Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #2

Good penetration with heavy projectiles, but low chance of ricochet...

Interlinked wrote:First information on the AK-47 ever obtained by the CIA, and probably outside the USSR as well. Fascinating stuff. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A001000900006-5.pdf

No, Czech ZB had already both the calibre and rifle. In their ZB vz 52 rifles trials they couldn't adapt the 7,62x39 with the mechanism without redesign. This was later extended to Poland. Finish MoD also had images of the AK in 1953, not schemes but pictures.

Bitchez, the tender for new Squad Automatic Weapon for the Russian National Guard and Interior Ministry has at least 4 entries.

We know for Sure 3 of them.

OTs-124
Kord 2
RPK-16
4th is supposed to be an rehashing of the old A-999 project.

But, the special thing is that a new calibre is on the works.

6,7x51mm. Designation 6,7BS.

Source?

Why new calibre calibre now? Someone finally realised old 7,62x54R deserves retirement as it is the oldest cartage design in the world still in military use? Is this new 6,7BS classical design with metal case or something more experimental like telescopic design or ad least polymer casing?  How come Russian National Guard gets the new cartage when military is still on old 7,62x54R? Is 6,7BS designation hint this is all BS?

So many questions!

ZoA wrote:Source?

Why new calibre calibre now? Someone finally realised old 7,62x54R deserves retirement as it is the oldest cartage design in the world still in military use? Is this new 6,7BS classical design with metal case or something more experimental like telescopic design or ad least polymer casing?  How come Russian National Guard gets the new cartage when military is still on old 7,62x54R? Is 6,7BS designation hint this is all BS?

So many questions!

Why do you need sources, trust me.

https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/990503599674462208

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Why do you need sources, trust me.

as spy another spy

as for ammo - looks like century old intuition of Fedorov proves that ~ 6,5x50mm round has best ballistics for assault guns ))

6.7x51mm would certainly sound like a good calibre to replace the old rifle/MG round...

I would assume they probably learned a lot from their recent work with .338 Lapua Magnum rounds and other exotic rounds they have been playing with that are intended for use in the 1 to 2km range (338 extends effective range from about 800m for 30 cal rifle rounds to about 1.5km or so).

What they learned could have been applied to their previous 6x49mm (which was originally a 6x51mm round from memory....) ammo.

I have read that they have also developed an improved .338 Lapua Magnum. (9.2x69mm instead of the original 8.6x70mm)

Low drag bullet shapes with heavier longer projectiles that move through the air more efficiently losing less speed and therefore less energy mean they reach the target quicker and with more energy.

I would say introducing a new range of weapons (rifles and MGs and LMGs) is a good time to introduce a new calibre, but setting up production for the entire Russian military would be a big step... introducing the ammo in steps could allow problems to be dealt with before they become huge.

Would be interesting to see if this calibre is going to get any testing in Syria for example where longer range shooting would be made easier due to the flat open environments...

GarryB wrote:6.7x51mm would certainly sound like a good calibre to replace the old rifle/MG round...

I would assume they probably learned a lot from their recent work with .338 Lapua Magnum rounds and other exotic rounds they have been playing with that are intended for use in the 1 to 2km range (338 extends effective range from about 800m for 30 cal rifle rounds to about 1.5km or so).

What they learned could have been applied to their previous 6x49mm (which was originally a 6x51mm round from memory....) ammo.

I have read that they have also developed an improved .338 Lapua Magnum. (9.2x69mm instead of the original 8.6x70mm)

Low drag bullet shapes with heavier longer projectiles that move through the air more efficiently losing less speed and therefore less energy mean they reach the target quicker and with more energy.

I would say introducing a new range of weapons (rifles and MGs and LMGs) is a good time to introduce a new calibre, but setting up production for the entire Russian military would be a big step... introducing the ammo in steps could allow problems to be dealt with before they become huge.

Would be interesting to see if this calibre is going to get any testing in Syria for example where longer range shooting would be made easier due to the flat open environments...

This is not going to be introduced right away. The consensus is that the round is still " a bit too much". So far the Kord 2 is favored & the SOO line of weapons is promising but i really think they will keep more conventional weapons like the Brat-2 and RPK-16.

How do those tenders work? Does guard issue request for offers in specific cartridge, or do contenders offer their own ammo solutions?  Who is actually developing the cartridge? Is this purely national guard initiative or does ministry of defence have a say in choice of cartridge for sake of standardisation in-between services?

ZoA wrote:How do those tenders work? Does guard issue request for offers in specific cartridge, or do contenders offer their own ammo solutions?  Who is actually developing the cartridge? Is this purely national guard initiative or does ministry of defence have a say in choice of cartridge for sake of standardisation in-between services?

The tender is issued by the Interior Ministry. Initially the National Guard tender asked for over 120K items. 90K rifles/30K Squad Automatic Weapons. As it became painfully obvious that the Rifles from Ratnik will take some time to be fielded in numbers, the IM asked for their own guns. Then It limited the tender to SAW's.

Once the trials funded, the tender found that completely new weapons in 5,45 were not all that interesting and that a modernization of the RPK would yield enough results to live by another day without spending crazy money.

However the SOO had a full set of weapons. DMR (OTs-129), SAW (Ots-124), Pistol (OTs-122). There is a rifle in the bag with the the OTs 128 with a shorter barrel than the OTs-129.

And here we are.

The funny part is that for once Russia has a complete alternative to its legacy weapons. The newcomers (Lobaev, Orsis) have succeeded into having ready to go weapons for a rearmament. And Tula has also chimed in. In the mean time the legacy manufacturers are there as well.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
This is not going to be introduced right away. The consensus is that the round is still " a bit too much". So far the Kord 2 is favored & the SOO line of weapons is promising but i really think they will keep more conventional weapons like the Brat-2 and RPK-16.

"a bit too much" means new caliber in money organizational terms or that 6,7x51 is still too powerful?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:
This is not going to be introduced right away. The consensus is that the round is still " a bit too much". So far the Kord 2 is favored & the SOO line of weapons is promising but i really think they will keep more conventional weapons like the Brat-2 and RPK-16.

"a bit too much" means new caliber in money organizational terms or that 6,7x51 is still too powerful?

Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

hmm to why not 6x49mm then? or like 0.3 Blackout alter 7,62x39mm round to use existing weapons and have more potent weapons? not unified ammo though

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

hmm to why not 6x49mm then? or like 0.3 Blackout  alter 7,62x39mm round to use existing weapons and have more potent weapons? not unified ammo though

This is a byproduct of a technical lab. At the beginning the goal was to build weapons around the 5.45, then because the Kord-2 was drawing lessons from the Negev, the logical thing was to pit it against the PKP. And clearly while the PKP was the winner in terms of both reliability and ease of use, the Kord-2 was great in every sense except the initial chain-links. To achieve reliable feeding the Russians went back to a fixed link belt. At that point it was no use to issue a new weapon.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:
Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

hmm to why not 6x49mm then? or like 0.3 Blackout  alter 7,62x39mm round to use existing weapons and have more potent weapons? not unified ammo though

Why do you want a 'black out' round so bad, when 9x39mm exists, and is superior to the .300 blackout in ever facet? Blackout was a response to the 9x39mm round.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
hmm to why not 6x49mm then?

Probably barrel life.

This is not going to be introduced right away. The consensus is that the round is still " a bit too much". So far the Kord 2 is favored & the SOO line of weapons is promising but i really think they will keep more conventional weapons like the Brat-2 and RPK-16.

Too much?

I would think in the rifle calibre machine gun field it would be a great replacement for all 7.62x54mmR based weapons... PKM, PKP, and SVD/SV-98.

I would think it would make sense to eliminate one calibre... 7.62x54mmR from the squad logistics tail... though of course that would also mean the enormous job of replacing all coaxial MGs in all the armoured vehicles too, which would be a huge job... but ultimately worth it in the long run if it offers better performance in a lighter more compact and rimless form.

I would love a hunting round in 6.7 x 51mm... I do suspect that to get a decent performance it will need high velocity so plastic driving bands would be a requirement to prevent short barrel life... but that is OK... I don't reload so it would not be an issue.

Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

But isn't that ideal?

I mean too powerful to replace the 5.45x39mm is fine... it was never meant to replace that calibre... it was supposed to be a more controllable lighter and modernised rimless replacement for the 7.62x54Rmm round which is pretty much obsolete. (it still does the job, but it was the only thing in 1990 Russian service that was actually a Russian invention.)

hmm to why not 6x49mm then? or like 0.3 Blackout alter 7,62x39mm round to use existing weapons and have more potent weapons? not unified ammo though

The cost of introducing 6x49 would be the same as introducing the 6.7x51... put it this way... to reduce the cost of replacing the SGM medium machine gun in the role of coaxial armament in tanks and armoured vehicles they actually made the barrel of the PKT longer as well as heavier so its trajectory matched the SGMTs trajectory so they didn't have to recalibrate or replace the optics.

Introducing a new calibre is not just replacing PKMs and SVDs, it is all the gun in armoured vehicles too.

I think a unified cartridge to replace both the 7.62x54 and 5.45x39 would just be more expensive and not that effective... out to 300m or so the 5.45mm should still be fine and is lighter and with less recoil than anything you could replace it with.

A 6.7x51 or 6x49 on the other hand will be lighter and slightly smaller than the 7.62x54Rmm., but also have a longer effective range, lower recoil and more lethal effect on target. Simpler push through mechanisms would also be possible as would straight mags and simpler drum designs.

Probably barrel life.

Plastic driving bands solved that issue AFAIK...

Why do you want a 'black out' round so bad, when 9x39mm exists, and is superior to the .300 blackout in ever facet? Blackout was a response to the 9x39mm round.

The 9x39mm round has been in service since the late 1980s and is rather more widely deployed than most westerners seem to understand...

Which Rifle is this seen in V Day Parade ?

Nope AK-74MR kits.

This is either an old photo or as I suspected the MR kits were basically already punted to the parade arsenal.

[quote]

GarryB wrote:

This is not going to be introduced right away. The consensus is that the round is still " a bit too much". So far the Kord 2 is favored & the SOO line of weapons is promising but i really think they will keep more conventional weapons like the Brat-2 and RPK-16.

Too much?

I would think in the rifle calibre machine gun field it would be a great replacement for all 7.62x54mmR based weapons... PKM, PKP, and SVD/SV-98.

I would think it would make sense to eliminate one calibre... 7.62x54mmR from the squad logistics tail... though of course that would also mean the enormous job of replacing all coaxial MGs in all the armoured vehicles too, which would be a huge job... but ultimately worth it in the long run if it offers better performance in a lighter more compact and rimless form.

I would love a hunting round in 6.7 x 51mm... I do suspect that to get a decent performance it will need high velocity so plastic driving bands would be a requirement to prevent short barrel life... but that is OK... I don't reload so it would not be an issue.

The 6,7BS is, once again, the product of a technical process. They had Three Machine Guns to compare from according to people in the know. And old data from the Negev (including the Negev itself).

Minimi, courtesy of the French Armed Forces, MK 48 courtesy of an arm transfer from Kyrghyz armed forces (some say it was actually weapons gotten from Taliban) and more interestingly IMI NG7 from Vietnam. These delve also into the data obtained from China regading their own type 88.

So IMO this round was actually biased into shape by the fact the two most powerful machine guns were in 7,62x51, this means that they would find that the best choice would be a larger round, instead of the smaller 7N series.

At that point, the weapons firing do not really matter, because the round is already way more powerful than the 7N series. In that perspective the tender was already at stake, because it was supposed to be related to the SAW experiment as it was implemented by the NATO forces.

Ironically, this screams more a lack of ideas, rather than a new breakthrough. The Soviet bock had some decent experience with the RPD, which in return proved outstanding to the limits of its round.

Both.

It's not a real unified round. The difference is still noticeable in recoil and weight. So while it is a promising round it's still work in progress.
It will be costly, both because of weapons & ammo cost.

But isn't that ideal?

I mean too powerful to replace the 5.45x39mm is fine... it was never meant to replace that calibre... it was supposed to be a more controllable lighter and modernised rimless replacement for the 7.62x54Rmm round which is pretty much obsolete. (it still does the job, but it was the only thing in 1990 Russian service that was actually a Russian invention.)

hmm to why not 6x49mm then? or like 0.3 Blackout alter 7,62x39mm round to use existing weapons and have more potent weapons? not unified ammo though

No the point was to make a 7N machine gun, not replace a calibre.

So if I follow you correctly this round was just part of a move to develop a lighter PKP that can use conventional magazines and be a light machine gun...

So where did the actual round come from?

Shouldn't TSNIITOchMash be developing new rounds... isn't that what they do?

As I have said before... sure, changing calibre and changing guns is expensive... but it has to happen eventually... delaying it is not going to make it any cheaper and lets be honest... it would be cheaper to change calibre when you are introducing new guns than to go through the process now of introducing new guns and then later introducing a new calibre and have to alter multiple different types of weapons to the new calibre.

Admittedly if the new guns are multi calibre then that actually makes things much much easier it introduce a new calibre, but that is not really the point for all the existing non multicalibre types in storage.

If they were looking at new calibres for LMGs then I assume they would also adopt the new calibre for sniper rifle and squad machine gun roles too?

Personally I don't think they need to look at western SAWs... they have their own experience from the second World War with the RP-46 in full calibre belt and drum feed guns and the later belt fed assault rifle calibre in the RPD and then the LMG version of the AK in the RPK and now RPK-74 and RPK-16.

I would say an RPK-16 with a decent scope and a 95 round mag should be all the local fire support a squad needs... if it is not enough then PKP...

If you find you still want a more powerful weapon that is lighter than a PKP then you obviously need a replacement for the 7.62x54mm ammo... something lighter with better reach, like 6x49 or 6.7x51.

If you go for that step then what you want is an RPK-16 in the heavier round...

It is not that hard people...

I mean they are spending a small fortune on each Ratnik kit of equipment... they have picked 5.45 and 7.62 assault rifles... when it comes to rifles and machine guns they should bit the bullet and upgrade to a new round that extends range for rifles and machine guns, and another one for longer range work (ie that 9.2x69mm they developed from the .338 Lapua magnum...)

Hell, why not a PKG in 9.2x69mm optimised for shooting at 1.5km plus at point targets... a sniper machine gun...

Ohh ohh... when you mention 6.7x51mm I notice they already make a 6.16x51mm round... a necked down 7.62 x 51mm round better known as .243 Winchester...

I hope these are different rounds...

GarryB wrote:Ohh ohh... when you mention 6.7x51mm I notice they already make a 6.16x51mm round... a necked down 7.62 x 51mm round better known as .243 Winchester...

I hope these are different rounds...

It isn't a necked down NATO but a compromise from the Sellier & Bellot over-100 grain .243 with a derivative bullet from the 7N series, the main difference since in the shoulders of the case.

The bullet tested is 125 grain according to hearsay. Which would be the average Match bullets on a 7.62 NATO. Ironically, both Lapua and Sako make these bullets in 6.5x47 and 7.62x54R. Probably the Russians know about them for a while.