2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #2

kvs wrote:

spotter wrote:This war is turning into a literal disaster for Armenia and PR disaster for Russia. Azeri drones are dancing around Russian built AD systems and pulverizing them with impunity. In the same day, Azeri forces humiliated Armenian AD by destroying their latest system, Tor-M2KM (in addition to another 9K33 Osa sam destroyed), and then they shot down Russian Mi-24P.

No really, i wonder if it can get any worse? They're having a walk in the park against Russian AD systems. So far, Azeris destroyed: Tor-M2KM, S-300PS, 2K12 Kub, 9K35 Strela-10, 9K33 Osa, R-330P Piramida-I EW, Repellent-1 EW. Let's not forget the same Turkish made drones humiliated Pantsir-S1 in Libya.

Hopefully, every country that relies on the Russian made ADs will pause for a moment and start thinking. This is a serious lesson. Armenians suffered a complete military debacle due to inability to counter Azeri TB2 drones.

Propaganda drivel.   Whether yours or not does not matter.

NK is hardly armed with the latest Russian AD systems.   Too much BS that makes them seem better armed than Armenia itself.
And we saw the stellar success of US AD systems in Saudi Arabia against drone attacks....

This talk reminds me of the Pantsir taken out by Israel in Syria which was used to claim that it was a crap system.  Somehow
the competence of the operators was not a factor.  

Serbs showed the even old Soviet AD systems can take out F-117A's.   American wunderwaffen like no other that Russia/USSR could
never hope to design and build.   Every single Azeri drone was detectable with even 1950s radars.   So any failure lies at the hands
of the operators and not Russian system designers.  

From what I have seen in this conflict, the NK Armenians were smoking crack thinking that the Azeris are not any sort of serious
threat.  With this sort of mentality it is not surprising that they did not get their act together and use what resources they had
properly.

Especially since these systems works fine under Russian use as seen in Syria.  It is entirely operator and the defense admin of NK and Armenia not even using their AD properly all times.  Then again, they have also shot down a lot of drones too.

Anyway, some people are just morons KVS.

Isos wrote:Yes it's a tor Ahmedfire.

This is also proof that giving people who have no idea how to embed the AD systems, newer AD systems, is a bad idea.

spotter wrote:This war is turning into a literal disaster for Armenia and PR disaster for Russia. Azeri drones are dancing around Russian built AD systems and pulverizing them with impunity. In the same day, Azeri forces humiliated Armenian AD by destroying their latest system, Tor-M2KM (in addition to another 9K33 Osa sam destroyed), and then they shot down Russian Mi-24P.

No really, i wonder if it can get any worse? They're having a walk in the park against Russian AD systems. So far, Azeris destroyed: Tor-M2KM, S-300PS, 2K12 Kub, 9K35 Strela-10, 9K33 Osa, R-330P Piramida-I EW, Repellent-1 EW. Let's not forget the same Turkish made drones humiliated Pantsir-S1 in Libya.

Hopefully, every country that relies on the Russian made ADs will pause for a moment and start thinking. This is a serious lesson. Armenians suffered a complete military debacle due to inability to counter Azeri TB2 drones.

BS , actually in Libya most of the hits against Pantsir were inside shelters . And most of the Turkish drones were downed .

Here too ,S-300 wasn't working and Tor inside shelter .

The Russians didn't say these systems are indestructible but it could be hit under a specific conditions . Their airbase in Syria is well protected till now with the same ADs.

Studying such cases and conditions should be done by academic ways not by such stupid comments .

ahmedfire wrote:

spotter wrote:This war is turning into a literal disaster for Armenia and PR disaster for Russia. Azeri drones are dancing around Russian built AD systems and pulverizing them with impunity. In the same day, Azeri forces humiliated Armenian AD by destroying their latest system, Tor-M2KM (in addition to another 9K33 Osa sam destroyed), and then they shot down Russian Mi-24P.

No really, i wonder if it can get any worse? They're having a walk in the park against Russian AD systems. So far, Azeris destroyed: Tor-M2KM, S-300PS, 2K12 Kub, 9K35 Strela-10, 9K33 Osa, R-330P Piramida-I EW, Repellent-1 EW. Let's not forget the same Turkish made drones humiliated Pantsir-S1 in Libya.

Hopefully, every country that relies on the Russian made ADs will pause for a moment and start thinking. This is a serious lesson. Armenians suffered a complete military debacle due to inability to counter Azeri TB2 drones.

BS , actually in Libya most of the hits against Pantsir were inside shelters . And most of the Turkish drones were downed .

Here too ,S-300 wasn't working and Tor inside shelter .

The Russians didn't say these systems are indestructible but it could be hit under a specific conditions . Their airbase in Syria is well protected till now with the same ADs.

Studying such cases and conditions should be done by academic ways not by such stupid comments .

Good post.

Layered defenses is needed. But that becomes expensive and rather difficult for these nations. So instead, a layered defense structure with older and newer equipment must be made. Like how Iran has a layered defense structure with a good mix of old and new. They (Iran) do not have these problems. Their AD structure tends to work quite well like Russia's. And most of their AD systems are either Russian or a Mix.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

spotter wrote:This war is turning into a literal disaster for Armenia and PR disaster for Russia. Azeri drones are dancing around Russian built AD systems and pulverizing them with impunity. In the same day, Azeri forces humiliated Armenian AD by destroying their latest system, Tor-M2KM (in addition to another 9K33 Osa sam destroyed), and then they shot down Russian Mi-24P.

No really, i wonder if it can get any worse? They're having a walk in the park against Russian AD systems. So far, Azeris destroyed: Tor-M2KM, S-300PS, 2K12 Kub, 9K35 Strela-10, 9K33 Osa, R-330P Piramida-I EW, Repellent-1 EW. Let's not forget the same Turkish made drones humiliated Pantsir-S1 in Libya.

Hopefully, every country that relies on the Russian made ADs will pause for a moment and start thinking. This is a serious lesson. Armenians suffered a complete military debacle due to inability to counter Azeri TB2 drones.

You are over estimating Turkish claims.  That is for sure.

Dancing around AD not in use isn't really that hard either.

Bad for Armenia, not so much for Russia.  The bad part is this shootdown.  But it just happened so we will see what the end results will be.

Which PR disaster?

Those systems are not particularly useful against small low drones. Pantsir has no problem, on the other hand, and they have been destroyed only if operated incorrectly  (when unoperative and not protected by other pantsir).
As pointed out by other users also the new 57 mm gun would be quite useful on this kind of operations.

How much money has Armenia recently spent on modern  Russian weapon systems?

And just a curiosity... after a couple of posts all in 2013 you come back in the forum just to say in which horrible nightmare Russia is?

quoting wrong guy there comrade.

The argument that the side using outdated Russian air-defences does not really fly here. They used a various mix of all kinds of systems and they still eventually got whacked. It is also clear that the drone situation is not handled. No systems were provided to Armenia or Russian training of a CSTO member's air-defence troops was so inadequate that a high-flying, low-speed target was outside of their means to engage. What would happen if they got targeted by a NATO attack via cruise-missiles? That would end Armenia in a matter of minutes.

Why would anyone bother to buy Russian-made AD when it is proven to be ineffective to anyone but Russia? (The effectiveness of the AD systems in Russia itself is something that we will never fully know to begin with, as the only real action they have seen recently was Syria, against makeshift drones) Even if these systems are top-tier, why bother layering out air-defences in any regions that have terrible terrain for them? Why bother to have air-defences in the first place if a cheaper alternative (F-16's, Mig-29's, Rafale) exists and will deal with the vast majority of the problems you are likely to face on the battle-field?

Azerbaijan attacked a helicopter flying in Armenia proper. Even if it was an Armenian Mi-24, that would still constitute an act of aggression. If the Russians do nothing and it is likely that nothing will be done, then why would anyone bother to enter into a security treaty with them? That they would express solemn concerns over the entire situation? Enact some light sanctions that will later be suspended or new trade-deals written with the aggressor country? Forgive and forget the aggression and continue trade? (As was done in Ukraine, despite it being clear that it will never be pro-Russian again)

The lack of Russian action over this is a prelude to more aggressive actions taken by Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey (in Syria and Libya), Baltic States / Poland (Belarus) and the United States (all over the world). The Russians might as well have the best combat systems on the planet, though it means fuck all if they are never used...

Iskander launches? Video at link.

Yuri Lyamin
@imp_navigator
·
14m
Quality of video isn't good, but looks like these are launches of missile from Armenian "Iskander" operational-tactical missile systems

https://twitter.com/imp_navigator/status/1325902479830167553

The level of Turkey's assistance, definitely not a couple of Colonels.

nero wrote:The argument that the side using outdated Russian air-defences does not really fly here. They used a various mix of all kinds of systems and they still eventually got whacked. It is also clear that the drone situation is not handled. No systems were provided to Armenia or Russian training of a CSTO member's air-defence troops was so inadequate that a high-flying, low-speed target was outside of their means to engage. What would happen if they got targeted by a NATO attack via cruise-missiles? That would end Armenia in a matter of minutes.

You're daft if you think mere ownership of equipment is enough to achieve successful outcomes. The Serbs have shown that excellent training and well-thought out tactics more than makes up for obsolete equipment, and the Russians have all three training, tactics, and technology going for them, hence their success. The bumbling Saudis have the best AD equipment money can buy and yet even second-rate Iranian drones have blown their shit up.

Why would anyone bother to buy Russian-made AD when it is proven to be ineffective to anyone but Russia? (The effectiveness of the AD systems in Russia itself is something that we will never fully know to begin with, as the only real action they have seen recently was Syria, against makeshift drones) Even if these systems are top-tier, why bother layering out air-defences in any regions that have terrible terrain for them? Why bother to have air-defences in the first place if a cheaper alternative (F-16's, Mig-29's, Rafale) exists and will deal with the vast majority of the problems you are likely to face on the battle-field?

Maybe because the weapons procurement managers of said countries aren't swayed by weak propaganda and have access to classified performance evaluations involving millions of dollars in live fire testing in combat conditions whenever they phone Rosoboronexport for a quote. Maybe they aren't idiots like you?

Azerbaijan attacked a helicopter flying in Armenia proper. Even if it was an Armenian Mi-24, that would still constitute an act of aggression. If the Russians do nothing and it is likely that nothing will be done, then why would anyone bother to enter into a security treaty with them? That they would express solemn concerns over the entire situation? Enact some light sanctions that will later be suspended or new trade-deals written with the aggressor country? Forgive and forget the aggression and continue trade? (As was done in Ukraine, despite it being clear that it will never be pro-Russian again)

You preface with If, yet speak as if its set in stone. Care to illuminate next week's lottery numbers?

The lack of Russian action over this is a prelude to more aggressive actions taken by Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey (in Syria and Libya), Baltic States / Poland (Belarus) and the United States (all over the world). The Russians might as well have the best combat systems on the planet, though it means fuck all if they are never used...

No sh*t Sherlock, that's what they do, since IDK the founding of Russia. And yet a thousand years later and these losers have seen their mighty empires crumble into irrelevant shitholes, and yet Russia stands. Demoralizing to say the least.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Armenia has been courting the west in the past 2 years and even before invested nothing in its security. Moscow isn't their capital anymore,  so they cannot pretend that Russia would give them anything for free. Alliances do not work that way.

Armenia is one of the few countries that recognize Crimea as Russian and have supported them in practically all of their campaigns in Syria and beyond. Regardless of what the current government does, Russia has a defense treaty with Armenia, not it's current government. And maybe Armenia's choice to 'court' the West is correct after all? Given that the Russians do not seem to be doing anything for them lately.

I guess it is time for Russia to sell it's S-400 systems to the Azerbaijanis. That seems to be the 'go to' strategy in their foreign policy, after someone shoots down their planes.

Here's a good quote from telegram:

А вы когда-нибудь могли себе представить, что мужчина скажет:

– «Я позитивно оцениваю, что сосед из 88 квартиры незамедлительно признал то, что трахнул мою жену»

В МГИМО видимо такому учат. Анналы мировой дипломатии просто.

You preface with If, yet speak as if its set in stone. Care to illuminate next week's lottery numbers?

...

Moscow positively assesses Azerbaijan's recognition of its guilt for the downed Russian helicopter. - Russian Foreign Ministry

Azerbaijan has assured that those responsible for the incident with the Russian helicopter will be punished, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

It is going to end there.

Oh and while this is happening in St Petes:

https://twitter.com/Archer83Able/status/1325902147175796741

The cuckery is insane.

Shushi has been surrendered, the Azerbaijani army is on the outskirts of Stepanakert, and Pashinyan sends congratulations to Biden

What a faggot!

magnumcromagnon wrote:Shushi has been surrendered, the Azerbaijani army is on the outskirts of Stepanakert, and Pashinyan sends congratulations to Biden

What a faggot!

topwar has an english version of the site. Just put "en." without the quotes before topwar to access it.

miketheterrible wrote:
You are over estimating Turkish claims. That is for sure.

Dancing around AD not in use isn't really that hard either.

Not sure what you mean, tbh. Nobody talks about Turkish claims.
We're dealing with visually confirmed evidence (geolocated by widely known Oryx and CaucaususWarReport).
Your statement about "isn't in use" sadly implies you do not follow all of this very much. Azeris are routinely destroying active SAM systems, if you take some time you'll find tons of video footage from TB2. Both Tor and Osa destroyed today were active with TB2 in their range and yet SAMs did not engage.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Which PR disaster?

Those systems are not particularly useful against small low drones. Pantsir has no problem, on the other hand, and they have been destroyed only if operated incorrectly (when unoperative and not protected by other pantsir).
As pointed out by other users also the new 57 mm gun would be quite useful on this kind of operations.

How much money has Armenia recently spent on modern Russian weapon systems?

And just a curiosity... after a couple of posts all in 2013 you come back in the forum just to say in which horrible nightmare Russia is?

Finally a restrained and mature post.
Back then the forum sounded a bit fanboyish for my taste, tbh. You know, openly insulting people, calling out names and such. But the recent development that shocked many (incredible UAV efficiency against Russian made SAMs) led me to try to get more answers.
So don't worry mate, i'm sure Russia is safe and sound and not in a nightmare. All of this is a terrible PR for their defence industry and power projection imho. You may decide to differ ofc.

As for the Pantsir-S1, i know what you mean, however, there are very clear footages of active/operational Pantsirs being destroyed in Libya and Syria. Did you have a chance to see such vids?
Secondly, TB2 is not really a small drone. Nobody claims that any AD is indestructible, however, what shocks people is the sheer amount of destruction ratio. So far, in NK, TBs scored 17 SAM kills plus 9 radar kills at the loss of 1 (one) confirmed downed and one crashed (downed or technical failure). Add to that multiple confirmed kills in Syria and Libya (some Pantsirs were in stowed position, some fire-ready).

So one would have to ask: Can we blame all of those on the poor crew training? Really?

spotter wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:
You are over estimating Turkish claims. That is for sure.

Dancing around AD not in use isn't really that hard either.

Not sure what you mean, tbh. Nobody talks about Turkish claims.
We're dealing with visually confirmed evidence (geolocated by widely known Oryx and CaucaususWarReport).
Your statement about "isn't in use" sadly implies you do not follow all of this very much. Azeris are routinely destroying active SAM systems, if you take some time you'll find tons of video footage from TB2. Both Tor and Osa destroyed today were active with TB2 in their range and yet SAMs did not engage.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Which PR disaster?

Those systems are not particularly useful against small low drones. Pantsir has no problem, on the other hand, and they have been destroyed only if operated incorrectly (when unoperative and not protected by other pantsir).
As pointed out by other users also the new 57 mm gun would be quite useful on this kind of operations.

How much money has Armenia recently spent on modern Russian weapon systems?

And just a curiosity... after a couple of posts all in 2013 you come back in the forum just to say in which horrible nightmare Russia is?

Finally a restrained and mature post.
Back then the forum sounded a bit fanboyish for my taste, tbh. You know, openly insulting people, calling out names and such. But the recent development that shocked many (incredible UAV efficiency against Russian made SAMs) led me to try to get more answers.
So don't worry mate, i'm sure Russia is safe and sound and not in a nightmare. All of this is a terrible PR for their defence industry and power projection imho. You may decide to differ ofc.

As for the Pantsir-S1, i know what you mean, however, there are very clear footages of active/operational Pantsirs being destroyed in Libya and Syria. Did you have a chance to see such vids?
Secondly, TB2 is not really a small drone. Nobody claims that any AD is indestructible, however, what shocks people is the sheer amount of destruction ratio. So far, in NK, TBs scored 17 SAM kills plus 9 radar kills at the loss of 1 (one) confirmed downed and one crashed (downed or technical failure). Add to that multiple confirmed kills in Syria and Libya (some Pantsirs were in stowed position, some fire-ready).

So one would have to ask: Can we blame all of those on the poor crew training? Really?

This is untrue. The TB-2 did not attack the Tor in operational mode.

It literally waited until it folded before targeting the shelter.
In all it took 4 assets (maybe 5) to hit it.

1. 1 Harop (at least 1)
2. 2 TB-2 (overwatch and strike).
3. 1 Fixed wing manned AC.
4. 1 Strike AC (Su-25).

As for Pantsir...Jeez it was open season for TB’s before the Turks had to bring a battalion worth of assets and 3 frigates to actually start hitting them. 8 Pantsir were destroyed (4 in non active mode) vs 22 TB-2 proven in Libya.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

This is untrue. The TB-2 did not attack the Tor in operational mode.

It literally waited until it folded before targeting the shelter.
In all it took 4 assets (maybe 5) to hit it.

1. 1 Harop (at least 1)
2. 2 TB-2 (overwatch and strike).
3. 1 Fixed wing manned AC.
4. 1 Strike AC (Su-25).

Have you seen the entire video? TB2 seems to be well within the Tor's missile range while it was active. Yet it was not engaged by the SAM. The issue that keeps repeating is that Russian SAMs apparently have a tremendously difficult time detecting drones.

KoTeMoRe wrote:This is untrue. The TB-2 did not attack the Tor in operational mode.

It literally waited until it folded before targeting the shelter.
In all it took 4 assets (maybe 5) to hit it.

1. 1 Harop (at least 1)
2. 2 TB-2  (overwatch and strike).
3. 1 Fixed wing manned AC.
4. 1 Strike AC (Su-25).

As for Pantsir...Jeez it was open season for TB’s before the Turks had to bring a battalion worth of assets and 3 frigates to actually start hitting them. 8 Pantsir were destroyed (4 in non active mode) vs 22 TB-2 proven in Libya.

And it was just a coincidence that, when the TB2's started dropping, several Mig-29's were seen in Libyan skies. I am sure

The Azerbaijani's have just won the war. A ceasefire agreement was reached by Moscow, Yerevan and Baku. It likely relates to keeping the current situation as is. Shushi in Azeri hands and Stepanakert a stone's throw away if Baku decides to reignite the conflict with most of southern NK in Azeri hands.