IRAQ - Fight on Islamic State: News #1

Militarov wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Wouldnt friction upon hitting engine and other solid metal parts of the car (that are not just metal sheets) cause huge temperature, melting, liquid metal spraying, even plasma? Sabots are truly useless aganist most of the targets that are not tanks but in this case i suppose they could have worked i mean pure kinetic energy is immense people inside even it went right though front and back wind shield would probably have severe bleedings due to pressure.

But it is true that US likes throwing money though window, they always did that, and they will keep doing so.

Most of the car what you see is just very thin sheets of metal which will do nothing but be like paper, no heat, no fragmentation just a very soft material that will be pierced without anything. The only thing that would face any sort of fragmentation or higher friction to sparks would be the structural and engine block, only engine block would achieve a "kill" to actually stop the sucicide truck.  You can see sparks from APFSDS/APDS and smiliar rounds on armor, but cars are not made of armor. There is a reason why specific weapons were designed to do specific jobs and other weapons are just underwhelming or plain out useless for a job like APFSDS for soft targets. RPG warheads even as a dud have more devestating effect on cars than APFSDS rounds. Bigger diameter and more spread of the Kinetic energy they have will not just punch a nice hole in it but also deform structure of vehicles if it is placed at such an area and on top of that it is still an explosive which can explode any second even if the contact fuze has failed to intiate on impact.

Well as i said engine and few other solid metal parts, but still i am quite convinced pure kinetic energy surrounding sabot traveling huge speed would do alot of damage to nearby tissue. I mean there is reason why infantry does not go infront of tank while its firing, i am quite sure overpressure is significant. I was present only few times during exercises that included tanks (M84As and T72M) but my kidneys were moving even tho i was 20m away behind it. I imagine Sabot traveling 30-50cm from my head would probably chop it away.

"The overpressure from the 120mm cannon can kill a dismounted infantryman within a 90° arc extending from the muzzle of the gun tube out to 200 meters. The overpressure can also cause glass in surrounding buildings to shatter. Sabot petals, including those on APFSDS, MPAT, and MPAT-OR rounds, endanger accompanying infantry elements. From 200 to 1,000 meters along the line of fire, on a frontage of about 400 meters, dismounted infantry must be aware of the danger from discarding sabot petals, which can kill or seriously injure personnel. " - even tho i belive this 200m is abit overestimated

Zivo wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Wouldnt friction upon hitting engine and other solid metal parts of the car (that are not just metal sheets) cause huge temperature, melting, liquid metal spraying, even plasma? Sabots are truly useless aganist most of the targets that are not tanks but in this case i suppose they could have worked i mean pure kinetic energy is immense people inside even it went right though front and back wind shield would probably have severe bleedings due to pressure.

But it is true that US likes throwing money though window, they always did that, and they will keep doing so.

Most of the car what you see is just very thin sheets of metal which will do nothing but be like paper, no heat, no fragmentation just a very soft material that will be pierced without anything. The only thing that would face any sort of fragmentation or higher friction to sparks would be the structural and engine block, only engine block would achieve a "kill" to actually stop the sucicide truck.  You can see sparks from APFSDS/APDS and smiliar rounds on armor, but cars are not made of armor. There is a reason why specific weapons were designed to do specific jobs and other weapons are just underwhelming or plain out useless for a job like APFSDS for soft targets. RPG warheads even as a dud have more devestating effect on cars than APFSDS rounds. Bigger diameter and more spread of the Kinetic energy they have will not just punch a nice hole in it but also deform structure of vehicles if it is placed at such an area and on top of that it is still an explosive which can explode any second even if the contact fuze has failed to intiate on impact.

Well as i said engine and few other solid metal parts, but still i am quite convinced pure kinetic energy surrounding sabot traveling huge speed would do alot of damage to nearby tissue. I mean there is reason why infantry does not go infront of tank while its firing, i am quite sure overpressure is significant. I was present only few times during exercises that included tanks (M84As and T72M) but my kidneys were moving even tho i was 20m away behind it. I imagine Sabot traveling 30-50cm from my head would probably chop it away.

"The overpressure from the 120mm cannon can kill a dismounted infantryman within a 90° arc extending from the muzzle of the gun tube out to 200 meters. The overpressure can also cause glass in surrounding buildings to shatter. Sabot petals, including those on APFSDS, MPAT, and MPAT-OR rounds, endanger accompanying infantry elements. From 200 to 1,000 meters along the line of fire, on a frontage of about 400 meters, dismounted infantry must be aware of the danger from discarding sabot petals, which can kill or seriously injure personnel. " - even tho i belive this 200m is abit overestimated

It's just a big bullet. I would be willing to bet that if you were in the driver seat, and a APFSDS flew through the front window, PAX seat and out the back, you would still be alive, but your ear drums would be ringing.

Militarov wrote:

Zivo wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:
Wouldnt friction upon hitting engine and other solid metal parts of the car (that are not just metal sheets) cause huge temperature, melting, liquid metal spraying, even plasma? Sabots are truly useless aganist most of the targets that are not tanks but in this case i suppose they could have worked i mean pure kinetic energy is immense people inside even it went right though front and back wind shield would probably have severe bleedings due to pressure.

But it is true that US likes throwing money though window, they always did that, and they will keep doing so.

Most of the car what you see is just very thin sheets of metal which will do nothing but be like paper, no heat, no fragmentation just a very soft material that will be pierced without anything. The only thing that would face any sort of fragmentation or higher friction to sparks would be the structural and engine block, only engine block would achieve a "kill" to actually stop the sucicide truck.  You can see sparks from APFSDS/APDS and smiliar rounds on armor, but cars are not made of armor. There is a reason why specific weapons were designed to do specific jobs and other weapons are just underwhelming or plain out useless for a job like APFSDS for soft targets. RPG warheads even as a dud have more devestating effect on cars than APFSDS rounds. Bigger diameter and more spread of the Kinetic energy they have will not just punch a nice hole in it but also deform structure of vehicles if it is placed at such an area and on top of that it is still an explosive which can explode any second even if the contact fuze has failed to intiate on impact.

Well as i said engine and few other solid metal parts, but still i am quite convinced pure kinetic energy surrounding sabot traveling huge speed would do alot of damage to nearby tissue. I mean there is reason why infantry does not go infront of tank while its firing, i am quite sure overpressure is significant. I was present only few times during exercises that included tanks (M84As and T72M) but my kidneys were moving even tho i was 20m away behind it. I imagine Sabot traveling 30-50cm from my head would probably chop it away.

"The overpressure from the 120mm cannon can kill a dismounted infantryman within a 90° arc extending from the muzzle of the gun tube out to 200 meters. The overpressure can also cause glass in surrounding buildings to shatter. Sabot petals, including those on APFSDS, MPAT, and MPAT-OR rounds, endanger accompanying infantry elements. From 200 to 1,000 meters along the line of fire, on a frontage of about 400 meters, dismounted infantry must be aware of the danger from discarding sabot petals, which can kill or seriously injure personnel. " - even tho i belive this 200m is abit overestimated

It's just a big bullet. I would be willing to bet that if you were in the driver seat, and a APFSDS flew through the front window, PAX seat and out the back, you would still be alive, but your ear drums would be ringing.

Yeah 9-10kg bullet traveling 1600m/s

If there was a glass of champagne on that end table,  the guy sitting on the chair could reach across the APFSDS hole and take a sip.

Militarov wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Zivo wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Dunno if it has been posted

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2015/10/15/iraq-russian-gun-iranian-ammo-found-us-origin-tank/73999398/

Iraqi Forces Add Russian Guns to US Tanks for ISIL Fight

The presence of hybrid M1 Abrams tanks was confirmed to Defense News by Dr. Wathaq al-Hashimi, director of the Iraqi Group for Strategic Studies. "Iraq has been dependent on a number of different weapons suppliers, therefore they have integrated these weapons onto different platforms to achieve effectiveness."

Al-Hashimi said this isn’t the first time Iraqi forces — looking for more firepower to battle ISIL — have integrated Russian weapons systems onto American platforms.

"Russian systems were placed on American M1 Abrams tanks specially with armor-piercing rocket systems to be used against ISIL explosive cars used in their attacks," he said. "In Beiji [in Northern Iraq], there were 28 explosive cars used in one day and in Ramadi 15 cars were blown on another day."

Iraqi forces need to integrate different systems as they receive weapons from American, Russian, Iranian and European sources, al-Hashimi said.

"This integration may very well lead to a problem between the US and Iraq due to the purchase agreements,” he said. “However, there was a real problem and threat from the ISIS-armored explosive cars which led the prime minister to travel to Moscow with the minister of defense to acquire these rocket systems which were placed on the tanks.”

Iraq has a long history and experience in weapons and hybridization, al-Hashimi said, noting that Iraqi military experts may have acquired assistance from some of the estimated 5,000 to 6,000 international consultants present in the country from many countries including Russia, the US, Iran and France.

With Thursday being a national holiday, Iraq's Ministry of Defense could not be reached for comment.

I heard about the M1's modified to use Kord HMG's,  but it sounds like they're talking about Kornets or something? Absolutely bizarre, obviously the M1 has a less than desirable selection of ammo, but you would think HEAT rounds would be adequate against the kamikaze attacks. Maybe they have trouble targeting fast moving cars.

They just replaced M2 Brow with NSV (apparently NSV) in field when it had serious malfunction, and noone after bothered to put another M2 instead, and when it went back to repairs Muricans freaked out when they saw it, even worse they found IRANIAN ammunition for that same NSV on tank. I dont see the issue there, nor do American high ranked commanders, however i saw that some lowlife imbeciles in US army did, they even say how its aganist contract US and Iraq signed regarding those tanks where it says how Iraq is not allowed to make any modifications to the tank, right, so they were supposed to wait for US ammunition and replacement gun to come? What kind of drugs are they using exacly? Also i am more than sure that "modifications" to the tank do not really cover external HMG whatsoever but its electronics and optoelectronical equipment, engine etc.

When its about those cars with explosive attacks and similar they mentioned there and some mysterious "missile system" i am not sure whatsoever what did they mean by that. We discussed it already few days ago when i posted similar article but we got no solid conclusion. Maybe they decided to apply Metis/Kornet instead of HMG to counter those cars, but i dont see the reason why Sabot wouldnt be effective now aganist such targets coz it was more than effective when US invaded Iraq when Iraqis tried to fight tanks that way.

What a load of History Channel Bullshit. SABOTs are useless against everything that is not a tank. If he does not hit the driver it will do most probably nothing. Even if the tanker would hit the explosives with a SABOT it would most probably do nothing but penetrate the shell like they often used unexploded artillery rounds for bombing trucks and thats it. They use SABOTS because US is a corrupt country the most corrupt in the world. Sabots like the US uses costs much more than any other tank round, someone mentioned it costs over 12.000 USD or more. HE-F/HEAT rounds cost far less and are specifically designed for that kind of job. The same thing is the case for americans that they do not use HE-I M799 round in their Apaches which is HEAT round with incendiary capability that is more than double lethal than M789 HEDP that contains more explosive. The HEDP round is nothing else but a very small HEAT round that does not create any fragmentation except the uneven large and small fragments from the shell. The issue with that design for "Fragmentation" effect on soft-skin targets is that it does not create many fragments but some larger parts some smaller parts and they are very unevenly spread. That means that you can stand half a meter next to it and be "unharmed" like often enough you can see on Apache gun engagement videos how many rounds land close to people while they still can run. Militarly speaking that is highly ineffective especially since one M789 round costs a lot. The M799 HE-I round 30x113mm round costs 24.75 USD (2011) while the HEDP M789 costs 74 USD (2011). Less effective but 3 times the cost. It is really no wonder that Apaches need for engagements between 20-130 rounds for a 1-3 people, roughly the average for trigger happy pilots.

Even tho many have told me that they do not believe that HEDP's are used in afghanistan when i told them that HEDP is standard round, the produce ATK itself is saying that on their page.

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/04/atk-awarded-49-9-million-contract-to-produce-30mm-m789-high-explosive-dual-purpose-ammunition/

“The dual-purpose M789 round provides the firepower necessary to penetrate armor while maintaining its high-explosive capability for use against soft targets,” said Dan Olson, Vice President and General Manager, ATK Integrated Weapon Systems. “This versatility has made it a highly-effective combat round, and it is currently supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

Wouldnt friction upon hitting engine and other solid metal parts of the car (that are not just metal sheets) cause huge temperature, melting, liquid metal spraying, even plasma? Sabots are truly useless aganist most of the targets that are not tanks but in this case i suppose they could have worked i mean pure kinetic energy is immense people inside even it went right though front and back wind shield would probably have severe bleedings due to pressure.

But it is true that US likes throwing money though window, they always did that, and they will keep doing so.

Militarov wrote:

If there was a glass of champagne on that end table,  the guy sitting on the chair could reach across the APFSDS hole and take a sip.

It previously penetrated at least one concrete obstacle And couch does not really simulate human tissue...

TheArmenian wrote:Mi-28NE

NationalRus wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Mi-28NE

the bullets needed over 3 sec to travel till target, that's impressive accuracy for the part that they are basically out of effective range for the gun, by the other videos i saw the gunner needs also better trigger discipline

NationalRus wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Mi-28NE

the bullets needed over 3 sec to travel till target, that's impressive accuracy for the part that they are basically out of effective range for the gun, by the other videos i saw the gunner needs also better trigger discipline

So there you are! Came back out of the blue but sorry dude, you're in the wrong thread. So get back real fast.

Werewolf wrote:

NationalRus wrote:

TheArmenian wrote:Mi-28NE

the bullets needed over 3 sec to travel till target, that's impressive accuracy for the part that they are basically out of effective range for the gun, by the other videos i saw the gunner needs also better trigger discipline

That is what most lack especially since Mi-28 has very limited ammunition for now.

NationalRus wrote:

So there you are! Came back out of the blue but sorry dude, you're in the wrong thread. So get back real fast.

are you a new groupie of mine? i got by now quite a few in the last 5 years here.

Kyo wrote:

NationalRus wrote:

So there you are! Came back out of the blue but sorry dude, you're in the wrong thread. So get back real fast.

are you a new groupie of mine? i got by now quite a few in the last 5 years here.

Yeah. Lots! Especially when you try to fool everybody on this Forum.

NationalRus wrote:

Kyo wrote:

NationalRus wrote:

So there you are! Came back out of the blue but sorry dude, you're in the wrong thread. So get back real fast.

are you a new groupie of mine? i got by now quite a few in the last 5 years here.

Yeah. Lots! Especially when you try to fool everybody on this Forum.

iraqidabab wrote:Apache aim is just as bad from lang range, only thing is they can afford it with 1000+ bullets. MI-28 would be a lot better if they'd manage to increase it to 500 bullets, 250 is very little.

iraqidabab wrote:Apache aim is just as bad from lang range, only thing is they can afford it with 1000+ bullets. MI-28 would be a lot better if they'd manage to increase it to 500 bullets, 250 is very little.

higurashihougi wrote:So why Russia still choose the 30mm cannon for Mi-28 and Ka-52 ? These ones deal with something tougher ?

The effect of the muzzle blast from the two 2A42 cannon on the BMPT would be negligible as the gas lacks real weight and rapidly reduces velocity as it leaves the muzzle.