"Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

GunshipDemocracy wrote:...........
They say it flies on 25-30km and has CEP - 1m . But I dont expect everything is exact not to give any real hints to US intel.

Aircraft carriers (and pretty much most other ships) are lot wider than 1m so even if CEP is 10 times worse it's still slam dunk, just aim for the middle

Hole wrote:The animated Tu-22M3 looked great with 4 Kinzhals.

I wonder tho how many Kinzhals one needs to sink whole CSG...

PapaDragon wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:...........
They say it flies on 25-30km and has CEP - 1m . But I dont expect everything is exact not to give any real hints to US intel.

Aircraft carriers (and pretty much most other ships) are lot wider than 1m so even if CEP is 10 times worse it's still slam dunk, just aim for the middle  

slam dunk - that reflects nicely this situation

short cheat sheet from different sources (including this ig)
............................................Kinzhal...................Iskander-M
Max overload is up to..............25g........................20-30g)
CEP.......................................1m.........................507m
warhead weight......................500kg.....................480km
max height of trajectory..........25-30km..................59-100km


Andyr - Anchorage..............................1,674.05 km so
Fort Greely to Anadyr..........................1,754 km -> so they need extend Kinzhal range not to enter US AAD

Interesting comparison, but the CEP for Iskander is 20m with inertial guidance, and less than 4m with optical terminal guidance.... perhaps you were trying to put 5 to 7 metres?

The range of combat use "Dagger"
To extend their range, more Tu-22Ms could be used armed with just 1 Kinzhal.
They r mulling & may develop an AShBM like the Chinese DF-26.
They could also modify a few older Il-76/96s to carry AshCMs &/ Zircons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-96#Specifications
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/alternateweapons/72-krylatye-rakety-v-grajdanskii-boing-samolet-porohovaia-bochka-5c4745ba7b9a3700abe41ae8

Tsavo Lion wrote:The range of combat use "Dagger"
To extend their range, more Tu-22Ms could be used armed with just 1 Kinzhal.

IMHO unlikely for CSGs' killer version. You dont need to fly fr form Russians maritime borders.  2,000km is  find to keep outside US missiles range. 2 pairs could ctty 16 Kinzahls .  I dotn think any US admiral is so stupid to work in kamikaze mode.

TsavoL wrote:They r mulling & may develop an AShBM like the Chinese DF-26.

You mean adapting already existing and tested RS-26 Rubezh + Avangrd?  Rubezh was already tested on 2,000km too... perhaps some lightweight version of Avangard can be developed

GarryB wrote:Interesting comparison, but the CEP for Iskander is 20m with inertial guidance, and less than 4m with optical terminal guidance.... perhaps you were trying to put 5 to 7 metres?

5-7m is for Iskander-M not Iskander.  In all sources I could find ws 5-7m.

IMHO unlikely for CSGs' killer version. You dont need to fly fr form Russians maritime borders. 2,000km is find to keep outside US missiles range. 2 pairs could ctty 16 Kinzahls.

With less weight, TU-22Ms have more range at a given speed- critical in Russia with few good airfields to fly from. That's also why he proposes using Tu-160s with intercontinental range- Russia spans 2 continents 11 time zones: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/russia

You mean adapting already existing and tested RS-26 Rubezh + Avangrd?

Possibly, or Iskanders. They could also use Topol ICBMs with 1 less stage as a stop gap.

With a load of four Kinzhal missiles the internal weapon bay would be empty... putting a large fuel tank to fill that area should help extend range quite a bit... in addition to inflight refuelling capability too of course... and the upgraded Tu-22M3Ms have the newer engines that improve performance too...

Of course the Kinzhal was based on the Iskander with a flight range of 500km in the ground launched version... with the INF treaty gone then a new ground launched missile with a range of 3,000km plus should be able to reach 6,000km plus from an air launch... plus they are only just starting with scramjet powered cruise missiles too... no matter how big they get the Backfire should be able to carry at the very least two or three...

@TsvoL and @GB

Im not sure if we talk bout the same : Tu-22m3m main mission is to keep CSG  at bay or sink. (us admiral chooses which one ) .


Distance from Murmansk to .
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=167

Reykivik.......................2,400km
Edinburgh....................2,300km
Spitsbergen..................1,100km

Kinzhal range (missile only) : 1,300km


You dont need any long range here. FLying over Russian waters you stop CSG come even close after Island-Scotland-Norway line.

Hole wrote:Never heard of a country named Kremlin.

It's called brainwashing. Americans have been weened from birth for generations on the terms "Kremlin's ambitions", "Kremlin controlled",
"Kremlin ...". These are pure Pavolovian trigger phrases which induces the analog of drooling in the US and NATO mass media consumer.
Their brain turns off and a pre-installed stereotype clicks on.

I always found it silly how the book "1984" by Eric Blair was supposedly about Russia under communism (or whenever). Winston Smith was
the stereotypical Brit and the sort of cheesy thought control simply did not happen in the USSR and Russia even during the worst periods.
Russians do not give their media and government the benefit of the doubt. As far as Americans are concerned, they may as well be
trained poodles. That is why patent BS like "Russiagate" is still ongoing.

http://www.pravda-tv.ru/2019/03/22/412050/ispytaniya-rossijskih-raket-kinzhal-vstrevozhili-razvedku-ssha

In February of this year, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reported that the MiG-31, equipped with Dagger missiles, carried out 380 flights over the waters of the Black and Caspian Seas. Including hypersonic rockets passed tests in adverse weather conditions, hitting a training target the size of a passenger car at a distance of 1000 kilometers.

well I believe more Shoigu then "source very likely on condition of anonymity"

dino00 wrote:
one person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity, said.

better call thins with their names:  just some moron from Us propaganda dept

Hole wrote:Never heard of a country named Kremlin.

There is Vatican can be Kremlin or what?

As I said multiple of times - Kinzhal will be Russia's main arm in Hypersonic for general (non strategic) use until Zircon comes into force. Hopefully they can increase range even more.

miketheterrible wrote:As I said multiple of times - Kinzhal will be Russia's main arm in Hypersonic for general (non strategic) use until Zircon comes into force.  Hopefully they can increase range even more.

I am quite sure that the Zircon range is some minimal figure. The range is determined by the hypersonic speed. Adding more fuel would easily propel the Zircon to
2000 km. I think the clowns in the Pentagon realize these details. Expect all sorts of squirming and shrieking from the NATO ubermenschen in the near future.
They are exposed and they don't like it.

Well, test was at 1k km. But it's range is apparently 3k km

kvs wrote:I am quite sure that the Zircon range is some minimal figure.   The range is determined by the hypersonic speed.   Adding more fuel would easily propel the Zircon to
2000 km.   I think the clowns in the Pentagon realize these details.    Expect all sorts of squirming and shrieking from the NATO ubermenschen in the near future.
They are exposed and they don't like it.

Hysteria from the Pentagram is only to be expected. Its a form of insanity brought on by the sudden realisation that their $14B God Chariots aka carriers have been magically transformed from assets into liabilities.

kvs wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:As I said multiple of times - Kinzhal will be Russia's main arm in Hypersonic for general (non strategic) use until Zircon comes into force.  Hopefully they can increase range even more.

I am quite sure that the Zircon range is some minimal figure.   The range is determined by the hypersonic speed.   Adding more fuel would easily propel the Zircon to
2000 km.   I think the clowns in the Pentagon realize these details.    Expect all sorts of squirming and shrieking from the NATO ubermenschen in the near future.
They are exposed and they don't like it.

2000 km range is already attainable with a high-altitude (40km, 20km attained by aircraft) air-launched approach. Take for example Kalibr-M and Kh-101, it's widely believed that the deep modernization of Kalibr to Kalibr-M was driven by the finalized development of Kh-101, which has a range of 5500km....however because it (Kalibr-M) is surface launched, it loses 1000km in range, so instead of 5500km range it has 4500km range. Zircon with a air-launched, high altitude pattern could easily gain 1000km in range to get the 2000km mark. We should also consider the potential max increase in speed. The difference between supersonic speeds is very relevant to altitude, so at low altitude 10,734.12 km/h translates to Mach 9 speed (surfaced launched Zircon), but at high altitude (40km) 10,734.12 km/h translates to Mach 10 speed.

Big_Gazza wrote:

kvs wrote:I am quite sure that the Zircon range is some minimal figure.   The range is determined by the hypersonic speed.   Adding more fuel would easily propel the Zircon to
2000 km.   I think the clowns in the Pentagon realize these details.    Expect all sorts of squirming and shrieking from the NATO ubermenschen in the near future.
They are exposed and they don't like it.

Hysteria from the Pentagram is only to be expected.  Its a form of insanity brought on by the sudden realisation that their $14B God Chariots aka  carriers have been magically transformed from assets into liabilities.  

What's even more interesting is the DEEPLY flawed design of the Ford class carriers...take a look at the cutaway for example, see anything wrong? Hint: the proximity of the arming/disarming platform in relation to the main engine room:

dino00 wrote:
An air launched Zirkon (GZUR) will be smaller(less fuel) but maybe it could still achive 2000km range, Zirkon has a 1000km range plus, depends on what the plus is.

because aircraft adds both height + speed so you dont need first stage booster to do that.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

2000 km range is already attainable with a high-altitude (40km, 20km attained by aircraft) air-launched approach. Take for example Kalibr-M and Kh-101, it's widely believed that the deep modernization of Kalibr to Kalibr-M was driven by the finalized development of Kh-101, which has a range of 5500km....however because it (Kalibr-M) is surface launched, it loses 1000km in range, so instead of 5500km range it has 4500km range. Zircon with a air-launched, high altitude pattern could easily gain 1000km in range to get the 2000km mark. We should also consider the potential max increase in speed. The difference between supersonic speeds is very relevant to altitude, so at low altitude 10,734.12 km/h translates to Mach 9 speed (surfaced launched Zircon), but at high altitude (40km) 10,734.12 km/h translates to Mach 10 speed.

not sure if Russian MoD works on that, they seem to work on GZUR (and later as Jane's say GZUR II) . Both have air breathing engines, so save wright since you dont need oxidant . So called GZUR II should fly 12-14Ma...

miketheterrible wrote:Well, test was at 1k km. But it's range is apparently 3k km

Kh-47M2 Kinzhal is actually system consisting of missile and carrier (Tu-22M3M or MiG-31K). Range 2000km (MiG-31k) or 3000km (Tu-22M3M) includes range of carrier).
if you look at MiG-31 (wiki)

combat radius: 720 km (450 mi; 390 nmi) at Mach 2.35 and at an altitude of 18,000 m
when we add ~1,500km you have 2,100-2,200km range et voila





"
The reports on the characteristics of the Dagger aircraft aeroballistic missile do not cause much surprise and confirm the available guesses that the range of the 2,000 km complex indicated during the President’s Address to the Federal Assembly also includes the combat radius of the carrier — the supersonic MiG-31K interceptor .

It must be said that the missile’s flight range itself, equal to 1.5 thousand km, is quite an impressive indicator and is achieved due to the fact that the launch is carried out at high altitude and supersonic speed. Accordingly, the rocket, which is actually a modification of that of the ground operational tactical complex (OTRK) "Iskander-M", spends much less fuel and is able to fly three times farther.

The use of a missile from a Tu-22M3 carrier may still reduce the range somewhat, since this bomber, although gaining supersonic speed, will be lower (as well as the altitude). However, the range of the “Dagger” in this case is unlikely to be lower than 1–1.2 thousand km.
"


Подробности: https://regnum.ru/news/2450236.html
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Vesti Kinzhal shot.

This is a solid fuel missile and it shows the stupendous advance in Russian solid fuel technology since the 1980s. I get the impression
that not too many people are clued in to this. I have seen no evidence of similar advances in NATO.

Interesting fair report about Hypersonic missiles.

How to defeat Hypersonic-Missile?




One thing the report don't mention is that

Hypersonic speed is from Mach 5-10 ----------------------- (kinzhal mach 10.0 and zircon mach 8,0 missile)   The Russian mig-41 supposedly will fly at near hypersonic mach 4.2.

High-Hypersonic is from MACh 10+ to mach 25  

Re-entry speed is from Mach 25+ to up.. ----(Avangard Missile Mach 27)



So the avangard missile technically speaking is not hypersonic missile
but a Re-entry speed missile.. Much much faster up to a bit more faster
than 5x times hypersonic mach 5.0 missile. 5x5 =25 < 27


you can see the mach speed differences here..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_number

and Avangard claimed to fly up to mach 27 speeds in test.. by Russia military.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avangard_(hypersonic_glide_vehicle)

Russia needs to mass produce in the thousands Kinzhal missiles , and configure every
every warship ,mig-31 or bigger combat plane and missile in Russia military to carry one.

Also design a shorter range version for pak-fa and all Russian sukhois planes..