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    walle83

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    Post  walle83 on Sat May 11, 2019 12:57 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    Why do you think so? The 052D destroyer is better armed with 64 VLS.
    Edited

    the first 4 gorshkov frigates have better sensors and radars than type 052D and 48 VLS (16 UKSK + 32 Redut).
    From the 5th ship they will have 56 VLS (24 UKSK +32 redut)

    Furthermore, the Russians have more experience with both SAMs and cruise missiles, and better weapons.

    The difference is that by the time Russia has finshed building the first 6 gorshkov China will have commissioned ~20 52D destroyers and 6-8 55 destroyers. And by 2025 China probably will have developted the next generation destroyers to replace the older types built in the 1990s and early 00s.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 11, 2019 1:02 pm

    55 destroyer has 112 VLS Shocked Shocked
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat May 11, 2019 1:21 pm

    Arrow wrote:55 destroyer has 112 VLS Shocked Shocked
    gorshkov M will have probably 96 VLS (48 UKSK + 48 redut)

    Lider much more than that.

    Nakhimov will.have 176 large VLS (80UKSK + 96 S300/S400) + 128 smaller Tor cells (unless these will be replaced by redut
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    Post  Arrow on Sat May 11, 2019 1:30 pm

    Is not known whether the Leader will ever in service. And when it will service, maybe it will be after 2040. The first Gorshkov M will be in 2027.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat May 11, 2019 4:07 pm

    Uhmm... we don't know the full load out of the Gorshkov-M yet Rodion, if models are to be believed it would most likely also have S-400s.
    But nothing's confirmed yet.

    All we know is the next batch of Gorshkov will have 24 UKSKs instead of 16.

    As for Lider, don't expected that ship to even enter construction until after 2025, if ever.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 11, 2019 4:17 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russia has only one Akula II class K-157 Vepr and one Akula III class Gepard. These submarine will not stay long in service.

    And it has several improved Akulas which are the same equipment. All of them are capable of wrecking PLAN, not to mention Oscar IIs.

    Kh-47M2 Kinzhal  probably can hit ships.

    Everything we have can hit ships, especially Chinese ships. If the engines they shipped to us are as shitty as the ones we received, their entire littoral combat fleet is useless.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat May 11, 2019 4:50 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Uhmm... we don't know the full load out of the Gorshkov-M yet Rodion, if models are to be believed it would most likely also have S-400s.
    But nothing's confirmed yet.

    All we know is the next batch of Gorshkov will have 24 UKSKs instead of 16.

    As for Lider, don't expected that ship to even enter construction until after 2025, if ever.

    It is not clear, they could build it at Baltiskiy Zavod, if they have enough capacity and resources at the plant. It was the same plant that built also the Kirov class Battlecruisers.

    At the moment.they are building there the new artika class nuclear icebreakers (3 vessels, the latest of the 3 should be delivered in 2022 but they could.extend the serie) and probably plan also to build additional large diesel class icebreakers project 22600 (the first of which.is being fitted out at admiralty shipyard).

    If so they could probably start building liders there in 2022/2023, unless they decide to build them at Zvezda or at Severnaya Verf post modernisation (severnaya verf is however indicated as possible builder of all russia navy ships above 2000 tons except aircraft carriers, but inclusive of large LHDs, so they probably need to decide which classes they want to prioritize).


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    Post  Arrow on Sun May 12, 2019 9:40 am

    This is old submarines from the 80s. They are not better characteristic than new Chinese SSNs and they will be withdrawn around 2030
    The new type 095 id probably level on 971U/M
    Oscar II has two screws, two shafts so it's  makes more noise from 971? So Russia  are not many modern SSNs.



    First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 Shocked The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 12, 2019 11:11 am

    Arrow wrote:....
    First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 Shocked The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.


    Chincom subs are trash, stop chugging commie bodily fluids

    As for ships, take a look at the list of places China plans on going to: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam

    All require ships to take out and most have huge number of ships and subs themselves

    Take a look at the map: China is parked right in the Pacific and completely exposed, Russia has two glorified ponds, one reflective pool, one nearly empty Pacific beach where nobody can do anything without getting erased and one giant frozen wasteland up North

    Chinese and Russian surface fleet requirements are nowhere near the same level

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    Post  walle83 on Sun May 12, 2019 12:12 pm

    Arrow wrote:First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 Shocked The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.

    15 052Ds? Since 2014 China has commissioned 10 vessels with a further 7 in sea trails or in construction. By 2030 the number should easily be 20-25 ships.

    Also they have launched 4 type 055 destroyers with 1 commissioned since 2017. By 2030 they should have 10-15 active ships.
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    Post  Arrow on Sun May 12, 2019 12:30 pm

    So by 2030, the Chinese navy will have about 35 destroyers. Russia 6 frigate Groshkov and 1 Groshkov M Smile
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    Post  Tingsay on Sun May 12, 2019 12:45 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:

    You will refrain from personal attacks and insults to forum members.  
     

    I was in the wrong for calling him a moron given the new rules in place. Doesn't change how i feel about him.

    I agree that this forum should not be one of nothing but Russia praising. But is also shouldn't be a Russia bashing one.  I have never seen him say anything positive to say about Russia. Anybody who has sense knows what Arrow is up to. He is here to troll and doesn't even encourage objective discussion. He just post stuff like "armata is a fail cos they are not ordering more than 1000" (not his exact words,just rephrasing). When has he ever leaved up to the spirit of discussing/debating?

    Same thing with Artiside. What has he done other than praise France in a forum about Russia? He has a right to criticize Russia all he wants but when has he ever tried to be at least objective?

    Again, I agree with you, this forum should not be a Russia cock-sucking one nor should it be a Russia hating one. It works both ways,.

    Arrow wrote:

    This is old submarines from the 80s. They are not better characteristic than new Chinese SSNs and they will be withdrawn around 2030
    The new type 095 id probably level on 971U/M
    Oscar II has two screws, two shafts so it's  makes more noise from 971? So Russia  are not many modern SSNs.



    First Gorshkov M will be near in 2030. China at the same time, it builds 15 destroyers 052D and another few 055 Shocked The Russian navy will be a dwarf on Chinese.
     

    Once again, China is supposed to have a larger navy than Russia.

    Do you know China's population as compared to Russia's? Do you know how economically different they function? Have you seen the world map lately?

    Your comparing apples to oranges. Chinese Navy actually has a bigger burden, if they truly ambition to match the US. Russia is smart not to do it, because they don't have that requirements hence Navy getting smallest budget from the 3 branches. I mean what exactly does Russia as of right now and the next 10-20 years, have to protect in the middle of the Indian ocean or the Pacific aside from broad, meaningless words like "interests'? Sure, interests are present there but nothing that justifies a carrier battle group patrolling there.

    While your at it, why not criticize Russia for not having 20 carriers and 100 destroyers? You totally disregard requirements, given Russia's current situation and geopolitical world order, anyway. Rolling Eyes

    Funny thing is that a stronger Chinese Navy is beneficial towards Russia. Only thing Russia needs to do is build enough gas and oil pipelines piercing through China!  And with that, Chinese Navy is essentially an extension of Russian interest. Shocking  Laughing  
    China will deal with the Western hegemony in theSCS, Pacific and Indian ocean while Russia deals with the European front. Heck without the senseless European Nato behavior, Russia would have only half of it's current Military requirements.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm

    Arrow wrote:So by 2030, the Chinese navy will have about 35 destroyers. Russia 6 frigate Groshkov and 1 Groshkov M Smile

    Spoiler: Chinese aren't building those ships for Russia Cool

    Again, check the map
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 12, 2019 2:26 pm

    Arrow wrote:So by 2030, the Chinese navy will have about 35 destroyers. Russia 6 frigate Groshkov and 1 Groshkov M Smile

    IS THERE NO END TO THE TROLLING WE MUST ENDURE FROM THIS PRICK?   angry

    Seriously, we have to listen to lectures about tolerating the opinions of others or being "respectful", but this guy is just taking the piss...  Suspect
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    Post  Arrow on Sun May 12, 2019 2:50 pm

    I do not troll, I only compares the development of the navy of Russia and China. Where China will have a much more powerful navy. Although Russian frigates will be much better armed. China will not have such bullets for a long time as Oniks and Cirkon. Russia also needs a strong navy if it wants to be a suuperpower.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 pm

    Tingsay wrote:

    I was in the wrong for calling him a moron given the new rules in place. Doesn't change how i feel about him.

    I agree that this forum should not be one of nothing but Russia praising. But is also shouldn't be a Russia bashing one.  I have never seen him say anything positive to say about Russia. Anybody who has sense knows what Arrow is up to. He is here to troll and doesn't even encourage objective discussion. He just post stuff like "armata is a fail cos they are not ordering more than 1000" (not his exact words,just rephrasing). When has he ever leaved up to the spirit of discussing/debating?

    Same thing with Artiside. What has he done other than praise France in a forum about Russia? He has a right to criticize Russia all he wants but when has he ever tried to be at least objective?

    Again, I agree with you, this forum should not be a Russia cock-sucking one nor should it be a Russia hating one. It works both ways,.

    Respecting forum members and not making personal attacks has always been a rule.  If you don't agree with what he says then beat him with words.  As soon as you resort to personal attacks you have already lost the argument.   I don't care what side you are on, we want constructive debate regardless of the argument.  

    Funny thing is that a stronger Chinese Navy is beneficial towards Russia. Only thing Russia needs to do is build enough gas and oil pipelines piercing through China!  And with that, Chinese Navy is essentially an extension of Russian interest. Shocking  Laughing  
    China will deal with the Western hegemony in theSCS, Pacific and Indian ocean while Russia deals with the European front. Heck without the senseless European Nato behavior, Russia would have only half of it's current Military requirements.

    Having a strong China is only good for us if we maintain a force strong enough to dissuade China from turning on us.  If Chinese ABM ever become good enough to defeat our nuclear deterrent you would find them growing some balls. Their current strategy of taking our territory is flooding the Far East with illegals who will declare independence once they get a majority.  Then they would make a land grab deep into Siberia to control all of our vast natural wealth.  China is the biggest threat we face as the US isn't the one that wants to annex us.  Fortunately for us the quality of Chinese steel is not up to the standards of transporting the PLA deep into the rugged Siberian terrain and their air forces are highly dependent on our engines.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 12, 2019 3:05 pm

    Arrow wrote:I do not troll, I only compares the development of the navy of Russia and China. Where China will have a much more powerful navy. Although Russian frigates will be much better armed. China will not have such bullets for a long time as Oniks and Cirkon. Russia also needs a strong navy if it wants to be a suuperpower.


    Unless China plans to sail around the world and invade St. Petersburg I don't see how comparing Chinese and Russian navies matters for anything.

    China can build 20 CVNs and 250 destroyers and it still wouldn't count for shit when it comes to Russia (unless they install wheels on them and drive them onto dry land)

    How about comparing Chinese Navy with Japanese, South Korean or USN? You know, stuff it's built for.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 12, 2019 3:19 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:...Their current strategy of taking our territory is flooding the Far East with illegals who will declare independence once they get a majority...

    You just took KKK line about Mexicans and replaced it with Chinese.

    Are you going to add that Chinese have secret cities inside Russia which are launch point for Yellow Takeover® ?

    Because that's that latest nonsense I got on Reddit this week on the topic of Russia.

    What's with pathological fear of Asians? At least they aren't genocidal maniacs.

    Keep Europeans on kill-switch and worry not about bunch of chincoms who have at least 5 other countries (non-nuclear ones) to deal with before they even notice Russia exists and who can't take several cruise missiles into sewer system before suffering cholera pandemic.


    Vladimir79 wrote:...China is the biggest threat we face as the US isn't the one that wants to annex us...

    Correct, they just want to partition and exterminate you all

    It's Europeans who want to annex you (after Americans do all the heavy lifting involving combat and extermination, after all precious Europeans can't overexert themselves, so precious they are, precious sensitive darlings)

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    Post  PhSt on Sun May 12, 2019 8:54 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:...Their current strategy of taking our territory is flooding the Far East with illegals who will declare independence once they get a majority...


    Vladimir79 wrote:...China is the biggest threat we face as the US isn't the one that wants to annex us...


    How could you easily dismiss USA’s centuries old goal of dismantling Russia and turning it into fractured mini states just like what they did to Yugoslavia? Fear mongering about a possible Chinese invasion among locals in Russia could even be a deliberate CIA influence operation with the aim to sour growing relations between the two countries. Nothing benefits NATO more than a Russia and China that is hostile to each other, how could you miss such an idea? If China is really intent of grabbing its neighbor’s territories then they should have already started with weaker countries like Laos, Myanmar, etc since these countries have less powerful armies to resist the Chinese military at the same time their climate is more suitable for habitation and growing crops, compared to the cold and frigid Russian far east. If you are going to argue about natural resources, China can just buy them from Russia, why would they need to start an invasion? It makes no practical sense unless you subscribe to NATO propaganda.

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    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Sun May 12, 2019 9:24 pm

    Russia is needed by both USA and China. USA needs Russia to balance out its internal political differences. USA is divided like never before, internally there are contradictions which have the potential to destabilize the internal situation even worse than it already has. The democratic party, other deep state organs, and intelligence agencies are openly in the wrong conducting a coup on the white house. The executive branch is fighting for survival and basically major figures have already been arrested and given hard time. This is devolving even further, as investigations conclude that president Trump has nothing linking him to collusion with Russia. In order to survive, the executive must go after Ukraine.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/why-did-trumps-lawyer-cancel-his-trip-to-kiev/

    We will deliver the Ukrainian nationalists on a silver platter to Putin, if we can get the Ukrainians who gave Trumps information to Democratic party, and intended to do damage to our internal politics. Ukraine is fucked right now. Trump has no use for Ukraine, and will use it as a bargaining chip with Putin to resolve his own internal predicament. The Ukrainians spit on Russia and USA, for this Ukraine will be ripped apart by both, USA will ensure Ukraine is nothing more than a province. They intended to have our president arrested and jailed, and gave positions to democratic officials.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/oleg-tsarev-the-us-gave-zelensky-a-tough-ultimatum/

    As for China, Russia needs Chinese support economically and will balance out political overtures made by the white house. China has not helped Russia out much in its situation, it has not invested in Russia and has not helped overseas with other situations in Syria or Venezuela. China is sitting on its ass, doing the same thing Russia should be doing which is watching China and USA waste each other in a financial war. China has been watching Russia and USA waste each other while they get rich. USA realizes nothing will stop China unless USA confronts China openly. Russia has time to lick its wounds and gather itself, while US imposes 250 Billion$ of sanctions, and China will basically drop 1 Trillion$ of treasuries. Russia has insulated itself from the global economy for this purpose. Russia does not need Gorshkov M's to defeat USA or CHina. It needs to shelter itself from the global financial meltdown that is about to commence.

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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 6:02 am

    I have a lot of chinese friends here in New Zealand and they came here to live in a different country... not to spread china to the world with the goal of ultimate conquest.

    First generation chinese here in New Zealand were rather badly treated... we even had a chinese tax that new chinese immigrants had to pay.

    In my personal experience of local chinese the first generation could not speak english and they generally owned market gardens and grew vegetables, or owned takeaway food shops and sold originally fish and chips, and later chinese or asian food as that became more popular. They worked hard and paid for their children to get good educations... their children spoke excellent english and worked hard and became lawyers and doctors and were very good citizens. Their culture is slightly different but I like them better than quite a few other ethnic groups...

    Unfortunately for some groups like Pacific Islanders, their views on work are more family related... once they have earned what they need they don't keep working, their focus is family and living life... most of us stupid white people see them as lazy.

    What I am saying is... if 5 million Chinese want to cross the border into Russia and build cities and factories and lives for them and their families then give them Russian passports, and teach them to speak Russian and welcome them... it is the people who arrive and then expect to be looked after that you have to fear.

    Trying to build up the Russian fleet to fight China is just an Americans wet dream... what would be the point of such a conflict?

    To weaken both countries to improve the position of the US and the west.

    Russia does not want to invade or starve China by imposing economic sanctions, China does not want to invade or impose economic sanctions on Russia... it is kinda banking on Russia being part of its great plan of transport and trade routes from Asia to Europe... an open war between the two countries would ruin that.

    The US currently is imposing economic sanctions on both Russia and China and is being aggressive to both countries in the South China sea and the black sea and anywhere else it can manage... it is not rocket science to see who the real enemy is.

    The original Admiral Gorshkov will be very useful in and around Russian waters, and a 7K ton enlarged model with better weapons and systems will be a useful support vessel for more global missions with other larger vessels like the proposed 20K ton destroyer.

    They wont build up the fleet they want and need in the next few weeks it will take a couple of decades, but the future multipolar world will make it a necessity rather than an expensive luxury if they want to have a say in who they can trade with in the future.
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    Post  kvs on Mon May 13, 2019 6:20 am

    US decades long policy of splitting USSR and China and more recently Russia and China has failed on an epic scale.
    This talk of Russia fighting China is an example of the delusional thinking afflicting western deciders and their
    MSM mouthpieces.

    China sees no value in US style imperialism. Making an ally out Russia is vastly more intelligent than making it into
    an enemy. Too bad the f*cktards running NATO don't understand this.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 13, 2019 6:34 am

    Simple fact that Russia could nuke China and China would lose much more people than Russia in such a move, gives indication that China will only pick on the smaller weaker countries much like US.

    Only difference is, China is moving into smaller and weaker countries with handfull of money for development and doesn't come with a gun like US does.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 13, 2019 8:50 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Simple fact that Russia could nuke China and China would lose much more people than Russia in such a move, gives indication that China will only pick on the smaller weaker countries much like US.

    Only difference is, China is moving into smaller and weaker countries with handfull of money for development and doesn't come with a gun like US does.

    With China spending billions on ABM research it is only a matter of time before they can nullify ICBMs.  The only force that will matter will be conventional and as such we are heavily outnumbered.  China doesn't invade smaller countries because it will trigger the US to respond.  They couldn't care less if China invades Russia, they would cheer them on.
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    Post  Arrow on Mon May 13, 2019 9:06 am

    Chinese ABM is less advanced than Russian. Russian ICBM and SLBM and new wepons like Poseidon, Burevestnik, Cirkon weapons are the most advanced in the world.

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