Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:...I have doubts about Chinese aesa radar capabilities. China was asking Russian electronic firms for help in developing the radar system for the j-20 less than ten years ago. Now it certainly could be the case that they have been massively funding the progress in that field. I get the feeling that PESA offers similar abilities at lower cost and that Russia is holding off until the change in capabilities is enough to warrant the cost.

For the J-16 all they needed was a radar that was good enough in comparison with the older Russian radar in the Su-30MKK.
You should not underestimate the Chinese electronics industry. The Chinese are one of the leading manufacturers of telecommunications equipment. The basic technology for cellphone stations and antennas is not that different from the one used in radars. Those also use GaA and GaN. They also operate at similar wavelengths. The Chinese also have one of the best semiconductor industries. What they might have lacked was the expertise on the basic algorithms and radar design proper rather than the fundamental electronics technology and the ability to manufacture it in quantity. What makes the most sense to manufacture for Russia and China is likely not the same since the manufacturing expertise domains are also not the same.

You are correct about their telecom work and bring up good points. I don't doubt the abilities of mainland China one bit. In fact I have a serious concern that they will surely overtake us here in the west very soon. I'd say that this is s bad thing but frankly I loathe western politicians nearly as much as the leadership over in mainland China.

My previous comment was more a bitter swipe at western military analysts and their strange biases.

The_Observer wrote:That's quite a stretch. Which companies? Unless you think TSMC is Chinese.
The semiconductor industry is actually one of the areas where the Chinese are lacking.

SMIC is one of the top 5 largest foundry businesses in the world.
SMIC already can manufacture chips at 14nm. This year they will start manufacturing at 10nm with their N+1 process.
China has another large foundry company in Shanghai that is HLMC. HLMC can manufacture at 22nm.

Only countries with better process technology are Taiwan and South Korea.
Last year the PRC surpassed the USA and Japan in semiconductor production capacity in wafers per month.

HiSilicon, part of Huawei, was in the top 10 semiconductor businesses in the world by revenue until Huawei got sanctioned.
HiSilicon designed the chips and manufactured them in Taiwan until the sanctions hit.
This is similar to what Qualcomm in the US does. Or what Baikal Electronics in Russia does.

YMTC manufactures NAND Flash and CXMT manufactures DRAM.
YMTC announced they sampled 1.33Tb 128-layer QLC 3D NAND Flash chips last year.

AMEC produces plasma etcher tools which are used by leading edge semiconductor manufacturers like TSMC.

The US sanctioned sales of Intel processors to China back when Obama was President to cripple their supercomputers.
So the Chinese designed and manufactured their own processors and supercomputer, the at the time number 1 supercomputer in the world, the Sunway TaihuLight.

Had the USA not imposed bans on sales of high end manufacturing tools to China like they did with EUV the Chinese would have even better technology.
This means 5nm and below are right now out of reach for Chinese manufacturers. Only South Korean and Taiwanese foundries can manufacture with level of detail.
To resolve this situation China is building its own EUV machine tools. Recently they announced they were able to manufacture lenses with the required specifications.
They are still working on the light source for the semiconductor lithography process.

lancelot wrote:

TMA1 wrote:...I have doubts about Chinese aesa radar capabilities. China was asking Russian electronic firms for help in developing the radar system for the j-20 less than ten years ago. Now it certainly could be the case that they have been massively funding the progress in that field. I get the feeling that PESA offers similar abilities at lower cost and that Russia is holding off until the change in capabilities is enough to warrant the cost.

For the J-16 all they needed was a radar that was good enough in comparison with the older Russian radar in the Su-30MKK.
You should not underestimate the Chinese electronics industry. The Chinese are one of the leading manufacturers of telecommunications equipment. The basic technology for cellphone stations and antennas is not that different from the one used in radars. Those also use GaA and GaN. They also operate at similar wavelengths. The Chinese also have one of the best semiconductor industries. What they might have lacked was the expertise on the basic algorithms and radar design proper rather than the fundamental electronics technology and the ability to manufacture it in quantity. What makes the most sense to manufacture for Russia and China is likely not the same since the manufacturing expertise domains are also not the same.

Yeah but there is a lack of overlap into the military side of things from the consumer side. China uses French radar and sonar clones for their submarines. They still s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ borrow designs for military stuff.

lancelot wrote:

The_Observer wrote:That's quite a stretch. Which companies? Unless you think TSMC is Chinese.
The semiconductor industry is actually one of the areas where the Chinese are lacking.

SMIC is one of the top 5 largest foundry businesses in the world.
SMIC already can manufacture chips at 14nm. This year they will start manufacturing at 10nm with their N+1 process.
China has another large foundry company in Shanghai that is HLMC. HLMC can manufacture at 22nm.

SMIC has started making 7nm recently. Source

Once they finally nail down EUV they'll be able to make them even smaller. They acquired something from ASML for this so it is likely already on the horizon; probably a few years until they enter initial production.

Anyways, with the recent component crisis they are going to make a lot of money even with >14nm. Most consumer grade electronics use Cortex-M's (3, 4, 7's) which are normally 20-100 nm.

nero wrote:SMIC has started making 7nm recently. Source

Once they finally nail down EUV they'll be able to make them even smaller. They acquired something from ASML for this so it is likely already on the horizon; probably a few years until they enter initial production.

Anyways, with the recent component crisis they are going to make a lot of money even with >14nm. Most consumer grade electronics use Cortex-M's (3, 4, 7's) which are normally 20-100 nm.

There is a lot of misinformation in the net about this. SMIC N+1 is roughly equivalent to 10nm. N+2 is the one that is supposed to be equivalent to 7nm.
SMIC's N+1 process has reached initial production status but is not in mass production yet. The SMIC 14nm FinFET process is supposedly in mass production and has reached good yield rates. i.e. most of the chips produced with that process are working and at spec.

SMIC purchased an EUV lithography machine from ASML two years ago. But then the machine supposedly burned up in a "fire" and Uncle Sham put the screws on ASML and the Netherlands government to block the sale. So the machine was never delivered to SMIC although they paid for it.

Uncle Sham is currently working on blocking sales of even DUV equipment which can produce 10nm and 7nm from being sold to SMIC. They are supposedly going to squeeze ASML (Netherlands) and Nikon (Japan) to do that. Because, in case you did not know, that superpower of semiconductors Uncle Sham cannot manufacture lithography machines on their own. Not even old lithography machines like the 90nm ones China can manufacture. What Uncle Sham can manufacture is the light source used for EUV by Cymer, a US subsidiary of Dutch ASML. The Japanese have their own competing EUV light source but no machine to put it on yet.

According to Scott Ritter, the USAF has run simulations that project a 20:1 kill ratio for F-22 fighter jets against Su-30 series aircraft. What is disturbing about this conjecture is not whether it is true, but the fact that NATO, Israel, and the US military believe it to be true.

What is a S-30? I know of an Su-30 but not S-30.  And which variant? It isn't like they know what is entailed to newest variant used by Russia.

Also, from actual tests against older Su-30MKI, most aircraft lost against it.

But yeah, simulations are always fact.  I seem to recall reading such simulations going back to early 2000's and what then?  They still lost in real training. Either against Rafale or Su-30MKI.

Also, T/R modules for military aren't the same for civilian. This same concept goes for nearly every semiconductor. Hence why they don't use civil parts for military. China, Russia nor USA does. I can't say for the rest. I just know for fact Russia and USA don't.

miketheterrible wrote:What is a S-30? I know of an Su-30 but not S-30.  And which variant? It isn't like they know what is entailed to newest variant used by Russia.

Also, from actual tests against older Su-30MKI, most aircraft lost against it.

But yeah, simulations are always fact.  I seem to recall reading such simulations going back to early 2000's and what then?  They still lost in real training. Either against Rafale or Su-30MKI.

Also, T/R modules for military aren't the same for civilian. This same concept goes for nearly every semiconductor.  Hence why they don't use civil parts for military. China, Russia nor USA does.  I can't say for the rest. I just know for fact Russia and USA don't.

They also said America was the best prepared to handle a pandemic on some shitty infographic......we all know how that turned out.

You would have to ask a lot of questions about any simulated combat between F-22s and Su-30s.

First of all which model Su-30... they range in performance from being an Su-27UB two seat Su-27, which is not a bad aircraft of course, right through to the newest Su-30s which are essentially going to be two seat Su-35s.

Also what was the situation... are we talking about 187 F-22s vs the dozen or two Venezuelan Su-30s?

If that is the case then the US is in trouble...

US simulations showed the west would wipe the floor with the Soviet fighters of the 1980s... till the 1990s and got to train and test and found they were in serious trouble and spent a large amount of money on AMRAAM so they didn't have to fly within visual range of Soviet fighters in combat... so they don't get their arses handed to them if they ever come up against a competent enemy.

If someone want to realize what is really behind the odd…...for not say anything worse……exchange ratio claimed by Lockheed Martin employers for theirs products against unspecified enemy fighter threats, both in computer simulations than in simulations with actual pilots involved, can read those submissions to Australian Parlamient in particular those of Chris Mills and Michael Price (for computer simulations) and Lt.Col Anker Sorensen (a chief pilot personally involved in combat simulations of F-35).


https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Foreign_Affairs_Defence_and_Trade/Joint_fighter/Submissions


Anyone will easily realise how self-embarrassing tricks are employed without any shame to ridiculously obtain the wanted results to present to scarcely knowledgeable political characters and even several military ones to promote the financial flow toward theirs program.

The thing is that the F-22 is out of production so what are they trying to achieve?

Are they trying to intimidate a country that currently has Su-30s or is considering buying Su-30s into buying F-35s instead, or will they suggest that perhaps the new build F-15s are the closest they can currently get to an F-22.

Or with the failure of the F-35 they are feeling a bit vulnerable so they want to pretend their existing fleet of F-22s is worth something?

What were the conclusions or recomendations with the article... perhaps they sniff blood in the water and think if the USAF wants to put the F-15 back into production and possibly a F-16 variant back into production that maybe they might be able to swing putting the F-22 back into production too.

It was cut for being too expensive now that the Cold War was over, but the current situation could be considered a new Cold War couldn't it?

During the first cold war the US president never openly called the opposition leader a murderer with no soul.

Of course if they did I wonder what the Soviet leader would have said in reply... would it have been as clever as Putin telling him he is looking in a mirror and describing himself.

Then there was the US air marshall who said that the Indian su 30 had the same turn radius as the
F-22 at red flag exercises. Or something to that effect anyway

Hmmm the comments got turned off on this video now.

https://youtu.be/6KBmv6HBltM

I think this are Su-34s

They celebrated some time ago the US Navy day with a picture of the Peter the Great I think... at least they have good taste

No-one ever accuses US Senators of being overly clever... its important after all that they represent their constituents!!

Thrust for the better: Su-30SM fighters will get a heavy-duty upgrade

The vehicles will be upgraded to the Super-Sukhoi SM2 variant.»

Russian Su-30SM fighters will be upgraded. They will be upgraded to the Super-Dry CM2 modification. The vehicles will receive a highly maneuverable engine, as well as unique radars. In addition, their arsenal will be significantly expanded. It will include the latest guided aerial bombs and missiles. According to experts, such modernization will significantly increase the potential of Russian combat aviation.
Sukhoi place: the latest fighter jets will be delivered to the naval aviation industry
Izvestia learned details of the contract for the purchase of Su-30SM2 combat vehicles

All on the " deuce»

As sources in the military department told Izvestia, a fundamental decision on upgrading the Su-30SM fleet to the CM2 level has already been made. It is planned that the work will be completed before 2027. Under the upgrade will fall not only fighters of the Aerospace Forces, but also naval aviation. However, according to the interlocutors of the publication, the exact number of "thirty", which will be upgraded to the level of the Su-30SM2, has not yet been determined.

Currently, the Russian Defense Ministry has already signed a contract for the supply of just over two dozen Su-30s in the SM2 variant. This was announced last year by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. The total cost of the order will be more than 100 billion rubles. But these machines will be released from scratch. It is planned that they will replenish the fleet of two naval assault air regiments, as well as at least one VKS squadron.

Now "Sukhoi" of the thirtieth series in the basic version of the SM — the most numerous type of modern fighters in service with Russia. As part of the VKS and naval aviation of the Navy, today there are about 130 vehicles. Su-30SM aircraft were also delivered to the armed forces of the CSTO member states. Several dozen Su-30SM aircraft were purchased by Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

Since 2015, domestic engineers have been working to increase the combat capabilities of the Su-30SM. In particular, it was decided to unify the Su-30SM and Su-35S as much as possible. To do this, the preparation of a version of the "thirty" with a new engine began, as well as the possibility of installing a much more powerful Irbis radar on the fighter instead of the current "Leopard". The index of this variant was changed to Su-30SM2.

As part of the modernization, the developers are solving the problem of installing the AL-41F-1C engine on the Su-30SM2, which is equipped with super-maneuverable Su-35S fighters. Compared to the current Su-30SM powerplant, the thrust of the new "engine" is increased by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. The service life of the aircraft engine has doubled immediately, up to 4 thousand hours, without increasing the mass and dimensions. Equipped with a plasma ignition system, the AL-41F-1C is more economical than the AL-31FP currently installed on the "thirty". With the same amount of fuel, the fighter will be able to stay in the air longer. In addition, the on-board electronics, radar and optical-location station have been improved.

Also, development work is currently underway, which has received the designation "Adaptation-Su". As previously reported by Izvestia» within its framework, the Su-30SM and Su–30SM2 are being refined for the use of new air–to-air and air-to-ground weapons, including hypersonic ones.

"Any modernization of the aircraft first of all allows the pilot to see further with the help of radar equipment," Honored Test Pilot Hero of Russia Igor Malikov told Izvestia. — And the further you see the goal, the faster you can make a decision. The planned modernization is very reasonable. In order to avoid being shot down, you must see far and shoot far. It is ranged combat that is very much in demand right now.
Hit of the season

According to the former commander of the 4th Army of the Air Force and Air Defense, Lieutenant General Valery Gorbenko, each modification or even a new aircraft has more combat capabilities than the previous ones, in this case, before the Su-30.

- The updated propulsion system, firstly, reduces fuel consumption, and secondly, due to this, with the same fuel reserve, the flight range increases. The improved radar enhances the ability to accurately determine and detect the enemy, " he said.

https://iz.ru/1159091/roman-kretcul-anna-cherepanova/tiaga-k-luchshemu-istrebiteli-su-30sm-poluchat-sverkhmoshchnyi-apgreid

So, Irbis in the end, or just upgraded Bars?

Irbis radar and communication gear from Su-57 for better networking.

LMFS wrote:
So, Irbis in the end, or just upgraded Bars?

Here's the graphic for the aircraft. I don't know Cyrillic, but I can make out the N035 part - which is Irbis.

Essentially they will have two seat Su-35s... made out of their Su-30s.

Of course it makes total sense...

The_Observer wrote:

LMFS wrote:
So, Irbis in the end, or just upgraded Bars?

Here's the graphic for the aircraft. I don't know Cyrillic, but I can make out the N035 part - which is Irbis.

Yes its N035 Irbis radar used in this modernisation, as they use also AL41F engines..so as GarryB said it will be 2 siter Su35S after this modernisation...

There has been some mixed reporting about the Irbis, hence my question. I guess soon we will have official info

GarryB wrote:You would have to ask a lot of questions about any simulated combat between F-22s and Su-30s.

First of all which model Su-30... they range in performance from being an Su-27UB two seat Su-27, which is not a bad aircraft of course, right through to the newest Su-30s which are essentially going to be two seat Su-35s.

Also what was the situation... are we talking about 187 F-22s vs the dozen or two Venezuelan Su-30s?

If that is the case then the US is in trouble...

US simulations showed the west would wipe the floor with the Soviet fighters of the 1980s... till the 1990s and got to train and test and found they were in serious trouble and spent a large amount of money on AMRAAM so they didn't have to fly within visual range of Soviet fighters in combat... so they don't get their arses handed to them if they ever come up against a competent enemy.

USA only have 5 operational squadrons of 24 F-22 each in three wings (2 sq. Virginia+2 Alaska+1 Hawai)
Those are 120 F-22 of blocks 30/40/50 (there are reported total of 123 but probably the other 3 are replacements for rotate while one F-22 is in planned maintenance)

Other squadron in Florida is for training with up to 28 airplanes of lower blocks

several more are in reserve since a hurrricane damaged a lot of airplanes in Florida (13 F-22 in storage of block 30/40/50 and other 4 similar to the airplanes for training)

the rest of F-22 are prototypes or airplanes for test that are not full equipped airplanes
USA has lost about one dozen of F-22 in accidents

GarryB wrote:Essentially they will have two seat Su-35s... made out of their Su-30s.

Of course it makes total sense...

yes, that is the point, upgrade the Su-30SM until the Su-35 standrad included unificationn of engines

then is probably the Su-30SM is going to be replaced for Su-35 in he VKS, except for the two seat role in Su-35 regiments
At the end , Syrian war experience said Su-35 can do the same than Su-30SM in attack role , but is better as airplane, because have  better performance as airplane

https://rs.sputniknews.com/rusija/202105021125242379-rusija-modernizuje-zastitnika-neba---su-30sm/
"The main decisions on the modernization of the Su-30SM to the level of SM2 have already been made.
The works are planned to be completed by 2027.
"Not only the fighters of the Air and Space Forces of the Russian Federation, but also the naval aviation will be upgraded," the paper writes.
However, according to the interlocutors of the agencies, the exact number of "thirty" that will be modernized to the level of Su-30SM2 has not been determined yet.

As specified, the modernized aircraft will get a state-of-the-art engine - AL-41F-1S, which is currently installed on serial Su-35 aircraft, more powerful Irbis radar, as well as an expanded arsenal of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. “Including hypersonic..

https://iz.ru/1158724/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/aviapolku-pribylo-iug-rossii-i-kavkaz-ukrepiat-istrebiteliami-su-35?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop
The latest Su-35S will equip the squadron of the 31st Fighter Aviation Regiment in Millerovo, Rostov Region, sources in the defense department told Izvestia. Pilot training for them has already begun. Previously, there were no aircraft of this type in the Southern Military District (YuVO). Now the air regiment is armed with Su-30SM fighters.

This could indicate the replacement of the Su-30SM in the VKS by the Su-35.

In other words, the Southern District would have already received all the necessary Su-30SMs (20 in Millerovo and 12 in Saki)

Now Millerovo would begin to receive the Su-35, while in Su-30SM it would be sent to modernize to the SM2 standard.
Once modernized, 12 would go to Saki to complete the 43rd regiment, while others would remain as doubles for the Su-35 regiment in Millerovo. There is probably more Su-30SM than necesary here, since Belbek should also receive Su-35s in the future with also some Su-30SM2 as doubles.

If you see the west district also received 32 Su-30SM (24 Kursk and 8 Kaliningrad)
then can follow the same way and send some Su-30 to the navy and then, Kursk will receive the Su-35 (one dozen of which are already in 790º regiment)
The east district can transfer the 24 S-30SM of Domna to Pacific Fleet, replacng with Su-34,  and North fleet will receive the new contracted 21 Su-30SM2 , conting with two already in 279º regiment and two remainng from the old contract

then the Su-30SM2 will be mainly in the Navy, and the Air Force will have mainly Su-57 and Su-35

This hypothesis could explain recent announcements about new aircraft deliveries in certain regiments, which otherwise would not be understood.
This would also mean that the final number of Su-57 regiments would be higher than 3, since the 3 Su-30SM regiments would disappear from the VKS.

Would be better to increase the number of regiments in the Air Force.