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    The rise of Chinese Navy and the threat it poses to the Russian Navy

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:30 am

    But the USSR had.

    The USSR was a bigger country with a bigger population and an entire western world to confront and it largely collapsed because it was spending too much money and effort on ultimately useless technology... they made 40,000 odd tanks... most of which ended up being scrapped and were to a total waste of money and effort.

    He built large destroyers and even aircraft carriers at the end of its existence.

    It was laying down larger and larger ships, but was never the global naval power that even France used to be or Britain... let alone the US.

    If you could magically make appear a US level of naval force and gave it to Russia right now the Russian economy would be seriously damaged just trying to keep it in service and operating at maybe a 20% readiness level... which would make it effectively useless, and also a serious financial burden on the Russian society... much like it is today for the US who probably couldn't mobilise more than 3 or four of its 10 carrier groups right now even if WWIII was kicking off because despite spending an eye watering amount of money building the forces, they have not kept up with maintaining and supporting those forces... look at their problems with their newest carrier that is not really a carrier because it can't operate fixed wing aircraft from its decks... its newest destroyers are a joke... a very expensive joke by the way, and their new LCA ships or whatever they are called are a total disaster too... the US Navy is in a terrible state and it only seems to be getting worse as F-35s get introduced and are being found out as the serious mistakes they are...

    Russia has destroyers and cruisers and a carrier, but they are old and in need of upgrades... their new corvettes and Frigates are state of the art and superior to their cold war destroyers, and when they are ready to start producing replacements for their destroyers and cruisers they are going to be formidable vessels.

    Their budget is a fraction of teh budget of the US, so they can't just whack them out by the dozen over the next few years, but that is OK... taking the better part of the next two decades to build them gives them time to expand their shore infrastructure to support these new vessels that are on their way.

    There is no rush.

    [quote[The USSR's fleet was incomparably larger than that of Russia. [/quote]

    It was, because it needed to confront both NATO and the US Navy in a global game of chess. Russia needs no such capacity.... and to attempt to create such a force would be self defeating... exactly what the Americans and the British want them to do... fool them in to an arms race that wastes money and resources and leads to neglect of the real needs of the Russian people... just like the western countries have funded their military at the expense of the infrastructure and well being of their citizens too.

    The same shipbuilding industry.

    No it isn't. The Soviet ship building industry included the Ukrainian and Crimean and Baltic shipyards, which are no longer connected, though the Crimean shipyards were returned in 2014 they are getting up to speed, the others are lost along with the demands of a super power to match the western navies around the world.

    Anyway, looking at your english lvl shows that you are probably from China and you are here only to troll.

    He is probably a bit giddy because China never had much of a naval tradition and their current changes probably make him think China will be ruling the worlds seas by 2030, but he clearly does not understand how such things work.

    Having lots of ships means nothing if you are not sophisticated and clever in the use of such assets.

    Look at all those shiny powerful air defence systems the Saudis had and how easily their defences were penetrated by subsonic cruise missiles and simple drones...
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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Expensive or not, all this will take time...a long time.

    You are clearly a fan of Chinese stuff and China... surely you of all people would realise there is no rush.... it is more important to get it right than to get it right now... because getting it right now means debt and debt means foreign powers have influence where they did not previously and their influence will generally shift your policy towards things of their interest rather than Russias interests... so it is bad for Russia.

    Right now Russia is secure... shore based power and air power and sub and coastal ship based power and power projection makes Russian territory as safe as any territory on the planet... more safe than most actually, so there is no rush to spend trillions right now.... billions over the next 2-3 decades should develop a powerful modern mobile fleet that serves Russia well.

    I doubt "getting it right" has much to do with Russias speed of shipbuilding. I shouldnt even mention the Ivan Gren class.....or the Admiral Gorshkov for that matter.

    Russia always seem to run in to delayes becouse of some reason. Whatever it be finansial troubles, technology problems, foreign relations issues ecs.


    Last edited by walle83 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  walle83 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:08 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Anyway, looking at your english lvl shows that you are probably from China and you are here only to troll.

    He is probably a bit giddy because China never had much of a naval tradition and their current changes probably make him think China will be ruling the worlds seas by 2030, but he clearly does not understand how such things work.

    Having lots of ships means nothing if you are not sophisticated and clever in the use of such assets.

    Look at all those shiny powerful air defence systems the Saudis had and how easily their defences were penetrated by subsonic cruise missiles and simple drones...

    Well they will rule the seas a hell alot more then Russia will by 2030 thats for sure.

    And China has always had lots of ships, the difference is that they are replacing them with modern vessels today.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:20 am

    Well they will rule the seas a hell alot more then Russia will by 2030 thats for sure.

    And China has always had lots of ships, the difference is that they are replacing them with modern vessels today.

    What are you smoking ?

    If China wants to rule the world they will face EU, US and russian navies and not forget japan, south korea, vietnam ...

    Russia is also replacing older ships with new ones to secure its borders and will destroy anything coming 1000km from mainland.

    US and EU have the most updated navies and they have hundreds of bases around any sea. China outside its waters is naked with no support from subs since its subs suck.

    China can't have a secured shipment of its oil from ME let alone rule the world.
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    Post  walle83 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:07 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Well they will rule the seas a hell alot more then Russia will by 2030 thats for sure.

    And China has always had lots of ships, the difference is that they are replacing them with modern vessels today.

    What are you smoking ?

    If China wants to rule the world they will face EU, US and russian navies and not forget japan, south korea, vietnam ...

    Russia is also replacing older ships with new ones to secure its borders and will destroy anything coming 1000km from mainland.

    US and EU have the most updated navies and they have hundreds of bases around any sea. China outside its waters is naked with no support from subs since its subs suck.

    China can't have a secured shipment of its oil from ME let alone rule the world.  

    Do you even read what im writing? Rule the seas more then Russia was my words.

    Yes Russia is replacing some of its naval vessels, however with mostly smaller and fewer vessels. Also in a very slow pace. Granted they are armed with impressive weapons but they could also even loose its blue-water navy status if they dont start producing larger vessels soon. China is in the quite the opposite sitiation. They are replacing older smaller vessels with larger, more modern ones, in a very fast pace. And are well on the way to get its b-w-n status.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:02 pm

    That's still nonsense. Russia doesn't want to rule the seas. No country can rule the seas. China can't even forbide to the US to go through Taiwan strait while having something like 10 time more ships there than the US at any given time even without type 055 destroyers.

    Russia is building Gorshkovs for its blue water force and renovating all its nuclear sub forces. And contrary to China it doesn't need a navy to protect it interest. They have natural ressources at home and their biggest parteners are connected to them by land or closed seas where it is much better to have a good air force rather than a blue water navy.

    On the other China import its oil from far away and needs to protect that. It also export/import through sea lanes going near tens of powerfull countries that can cut supply lines.

    Go check some maps before comparing what can't be compared. Chinese military interest are in the south (pacific, indian oceans and Middle East and maybe Mediteranean) not Bering strait or north pole.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:27 am

    Isos wrote:That's still nonsense. Russia doesn't want to rule the seas. No country can rule the seas. China can't even forbide to the US to go through Taiwan strait while having something like 10 time more ships there than the US at any given time even without type 055 destroyers.

    Russia is building Gorshkovs for its blue water force and renovating all its nuclear sub forces. And contrary to China it doesn't need a navy to protect it interest. They have natural ressources at home and their biggest parteners are connected to them by land or closed seas where it is much better to have a good air force rather than a blue water navy.

    On the other China import its oil from far away and needs to protect that. It also export/import through sea lanes going near tens of powerfull countries that can cut supply lines.

    Go check some maps before comparing what can't be compared. Chinese military interest are in the south (pacific, indian oceans and Middle East and maybe Mediteranean) not Bering strait or north pole.

    Agreed 100%, but of course the topic is itself rather absurd.  Russia threatened by the Chinese navy?  Pfftt..  You might as well talk about how threat of the British RN to the Dutch or Belgians...  Its nonsense but its just the sort of Murican neoconnish fuktardery that poses as "strategic thought" these days - endless debates about ideologically-mandated scenarios that won't come to pass but are nonetheless promulgated by so-called "experts". Heck, have you ever visited Quora?  The absurd questions that are continuously posed by Russophobe/Sinophobe pro-establishment empty-heads is simply staggering...  No
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:11 am

    The quality of the new weapons being introduced should be seen as an indication of the level of improvement in other areas... the Americans keep bollocking on about how wonderful the F-35 is and how it can detect targets and pass back target data for US ships to use cruise missiles and SAM missiles to engage the targets the F-35 find... well the Russian Navy seems to be able to do the same thing with all their naval aircraft, so MiG-29KR and Su-33 can share target data with surface vessels and their radar picture and sonar picture is also shared across ships from carriers to corvettes and subs and frigates and everything else.

    The Russian military started with its C4IR systems when it was working on upgrading everything and that is pretty much in place and is being improved as new weapons and new ships are evolving and developing.

    They have corvettes and Frigates... 6-7 years from now they will have scaled up the designs to Destroyer and will already be looking at cruisers and CVNs for the early 2030s... they are doing a good job and are getting things right... having modern capable C4IR is rather more useful than having hypersonic missiles... but soon they will have both... which is rather more superior than having one or the other... ironically the US has C4IR but they don't have they hypersonic missiles...
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    Post  walle83 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:12 pm

    Isos wrote:That's still nonsense. Russia doesn't want to rule the seas. No country can rule the seas. China can't even forbide to the US to go through Taiwan strait while having something like 10 time more ships there than the US at any given time even without type 055 destroyers.

    Russia is building Gorshkovs for its blue water force and renovating all its nuclear sub forces. And contrary to China it doesn't need a navy to protect it interest. They have natural ressources at home and their biggest parteners are connected to them by land or closed seas where it is much better to have a good air force rather than a blue water navy.

    On the other China import its oil from far away and needs to protect that. It also export/import through sea lanes going near tens of powerfull countries that can cut supply lines.

    Go check some maps before comparing what can't be compared. Chinese military interest are in the south (pacific, indian oceans and Middle East and maybe Mediteranean) not Bering strait or north pole.

    "Doesnt want to rule the seas" Yeah right. Its a difference between wanting something and not having the need for it, or the ability to make it happen. (of course thats also debatable).

    Building in a very slow pace yes, as i already mentioned.

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    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:53 pm

    The first 22350M will perhaps go very well in the early 2030s. Fear to think how much China will bring destroyers at this time.
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 pm

    Arrow wrote:The first 22350M will perhaps go very well in the early 2030s. Fear to think how much China will bring destroyers at this time.


    "The first Gorshkov M will be in 2027" you wanna guess to whom this citation belongs?


    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7620p325-project-22350-admiral-sergei-gorshkov-2#256305

    To yourself jocolor

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    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:23 pm

    Of course, because all Russian ships are built according to plan. There are always delays...
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:39 pm

    Arrow wrote:Of course, because all Russian ships are built according to plan. There are always delays...

    So many delays that this is what you said right before talking about 22350M...

    "Is not known whether the Leader will ever in service. And when it will service, maybe it will be after 2040" jocolor
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 am

    Well of course there are delays... because the alternative is to produce crap that looks good on paper but doesn't work... like the Zumwalt destroyers, or Ford Class carriers, or those little ships they were making and have now decided they want something more like the Gorshkov Frigate design...

    Or those british ships that can't operate in warm water areas, because it needs cold sea water to keep the engines cool.

    This is probably the sort of problems Chinese sailors are finding on new Chinese ships... which is why new generations are coming out all the time as problems are found and fixed they seem to want to give it a new designation.

    I suspect they will also pick several solutions and build them and then decide which to mass produce and which not to... they clearly have plenty of money to do so, so why not.

    The problem for the Russians is that they don't have bottomless pockets of money to throw away, and they are being much more conservative and sensible... what else could you expect?

    The point is that the Russians have a defence force based on Navy and Air Force and Long range Aviation with a variety of subs, ships, and aircraft as well as missiles and satellites and IADS that was initially set up to defend Russia from NATO... there is no chance the Chinese will grow to be that level of threat to the Russians... Russia and China have much better relations than Russia has with any NATO member let alone NATO as a whole, but even if they did Russia can just make more missiles... it is cheap and easy.

    China doesn't even have its own air defence warning system to warn them of attack from the US or Japan or anyone... Russia is helping them with that which will be good for China and good for Russia... it is not in Russian interests for the west to surprise attack China.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:52 am

    The theme of this thread is pathetic fantasy delusion in the west. They wish and project onto Russia some Chinese land grab.
    The usual western schizophrenia. They laugh at human wave warfare but then invoke it as the real deal when it serves their
    fantasies. Russia is no pushover to any world power.

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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:23 pm

    kvs wrote:The theme of this thread is pathetic fantasy delusion in the west.   They wish and project onto Russia some Chinese land grab.  
    The usual western schizophrenia.   They laugh at human wave warfare but then invoke it as the real deal when it serves their
    fantasies.   Russia is no pushover to any world power.


    They can take Hong Kong let alone Sibiria.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:12 am

    Isos wrote:
    kvs wrote:The theme of this thread is pathetic fantasy delusion in the west.   They wish and project onto Russia some Chinese land grab.  
    The usual western schizophrenia.   They laugh at human wave warfare but then invoke it as the real deal when it serves their
    fantasies.   Russia is no pushover to any world power.


    They can take Hong Kong let alone Sibiria.

    If you mean can't the PLA could march into HK and fix the issue with ease, they simply don't wish to do that right now.

    Also, this thread is talking about possibilities and what if's.

    I see people talking fantasy crap all the time when it's positive for Russia but if it's negative then it's "Pathetic fantasy".

    So fantasy you like is okay but the fantasy you don't like is bad, Mhm of course.
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    Post  walle83 on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:36 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    I see people talking fantasy crap all the time when it's positive for Russia but if it's negative then it's "Pathetic fantasy".

    So fantasy you like is okay but the fantasy you don't like is bad, Mhm of course.

    respekt
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:20 am

    If you mean can't the PLA could march into HK and fix the issue with ease, they simply don't wish to do that right now.

    Amusing... Russia fan boys are called up on the slow construction rate... we are saying they are getting the basics right on the smaller ships so that they will be right on the bigger ships to come. The technology is modular and scalable... it is not like the UKSK launcher on a Corvette is different to one on a Cruiser, so once all the problems are sorted out for the smaller ships on which they are new technology, then not only will the smaller ships be able to be mass produced in large production runs to suit the needs of the Russian Navy, but those systems and modules should be more mature and developed so larger vessels should be quicker and easier to get right and in production too.

    When we say there is no point in rushing in to mass production until they get everything working... otherwise they might end up like the F-35 with 300 in service but still with hundreds of problems that need to be fixed... it is cheaper to get it right and then mass produce than to mass produce and try to fix problems as they come up... which is likely what China is doing.

    The PLA wont march in to HK because the west will turn on them fully and all that money they make in western markets will dry up... which wont destroy their economy... they have enough people to sell products to themselves, but it will seriously stunt their growth and development and might lead to things they really don't want... like the US fully supporting Taiwan and lots of other countries doing the same resulting in Taiwan declaring full independence from China... which could be very very serious... and really not what China wants at all.

    The Value of Hong Kong is that it is an economic centre used by many who would not do the same in China... if they seize HK it stops being HK that it is now.

    I see people talking fantasy crap all the time when it's positive for Russia but if it's negative then it's "Pathetic fantasy".

    Pathetic = western government funded. Like rebellion in Siberia, or ISIS in control of Syria, or Russians actually going to the Ukraine to fight Ukrainians... you know... bullshit... specifically in this case it is China fighting Russia or India fighting China, because that would suit the US and the west right down to the ground... they would love it and they would do everything to encourage it and make it worse for all parties involved. They don't give a shit about who gets killed... look at the mourning the Syrian and Libyan and Iraqi dead because of what they do?

    So fantasy you like is okay but the fantasy you don't like is bad, Mhm of course.

    Oh please... giving lectures on double standards... are you still in Syria stealing Assads oil Mr Terrorist?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:52 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    kvs wrote:The theme of this thread is pathetic fantasy delusion in the west.   They wish and project onto Russia some Chinese land grab.  
    The usual western schizophrenia.   They laugh at human wave warfare but then invoke it as the real deal when it serves their
    fantasies.   Russia is no pushover to any world power.


    They can take Hong Kong let alone Sibiria.

    If you mean can't the PLA could march into HK and fix the issue with ease, they simply don't wish to do that right now.

    Also, this thread is talking about possibilities and what if's.

    I see people talking fantasy crap all the time when it's positive for Russia but if it's negative then it's "Pathetic fantasy".

    So fantasy you like is okay but the fantasy you don't like is bad, Mhm of course.

    They can't. With this crisis they are finding out military power is not enough.

    Well, I'm not a fanboy of anyone. But there is no more biased than US fanboys.

    Russian superiority in military hardware over chinese is a fact. Chinese expension over the south and internal migration in the south are also facts. Chinese navy having no real goal or plan is also a fact. Chinese can't solve HK issue and are totally afraid that it spread out in the rest of China is also a favct. There is no fantasy.

    The biggest threat to China are chinese. If they start revolting against the Party, China will split in many parts. They already lost Taiwan and HK people don't want them there.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:07 am

    Isos wrote:They can't. With this crisis they are finding out military power is not enough.

    Isos wrote:Chinese can't solve HK issue and are totally afraid that it spread out in the rest of China is also a fact.

    The biggest threat to China are chinese. If they start revolting against the Party, China will split in many parts. They already lost Taiwan and HK people don't want them there.

    Sorry man, but thats total BS.

    Despite the endless yabbering from our private-media monkeys, the HK "crisis" isn't about the PRC but about the radicalisation of a faction within HK society that is deeply resentful of Chinas economic success and the corresponding collapse in HK's relevance and relative afluence vis-a-vis the mainland. China is leaving HK behind on every metric, and many HKers can't handle that fact.  These clowns have internalised the old propaganda trope about HK being exceptional and the mainlanders being ignorant and stupid and poverty-striken and repressed, and these idiots simply can't handle current day realities.  They react with racism and organised violence, discriminating against Mandarin-speakers and treating visiting mainlanders with disdain, beating people in the streets, casuing chaos and wrecking public infracture while Western gubbermints and private-media whores cheer them on (and simultaneously ignore the rioter violence and condemn the gov for its "brutal" response - shades of Maiden on display for all to see).

    China doesn't run HK.  The HK government and judical system is exactly what the British left behind when they left. Nothing significant has changed.  Instead of a London-appointed Governor you now have a Beijing-appointed Chief Executive, but other than that, everything else remains unchanged. In any event, HK is part of China, and it's future is to be just another Chinese city, one of many, and not an especially important one.

    Those are HK polic in riot gear, not mainlanders. The number of Chinese soldiers on the streets equals precisiely ZERO (unless you want to count the un-uniformed clean up crews pitching in to remove the debris). The Chinese haven't even considered using their miltary. Why would they? Let these arrogant HK idiots deal with their own thugs, and let them deal with the consequences to their economy and reputation.  The CCP will sit back and watch HK continue its descent until the HKers finally figure out who holds the whip hand.  They can afford to wait until HK elites swallow their undeserved pride and come-a-crawling and asking for help.

    The stupid antics of the HK China-hating 5th columnist rioters have been a god-send to the CCP.  They can quite rightly show the violence and chaos to their people via State-media and draw attention to the hatred aimed at main-landers.  Chinese public opinion is absolutely scathing against the US-flag waving rioter mobs.  There is zero chance that any mainlanders are going to pick up placards and emulate the idiots in HK. They are held in TOTAL contempt, and seeing US flags waved is just icing on the cake.

    What a own-goal to the feckless Murican Deep State!!!  Laughing
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    Post  kvs on Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:43 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They can't. With this crisis they are finding out military power is not enough.

    Isos wrote:Chinese can't solve HK issue and are totally afraid that it spread out in the rest of China is also a fact.

    The biggest threat to China are chinese. If they start revolting against the Party, China will split in many parts. They already lost Taiwan and HK people don't want them there.

    Sorry man, but thats total BS.

    Despite the endless yabbering from our private-media monkeys, the HK "crisis" isn't about the PRC but about the radicalisation of a faction within HK society that is deeply resentful of Chinas economic success and the corresponding collapse in HK's relevance and relative afluence vis-a-vis the mainland. China is leaving HK behind on every metric, and many HKers can't handle that fact.  These clowns have internalised the old propaganda trope about HK being exceptional and the mainlanders being ignorant and stupid and poverty-striken and repressed, and these idiots simply can't handle current day realities.  They react with racism and organised violence, discriminating against Mandarin-speakers and treating visiting mainlanders with disdain, beating people in the streets, casuing chaos and wrecking public infracture while Western gubbermints and private-media whores cheer them on (and simultaneously ignore the rioter violence and condemn the gov for its "brutal" response - shades of Maiden on display for all to see).

    China doesn't run HK.  The HK government and judical system is exactly what the British left behind when they left. Nothing significant has changed.  Instead of a London-appointed Governor you now have a Beijing-appointed Chief Executive, but other than that, everything else remains unchanged. In any event, HK is part of China, and it's future is to be just another Chinese city, one of many, and not an especially important one.

    Those are HK polic in riot gear, not mainlanders. The number of Chinese soldiers on the streets equals precisiely ZERO (unless you want to count the un-uniformed clean up crews pitching in to remove the debris). The Chinese haven't even considered using their miltary. Why would they? Let these arrogant HK idiots deal with their own thugs, and let them deal with the consequences to their economy and reputation.  The CCP will sit back and watch HK continue its descent until the HKers finally figure out who holds the whip hand.  They can afford to wait until HK elites swallow their undeserved pride and come-a-crawling and asking for help.

    The stupid antics of the HK China-hating 5th columnist rioters have been a god-send to the CCP.  They can quite rightly show the violence and chaos to their people via State-media and draw attention to the hatred aimed at main-landers.  Chinese public opinion is absolutely scathing against the US-flag waving rioter mobs.  There is zero chance that any mainlanders are going to pick up placards and emulate the idiots in HK. They are held in TOTAL contempt, and seeing US flags waved is just icing on the cake.

    What a own-goal to the feckless Murican Deep State!!!  Laughing

    Interesting. So HK is exhibiting the same pathology as the Baltics, Ukraine and etc. They fancied themselves special but weren't. Cry me a river.

    Dima
    Dima

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    Post  Dima on Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:21 am

    kvs wrote:The theme of this thread is pathetic fantasy delusion in the west.   They wish and project onto Russia some Chinese land grab.  
    The usual western schizophrenia.   They laugh at human wave warfare but then invoke it as the real deal when it serves their
    fantasies.   Russia is no pushover to any world power.

    To be honest, I still cant believe this thread exists and so much discussion going on here.

    The intent of the thread was simple, divert and create a wedge between Russian & Chinese interests.

    This thread is 99.9% the handywork of the same J-20Hotdog/etc, who goes all around with his highly racial, anti-chinese agenda and draws in unsuspecting poster into posting and thus succeeding in his agendas.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:25 am

    kvs wrote:

    Interesting.  So HK is exhibiting the same pathology as the Baltics, Ukraine and etc.   They fancied themselves special but weren't.   Cry me a river.


    LOL!! kvs fully summarizes my wordy post in just 24 words. Laughing
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:10 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    kvs wrote:

    Interesting.  So HK is exhibiting the same pathology as the Baltics, Ukraine and etc.   They fancied themselves special but weren't.   Cry me a river.


    LOL!! kvs fully summarizes my wordy post in just 24 words.  Laughing  

    The crisis in eastern ukraine destroyed ukraine. China doesnt want the same to happen in HK.

    These clowns have internalised the old propaganda trope about HK being exceptional and the mainlanders being ignorant and stupid and poverty-striken and repressed

    If this propaganda touches other parts of China it will destroy them. They can't let HKers win against HK gov (supported by China) but they can't neither send in the PLA because it will be brutal.

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