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    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:56 am

    Helos can help them to survive & enjoy life better;

    Actually the opposite... having to stock a remote location using only helicopters would make it enormously expensive to support them... even a light helicopter will cost a thousand dollars an hour, a big helicopter will cost ten times that... any supplies that come in by helicopter will be emergency only because there wont be many things important enough to justify the cost.

    Monthly or every two to three week deliveries would be done by An-2s for a fraction of the cost of any helo type including tiny robinson types used for training.

    An An-2 could operate on skis during winter and during the summer could land on 200m long flat strips of ground... a 30m long helicopter like a Chinook is going to need a clear area of ground not that much smaller to safely land and take off. The An-2 is faster, longer ranged and much much cheaper to buy and to operate.

    once the economy improves & it becomes feasible, some more roads could be built.

    Using only helos or tilt rotors to support communities in the far east and far north would be counter productive and make it more expensive to support instead of less expensive. They would be better off continuing to use An-2s and An-26s and now the upgraded An-2s and Il-112s and Il-114s.

    There r 28K settlements w/o roads to reach them.

    Many of the settlements have gotten along just fine with only occasional access to the rest of the world and are generally largely self sufficient.

    Most of the time a group like reindeer herders really only need to send off skins or meat a couple of times a season at best and are already supported by existing aircraft.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:25 pm

    Actually the opposite... having to stock a remote location using only helicopters would make it enormously expensive to support them...
    They been doing it since the 1st serialy produced helos appeared in the USSR.
    Abandoning properties in those locations &/ the lives lost would be even more expensive...
    Decades more will pass before more infrastructure is built at a lo$$, or just to break even, much less bring profit:
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2019/03/25/back/

    Monthly or every two to three week deliveries would be done by An-2s for a fraction of the cost of any helo type including tiny robinson types used for training.
    true, but only where airstrips r present & if they can be safely used.

    a 30m long helicopter like a Chinook is going to need a clear area of ground not that much smaller to safely land and take off.
    An-2 Minimum SL Take-Off Run: 560 feet. [170.688 Meters]
    Typical SL Landing distance over 50 foot obstacle: 1400 feet.[426.72 Meters]

    http://www.an2flyers.org/an2specs.html

    No helo needs that much space for VTO& Ls, even a tilt-rotor doing rolling TOs.  

    Using only helos or tilt rotors to support communities in the far east and far north would be counterproductive and make it more expensive to support instead of less expensive.
    I never implied "Using only helos or tilt rotors" where fixed wings could be used for le$$. But even there, with more forest fires & flooding, helos r essential for delivering/extracting firefighters, medics & conduct evacuations from boats, hilltops & rooftops.

    Many of the settlements have gotten along just fine with only occasional access to the rest of the world and are generally largely self sufficient.
    People want to live better in the 21st century.
    Businesses &/ police/FSB/military will want/need to expand there & will pay for 24/7/365 access, & in most weather conditions.

    ..75-80% of all weapons of the Indian army are Soviet or Russian. And the leadership of the country considered that it was short-sighted to depend on a single arms supplier. Therefore, sometimes in tenders for the supply of various types of military equipment, even if Russian offers compare favorably with competitors’ products in terms of cost-effectiveness, the choice is not in our favor. ..
    A fully agreed contract for the supply of 48 Mi-17V-5 helicopters to India is now up in the air.

    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2019-09-13/13_1061_partner.html?print=Y

    So, they may not get as many Mi-17V-5s, if at all! 15 ordered CH-47Fs=~30 Mi-17s, so that leaves 48-30=18 Mi-17V-5s if they absolutely need them.

    Ka-102 [will be]- the fastest helicopter in the world


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:32 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, text, links)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:24 am

    They been doing it since the 1st serialy produced helos appeared in the USSR.
    Abandoning properties in those locations &/ the lives lost would be even more expensive...

    To put it in context a helicopter is a useful transport item for medical and emergency services. They are enormously expensive to buy and to operate, but then the average fully equipped ambulance is not cheaper and is very much disadvantaged in many big cities because of issues with traffic and accessing where the patient happens to be.

    Even with modern road and rail infrastructure a helicopter makes sense.

    If however you are talking about the far north of Russia it would take longer but you could make long trips via ground vehicles... they have a very wide range of types including wheeled and tracked vehicles. No roads, but no need for roads because these are rugged cross country vehicles designed for arctic conditions. They can travel thousands of kms in relative safety with little chance of a crash... though they might get stuck they generally operate in groups that can help each other out of problem situations. But why do they bother if helicopters are so perfect and other aircraft impossible?

    true, but only where airstrips r present & if they can be safely used.

    An-2s are designed to operate from rough air strips... which means unprepared flat areas of ground... if fitted with skis that includes frozen rivers and lakes or areas of packed down snow.

    An-2 Minimum SL Take-Off Run: 560 feet. [170.688 Meters]
    Typical SL Landing distance over 50 foot obstacle: 1400 feet.[426.72 Meters]
    http://www.an2flyers.org/an2specs.html

    No helo needs that much space for VTO& Ls, even a tilt-rotor doing rolling TOs.

    The stall speed of the new An-2 means that if there is a strong head wind they can actually fly backwards. In a place the size of Siberia finding 250m of flat snow to land on is not a huge problem... a small HE charge will drop a 50 foot obstacle easily enough.

    I never implied "Using only helos or tilt rotors" where fixed wings could be used for le$$. But even there, with more forest fires & flooding, helos r essential for delivering/extracting firefighters, medics & conduct evacuations from boats, hilltops & rooftops.

    They don't have a shortage of helos for that, what they need more of are fire fighting aircraft like Be-200 and A-42s.

    And the leadership of the country considered that it was short-sighted to depend on a single arms supplier. Therefore, sometimes in tenders for the supply of various types of military equipment, even if Russian offers compare favorably with competitors’ products in terms of cost-effectiveness, the choice is not in our favor. ..

    Which is fucking stupid. Such a policy is ridiculous. You should buy the best for the job at hand... except when the provider has a history of unreliability... that would be France and Britain and the US, but not Russia ironically.

    Such a policy led to years using INSAS rifles...

    So, they may not get as many Mi-17V-5s, if at all! 15 ordered CH-47Fs=~30 Mi-17s, so that leaves 48-30=18 Mi-17V-5s if they absolutely need them.

    Based on their retarded logic they should not buy any... Russia can find some other customer who is not deranged.



    Thus, its take-off weight will be close to 30 tons. It will replace the Soviet "Mi-6", as derived from service in 2004. The crew of the aircraft will consist of two people. "Ka-102" will be able to fly at a speed of 500 km/h at distances up to 1100 km; flight altitude may exceed 4 kilometers.

    Replacing the Mi-6 is more likely the new Chinese and Russian joint venture helo in the 10-15 ton payload range... Kamov have already said they have designs able to fly faster than 500km/h using turbofans and wings, so even if it gets the title fastest helo, it wont hold it long.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:06 am

    To put it in context a helicopter is a useful transport item for medical and emergency services. They are enormously expensive to buy and to operate, ..
    Passanger Mi-4/6/8/17s been used on regularly scheduled flights in Siberia/FN/FE, despite the cost-as there r often no other way to get from point A to point B there.
    If however you are talking about the far north of Russia it would take longer but you could make long trips via ground vehicles...No roads, but no need for roads because these are rugged cross country vehicles designed for arctic conditions.
    but they r not tanks to go through the thick taiga; helos can fly at treetop level & over marshes/rivers/lakes/mountains & find a clearing to land in an emergency.
    An-2s are designed to operate from rough air strips... which means unprepared flat areas of ground... if fitted with skis that includes frozen rivers and lakes or areas of packed down snow.
    not all locations have them nearby.
    The stall speed of the new An-2 means that if there is a strong head wind they can actually fly backwards.
    in most landings, the wind may not be there &/ in the right direction for that.
    They don't have a shortage of helos for that, what they need more of are fire fighting aircraft like Be-200 and A-42s.
    having more helos would still be better.
    Aircraft Carrier Island: Baltic Fleet tested mobile airfields The Navy now can quickly arrange a military aircraft landing on any unequipped site

    As I been saying, they can set up smaller airfields in Siberia/FN/FE for tandem/tilt-rotors & for a lot le$$ & quicker than building regular airstrips for fixed wings.
    You should buy the best for the job at hand... except when the provider has a history of unreliability... that would be France and Britain and the US, but not Russia ironically.
    the Indians r not as stupid as u imagine: they know that they r indispensable to the US due to China & Russia factors, so there's no risk of losing any support for imported aircraft.
    Based on their retarded logic they should not buy any...
    they certainly won't buy more Mi-26s; but to cultivate relations with Russia, imports of other helos, etc. will continue, even if in smaller #s. ..the Indian prime minister declined to sign the long-negotiated deal on purchasing 200 Russian Ka-226T air force utility helicopters (RIA Novosti, September 4). Russia’s offer to build India six diesel-electric submarines on the basis of an inter-governmental agreement instead of partaking in the already-announced Indian tender was also left unanswered (Nezavisimaya Gazeta, September 5). Multiple assurances of the traditional bilateral friendship can barely hide concerns in Moscow about Indian preferences for cultivating military-technological ties with the United States (Russiancouncil.ru, August 20).
    https://jamestown.org/program/putin-tries-to-find-asia-beyond-china/
    In the transfer of troops to the border with the PRC, the main military transport aircraft of the Indian Air Force are involved. For the transfer of artillery, India is also expected to use the Chinook transport helicopters recently received from the United States.: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2719077.html
    Replacing the Mi-6 is more likely the new Chinese and Russian joint venture helo in the 10-15 ton payload range...
    Pl. read my prev. post: don't count on Russia importing it in large #s, if at all- it's mostly for the Chinese & their friends in the developing nations. The Mi-6 is too good of helo to be replaced by anything other than a Russian made 1, for work in harsh Russian conditions.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:36 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, text, links)

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