Russia should withdraw or whatever

The events at Bucha showed that Kiev will kill its own people. There can be no withdrawal. Political options at this point aren't about who is right or wrong, but about what is possible.

Now the military and political leadership have to get their act together and figure out how to topple Kiev.
They can be judged later.

flamming_python wrote:And BTW, I'm not saying that Russia should withdraw or whatever

The events at Bucha showed that Kiev will kill its own people. There can be no withdrawal. Political options at this point aren't about who is right or wrong, but about what is possible.

Now the military and political leadership have to get their act together and figure out how to topple Kiev.
They can be judged later.

If they wanted to topple the regime they would have sent missiles and done away with them

They left zelensky and co.

Noone can claim to have any CLUE what the Kremlin wants at this point in time

In a month it might be something else, call it whatever you want ,

But noone has any clue, it's wishful thinking and the only examples to go by are Syria

Where they changed objectives month to month politically

Announced a withdrawal, and then stayed

So you and noone here can say anything as to what the intention is

It will drag on and maybe the anarchy benefits Kremlin in that it give justification to stay

Problems are fixed slowly, belgorod was hit, was it deliberate incompetence? Sure

Deliberate is the key word here, the Kremlin is a cynical calculating machine like any government

And here good vs evil tropes obscure what's really going on

Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Re the dead bodies on that particular street in Bucha, there are as far as I can tell a number of different theories:

Civilians killed by shrapnel from careless Ukrainian shelling (seen that before).

Civilians killed by Ukrainian troops/NG/nationalist battalions, for any hint of "pro-Russianess" (seen that before).

Civilians that were armed as per the well-known Ukrainian policy of giving everyone a gun, thus not really "civilians" but actually "illegal combatants", that were killed as illegal combatants tend to be.

Civilians shot by Russian troops in anger, after the former were notified of the torture and summary executions of Russians (unlikely, if the bodies were indeed there for as long as some suggest, ie before those UA war crimes were widely known)

Civilians shot by Russian troops for no particular reason, or for the "reason" that Russians are just inherently evil or something (extremely unlikely, unheard of anywhere else, mind you there are many hundreds of cities/towns/settlements under Russian control in Ukraine now and if anything, the Russians have shown extreme restraint even when some local Kiev-loyal folks stage various actions).

People seem to just assume that the Russians are behaving as badly in Ukraine as the U.S. was in the Middle East. Projection, I suppose?

IMO they are just collateral damages of shelling.

The mayor was there before the ukrainian troops and he said nothing about deads. The ukrainians wouldn't take the risk to kill randomly many civilians since plebty of whitness there.

IMO they just took the one that were already dead and made it look like a massacre.

I don't know how you could argument that russians need to do such attrocities in a mediatated war as this one. Russians may have killed some people that were involved in donbas war since 2014 and may have killed innocents thinking they were armed soldiers (happens during wars and when enemies are few hundreds meters away) but a mass shooting isn't what they would do. They have veen very cautious about not hurting civilians, why would they execute plenty of them this way ?

Ukraine is a total mess and those ukrainians nazi work with no coordibation just to spread lot of propaganda. Only the small group in that town that did this must know. Others weren't even told about that propaganda operation which makes it less likely to be discovered during trials.

JohninMK wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:There was no sky over our village. That’s why we went to the city to watch the moon and birds, on the other side of the river. The people in the city were not thrilled to have us, but they did not try to stop us. On one of the hills, where the brick church stood, they even built an observation platform. Since for some reason they considered us drinkers, in addition to benches and a pay telescope, they built a small tavern by the observation deck, and a police post.

.............................

We will come tomorrow. We will conquer or perish. There is no third way.

Either you have become suddenly very eloquent and verbose in English or that is someone else's work and you are stealing it.

Which is it?

I suspect Garry needs to have another word with you.

That's surkov, supposedly , but it's a look into "non linear" War

And how objectives can change through the war

It's called without sky, and talks about how a participant in the info war lost their sense of height and depth, only seeing black or white, yes or no

How wars weren't so clear anymore , and Ukraine is a big example of that sort of war

The objectives are not clear, and even if many could try to interpret it, the objectives constantly shift

And could be spun in anyway the participants want

OK so its not your words, its those of Surkov whoever he is.

Why, alone among posters here, do you persist in claiming, by not attributing to the actual author, that the words are yours?

Can't you get your head around the very simple rules of the Forum and the Internet on this?

You can ask the navy seal of the forum to verify next time

flamming_python wrote:


Even the same Azov and Aidar Nazis - you can see by the interviews of the captives, that they're mostly just a bunch of drunks or bums, who simply wanted a paycheck, and those tattoos were their initiation rituals. Some of them are local. Yes there were crimes and tortures of civilians, over 1500 civilians in Mariupol alone have disappeared since 2014 - but that was done by the SBU or certain sections within Azov.

Not really sure how to respond to this nonsense , if you’re able to justify to yourself that even Azov is mostly ok, you’re more lost than I thought.

Anyway back to the ground.

WARNING Graphic
I think those marines surrendering may have had something to do with getting the TOS treatment rather than not being able to because of their commanders or whatever their story was.
https://t.me/intelslava2/9

Push towards Slavyansk looks to be intensifying, seeing a lot more videos of RA on the front as well
https://t.me/anna_news/27503
https://t.me/swodki/63265

Say what you want about azov

Kremlin will deal with them exactly how they dealt with HTS , kill them in some places, leave them in others

FP, this is the only necessary thing for the fighters of Azov, Aidar, but also for a good part of the Ukrainian army ; GOOD SUPPLY OF BODY BAGS !!!

Arkanghelsk wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:There was no sky over our village. That’s why we went to the city to watch the moon and birds, on the other side of the river. The people in the city were not thrilled to have us, but they did not try to stop us. On one of the hills, where the brick church stood, they even built an observation platform. Since for some reason they considered us drinkers, in addition to benches and a pay telescope, they built a small tavern by the observation deck, and a police post.

.............................

We will come tomorrow. We will conquer or perish. There is no third way.

Either you have become suddenly very eloquent and verbose in English or that is someone else's work and you are stealing it.

Which is it?

I suspect Garry needs to have another word with you.

That's surkov, supposedly , but it's a look into "non linear" War

And how objectives can change through the war

It's called without sky, and talks about how a participant in the info war lost their sense of height and depth, only seeing black or white, yes or no

How wars weren't so clear anymore , and Ukraine is a big example of that sort of war

The objectives are not clear, and even if many could try to interpret it, the objectives constantly shift

And could be spun in anyway the participants want

Bucha, Phase 2 , sanctions, azov

It's all spun in the way any want to see

"Non-linear" war?

That's called having a plan to cover your own ass, but nothing else

No matter what the result actually is - Aha! That's what we wanted all along!

I get the Klausweitz doctrine. War as an extension of diplomacy, keep negotiating while you get more gains on the battlefield
Only the Ukraine isn't a lone actor but an extension of the West, so really it's diplomacy with the West and we're not close to KO'ing them, and any results on the battlefield don't much matter, as again the Kiev regime does not represent its own people, but the West's political interests - they can lose all their army and half their population will flee but they'll still "never surrender!".

Broski wrote:
Russians are basically the new N*ggers now. In Western Europe and the Anglo countries, you can't say anything bad about homosexuals, transvestites, women, non-white people, jewish people without potentially being cancelled and losing your job but you can denigrate Russians, physically  attack them and destroy their property without consequence. 

I agree with the rest, but luckily physical attacks are no-no and at least in the UK and some other countries, you can get in trouble for actually attacking or threatening Russian (or anyone else, and rightly so). It won't be reported in the news, but that's all. Even in Germany, Russians have the right to gather and express themselves. They are not a silent minority. It's a media hype mostly and all REAL anti-Russian actions will have backlash sooner or later. I am not talking about the Russian gov, but just like hate against black people or Arabs turned into a guilt complex and need to apologize and treat these people better than their own.

Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Re the dead bodies on that particular street in Bucha, there are as far as I can tell a number of different theories:

Civilians killed by shrapnel from careless Ukrainian shelling (seen that before).

Civilians killed by Ukrainian troops/NG/nationalist battalions, for any hint of "pro-Russianess" (seen that before).

Civilians that were armed as per the well-known Ukrainian policy of giving everyone a gun, thus not really "civilians" but actually "illegal combatants", that were killed as illegal combatants tend to be.

Civilians shot by Russian troops in anger, after the Russians were notified of the recurring instances of outright torture and summary executions of Russians (unlikely, if the bodies were indeed there for as long as some suggest, ie before those UA war crimes were widely known)

Civilians shot by Russian troops for no particular reason, or for the "reason" that Russians are just inherently evil or something (extremely unlikely, unheard of anywhere else, mind you there are many hundreds of cities/towns/settlements under Russian control in Ukraine now and if anything, the Russians have shown extreme restraint even when some local Kiev-loyal folks stage various actions).

People seem to just assume that the Russians are behaving as badly in Ukraine as the U.S. was in the Middle East. Projection, I suppose?

At any rate, the propaganda has gone through the roof. It reminds me so much of the entire Aleppo theater years ago. Massacres of innocent civilians were created out of the blue, various made-up "witnesses" were all over media etc. When the smoke cleared and all those headlines that they had been pushing for months turned out to be complete bunk, it was quietly dropped and never mentioned again. To be honest I don't even think the USSR or China ever had this level of control over the narratives and the ability to suddenly go 180 on something without anyone questioning it. North Korea, I guess, does.

There are only 2 possibilities really, given that the bodies were fresh, max. 24 hours old, the first footage seemed to be filmed and photo'd on April 2nd, while on March 31st the mayor of the city was already saying that Russian forces had left, the town was liberated, and made no mention about any massacres or bodies. This alone rules out any other theories about angry Russian troops shooting everyone and then leaving all the dead bodies there as evidence while they withdrew.

Those possibilities being:

1. They were shelled. Likely with Grads, given the absence of craters and the wholeness of the corpses. Grad rockets kill using thousands of ball bearings as shrapnel, explode typically a little bit above the ground, and the actual explosion is small - therefore no craters, and no torn-apart bodies. One can see that at least some of the corpses were in the middle of various activities. Riding bikes, or walking on the pavement. A Grad rocket travels faster than sound, so you'll have no warning - simply if you're close enough to it, you'll drop over dead, or otherwise die very quickly. Whereas in a shooting everyone will run for cover - you likely won't find bodies on the pavement or on their bikes unless the rare one who was the first to be shot. There was a rumour right when it happened that indeed Bucha was shelled.
In theory it could be Russia that shelled them. In practice they would have no reason to - and shelling civilian areas is very much part of the Ukrainian regime's modus operandi as we've seen in the Donbass.

2. They were shot by regime troops/nationalists. There's that video the Azov extremist posted where one guy asks if he can shoot the guys without blue tape - albeit this video might have been part of the psy-ops. There were reports, confirmed by themselves, of the Ukrainian national guard hunting down collaborators. One politician even boasted about one local in particular who took rides on Russian tanks now feeding worms. What lends credence to this theory as well as the strange position of some of the corpses all facing the same direction, as if placed there, while others being next to things like walls or cars - that don't have a scratch on them; indicating that they were shot and then placed there. As well as some having white arm bands, again as if on purpose, sending a message.

It might be a combination of both

flamming_python wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:There was no sky over our village. That’s why we went to the city to watch the moon and birds, on the other side of the river. The people in the city were not thrilled to have us, but they did not try to stop us. On one of the hills, where the brick church stood, they even built an observation platform. Since for some reason they considered us drinkers, in addition to benches and a pay telescope, they built a small tavern by the observation deck, and a police post.

.............................

We will come tomorrow. We will conquer or perish. There is no third way.

Either you have become suddenly very eloquent and verbose in English or that is someone else's work and you are stealing it.

Which is it?

I suspect Garry needs to have another word with you.

That's surkov, supposedly , but it's a look into "non linear" War

And how objectives can change through the war

It's called without sky, and talks about how a participant in the info war lost their sense of height and depth, only seeing black or white, yes or no

How wars weren't so clear anymore , and Ukraine is a big example of that sort of war

The objectives are not clear, and even if many could try to interpret it, the objectives constantly shift

And could be spun in anyway the participants want

Bucha, Phase 2 , sanctions, azov

It's all spun in the way any want to see

"Non-linear" war?

That's called having a plan to cover your own ass, but nothing else

No matter what the result actually is - Aha! That's what we wanted all along!

I get the Klausweitz doctrine. War as an extension of diplomacy, keep negotiating while you get more gains on the battlefield
Only the Ukraine isn't a lone actor but an extension of the West, so really it's diplomacy with the West and we're not close to KO'ing them, and any results on the battlefield don't much matter, as again the Kiev regime does not represent its own people, but the West's political interests - they can lose all their army and half their population will flee but they'll still "never surrender!".

That's the whole point of "non linear war"

You can spin your way out , like Bush did with mission accomplished, and Obama did, and Trump, and Biden

They all do it, spinning narratives

The Kremlin does it too, and it's a good thing that the US does not have a monopoly on "creating reality "

Arkanghelsk wrote:
That's the whole point of "non linear war"

You can spin your way out , like Bush did with mission accomplished, and Obama did, and Trump, and Biden

They all do it, spinning narratives

The Kremlin does it too, and it's a good thing that the US does not have a monopoly on "creating reality "

Problem is you create uncertainty, in a liberation mission, for the people on your side - your own population and your sympathisers in enemy territory

Nothing is explained.

Who in Kherson is going to want to co-operate with Russia now, if they don't know if Russia will withdraw tomorrow and they'll end up as yet another corpse with a white arm band for some propaganda stunt about Russian atrocities?

You need to get the message across by other means, if you can't directly for diplomatic reasons - that no-one will be betrayed, you aren't withdrawing, you won't lose, and that you will carry on liberating territory. You can't ask people to just believe in it when the evidence so far points to you doing otherwise, and in fact indicates only the lack of competence of your strategy

Hence why it's important for Russia now to get the Donbass down, and force a big surrender. And then after that, move on Kharkov and Nikolayev.