[Official] Armata Discussion thread #4

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

walle83 wrote: I think u r confusing the US with Russia when it comes to sharing technology

3 examples please confirming your opinion  so  can better understand your thought behind this rhetorical figure.       lik esanctions? blocking source code to partners who co-build f-35?

As for the European countries not developing 5th generation aircrafts, well as it stand the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen E is enough to meet any russian threat now or in the near future. Than add the F-35 to this.

And why and Russia is going to attack EU its biggest (so far soon will be Asia) trading partner? develop please your ideas. I am really interested in this topic. Especially Germany who is a natural ally ln Russia in Geopolitics. France to lesser extent too.

Or perhaps Serbia was threat?!         so peace doves from peaceful west were bombing mostly of civilian population and infrastructure?



You read too much wiki
F-35 troubles: Pentagon refuses to accept new aircraft as its makes problem report ‘Top Secret’
https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/f35-troubles-pentagon-refuses-to-accept-new-aircraft-as-its-makes-problem-report-top-secret/news-story/220610ce01157b1c32dbc947135a3b26

F-35 not finished? What I read the F-35 is in use and is attacking with great success down in Israel. Accourding to wikipedia about 300 planes has so far been built.

and  Israeli propaganda outlets       They never flew close to Damascus as could be hit by Pantsirs (Assad's ones)


BTW  I've even saw once in supermarket "traditional Israeli sup Krupnick" . Especially that very often stock is based on pork      

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupnik_(soup)

Krupnik is a thick Polish soup made from vegetable or meat broth, containing potatoes and barley groats (kasza jęczmienna, archaically called krupy - hence the name)

I have no idea how the european economies are standing against the Russian, u brought that up not me. I do know that the total Russian economy is very small if u compare it to countries in europe. Like twice the size of the Italian or something?

is ti more less size of German one (even with Us data) - check PPP in wiki .  Russian economy is developing on more less same pace as German now. Despite US waging economical war against Russia (as US and their serfs are to scared to attack with military component) . I count thet with current reforms economy goes faster in next 2-3 years.

But most important parameter here is a military budget. This one is planned till 2027 and nothing is gonna be cut.   Neither Armata nor Su-57 progammes were cancelled.


Approach towards buying new stuff in Russia is different from US though. In US they first produce pay then fix. In Russia they seem to buy after growing pains are fixed. Thus perhaps your opinion is based on lack of understanding how does it works in Russia?



I wonder how does it relate to your claims that Russia economy "now" is poor and Russia is cancelling programmes?

As for numbers of F-35 orderd by the UK, i have no idea, again im talking about Russia. Although i would not be suprised, the UK has a history of changing its military priorites ovre and over again.

so in Russia you call this cancelling to null and in UK change in priorities? am I getting it right?

Have a nice day!

likewise mate.

Bla bla bla...

Everything to get lost in deep conversations right. Stick to the subject in hand.

The fact is that Russia has just announched that it will not produce, exept in very small test series (probably not to loose face totaly), 2 of its most prestigious new generation military hardware. And, again, the reason they themself has given for this is........its to expensive. Even after the production cost for each tank has dropped?!

If this isnt becouse of money issues, then please explain the real reason for this?

So what u think that reducing large orders has nothing to do with lack of cash? What planet are u living on. First the russian gouverment was to buy about 200 PAK-FA, then is was down to ~150 back in 2010 with the first fighters to be deliverd by 2016. Then in 2016 is was down to 55 planes by 2020, now its 12...with no further plans for mass production. Same with the Armata, orders went from ~2.500 units to 100. And the reason that has been given for this? Not enough money/ to expensive.

I think I have identified your problem... you don't understand the Russian militarys procurement process.

When they spend a large amount of money developing a new system, say PAK FA, once they have gotten to the point of serial production they don't order as many as they will ever need. They order a small batch and they send that batch to their training and operational procedures units who operate the products and pretty much create operational manuals (manuals for pilots and ground crew on how you operate and maintain the aircraft) and then you create tactics and operational use manuals... new technologies and capabilities change the way a unit operates and how aircraft can be used.

Once that is done, then a new batch of aircraft is produced... say 36-38 that are deployed to front line units, with those units passing on their planes to other units and so on. Eventually another batch of aircraft is ordered... and then another until the Russian Air Force is happy with how many they have in service and with which units they have them operational with.

They were never going to say... well the Su-57 is ready... we are making 250, so here is an order for 250 aircraft. That is just silly.

After testing and production of 12 they will have found problems in production and operation that might lead to design changes and manufacturing changes, so the next batch might have an improved production process... and might be made faster or easier or cheaper.

BTW, 57mm gun is rifled, so, as all dedicated tank and AT guns in USSR/Russia in the last 50 years are smoothbore, the main role of such armoured vehicles will not be tank kill, but rather general purpose, anti-helicopter, atgm nest suppression, anti DZOT, etc.

The 57mm gun is used in the IFV role so half the ammo will be HE rounds... the 30mm cannon and 100mm gun on the BMP-3 are both rifled too.

sovereignty of European countries, but the Russians having an army within their own borders is terrifying. Oh man we are lame

More than that... when they open airfields and bases in the arctic areas where the Soviets previously had military bases they are accused of militarising the arctic... opening bases in their own country is the aggression they are guilty of...

The early 80s M1 Abrams-based TTB (Tank Test Bed: 3 crewmen+unmanned turret+autoloader) prototype got finally some TLC last year and very much needed restoration, at least cosmetically

Wow... pretty much what the Armata MBT model looks like without all the framing and optics etc... no great surprise... they had quite a few old designs that were similar... for the same reason... you don't need a big heavy turret when there are no crew inside it... and even then a small turret is a good thing.

And why and Russia is going to attack EU its biggest (so far soon will be Asia) trading partner? develop please your ideas. I am really interested in this topic. Especially Germany who is a natural ally ln Russia in Geopolitics. France to lesser extent too.

Or perhaps Serbia was threat?! affraid affraid affraid so peace doves from peaceful west were bombing mostly of civilian population and infrastructure?

The only reason for Russia to fire on the EU is because the EU is a threat... that means they might try to destroy the EU, but are rather unlikely to want to capture and occupy it... after all then they would have to fix it and who wants to do that?

The fact is that Russia has just announched that it will not produce, exept in very small test series (probably not to loose face totaly), 2 of its most prestigious new generation military hardware. And, again, the reason they themself has given for this is........its to expensive. Even after the production cost for each tank has dropped?!

You mean as prestigious as the Commanche attack helo to replace the Apache, or the XM25 or XM29 rifle to replace the M16?

Please show me the articles where Russia has said it will only ever produce 12 Su-57s and 100 Armata MBTs.

As the technologies in both platforms are new they will of course be expensive initially... that is how technology works... but pretty soon as more get produced and production of these components and systems increases the costs will go down. Exports will also improve the situation...

But then how many Seawolf subs did the US put in service compared to how many they were wanting to make... they wanted to make thousands of F-22s... about 1200 was a number I remember being mentioned... followed by 750... and in the end 189 were made, so it is not really a big surprise. Do you think they always intended to make only 20 B-2s? And this is America... the worlds last superpower... in fact they want to call themselves a hyperpower.

If this isnt becouse of money issues, then please explain the real reason for this?

They plan out things and the first part of the plan was all about C4IR and getting some prototypes ready for new systems to replace all the Soviet systems still in service. That period is now ending and they are now going to move into a phase of serial production... by 2020 or so they will have gotten all the kinks out of the designs and production facilities should be ready for mass production.

Of course having said that, they don't need thousands of Su-57s... they are already making MiG-35s and Su-35s, and MiG-31s and upgrades, as well as Su-30 and of course the Su-34 is a multirole strike aircraft...

In terms of Armata... they will also have Boomerang and Kurganets based vehicle forces too... there is still a long way to go... we have seen the MBT turret and now the IFV turret, and the APC turret (30mm cannon and missiles), and we have seen a light HMG turret too, but there is a full range of turrets yet to be shown...

They had 6,000 MBTs in European Russia due to the CFE agreements.... but they are not going to make 6,000 Armata MBTs.

Priorities change with time. Russia needs more equipment out and needs to move funding to other projects first and foremost. Armata and Su-57 will be introduced in coming time but after Syria experience and use of their newer tech like Radar and AD systems, Russia realized that stealth/LO is not necessary.

So priorities are changed. It isn't like Su-35 is cheap, because it isn't. Even though it's $27M per aircraft in USD terms, it's still the same cost or a bit higher in Rubles like it was back before FOREX change. Su-30 being even more expensive for whatever reason.

walle83 wrote: The fact is that Russia has just announched that it will not produce, exept in very small test series

No fact. Fake.


The Fact:
Russia for now buys a pilot batch of T-14. Price by press release was mentioned as too high as in many cases thsi is Russia specifics negotiating vis press.

(probably not to loose face totaly),

no fact, blha blah blah

2 of its most prestigious new generation military hardware.

True.
Armata is functionally   years ahead from any real competition. It is not needed now in large numbers now.  
Once  west is going to get close to this tech Russia can start buying more to counter western aggression.in 10 years? not closer.

And, again, the reason they themself has given for this is........its to expensive. Even after the production cost for each tank has dropped?!
If this isnt becouse of money issues, then please explain the real reason for this?

Perhaps this time you can read with understanding  Depends how you understand money.

1) Money in Russian military budget is fixed no cuts in those

2)  No cuts for Armata programme either

3) Since Russia fielded a barrier (Poseidon, Kinzhal, Avangard) to keep  US / NATO  forces at bay, priorities have changed.


Is this now clearer?

The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

Stealth aircraft are a lot more expensive and harder to maintain they are also more limited in usage when it comes to the environment.

Generally, unless you are picking on a country weaker and with tech 40 years behind yours. Stealth becomes a lot less useful stealth fighters, in general, are meant to hide long enough to get that first salvo in maybe second against a hostile aircraft.

You cannot really hide them against ground-based radar unless again you're facing someone much less tech wise than you.

The problem is with stealth aircraft is to get that shape you need to sacrifice the planes ability to maneuver like a normal aircraft can. So that means if the stealth fighters fail to kill its target in the surprise salvo, its pretty much dead, the other better-optimized aircraft for maneuvering will simply outpace it.

So if you built tons of expensive has hell stealth fighters, well you're asking for a big drain on the wallet with honestly little benefit to it.

@walle83


Он напомнил, что Минобороны заказало для опытно-боевой эксплуатации 100 танков "Армата".

РИА Новости https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180821/1526929167.html

"Of course, these are new platforms and in order to launch them in a series, we need to undergo a very serious cycle of pilot operation." Almost all the platforms, since 2014, have been contracted, that is, the army has already received the required number of samples for combat operation. there are tests, and decisions on serial purchases will be made by the Defense Ministry, "Borisov added.

He recalled that the Defense Ministry ordered 100 Armat tanks for the experimental-combat operation.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

I cannot agree. Stealth is not a silver bullet but still less visibility helps, that's why Russia is also developing this. China too. Not sure about final count of Su-57 but lok at Su-35. First 48. Now 96. And something tells me its nto gonna be final number.

Same with Su-30SM


IMHO stealth numbers will depend on immediate possible threats to Russia including other air forces. Perhaps initial number will be around 100. Im sure till end of series will grow 2-3x

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

I cannot agree. Stealth is not a silver bullet but still less visibility helps, that's why Russia is also developing this. China too. Not sure about final count of Su-57 but lok at Su-35. First 48. Now 96. And something tells me its nto gonna be final number.

Same with Su-30SM


IMHO stealth numbers will depend on immediate possible threats to Russia including other air forces. Perhaps initial  number will be around 100.  Im sure till end of series will grow 2-3x

100 maybe?

but more than that iMO no way they will make that many.

It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense. It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself. Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently. But that is the purpose of it.

miketheterrible wrote:It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense.  It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself.  Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently.  But that is the purpose of it.

@miketheterrible
Sorry, please, what T-10 are you talking about? T-10 is the old heavy tank, fully discarded by 1993.
Concerning T-14 Armata MBT. it is just coming out of development stage. 100 tanks is the initial production batch, say "0" batch. As there were no new tank models in the West for 25 years, we must talk about serious problems and dilemmas over tank development, tactics and strategy. Armata is the first and only attempt to solve these huge problems and find the solution for future tank development. We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

kumbor wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense.  It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself.  Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently.  But that is the purpose of it.

@miketheterrible
Sorry, please, what T-10 are you talking about? T-10 is the old heavy tank, fully discarded by 1993.
Concerning T-14 Armata MBT. it is just coming out of development stage. 100 tanks is the initial production batch, say "0" batch. As there were no new tank models in the West for 25 years, we must talk about serious problems and dilemmas over tank development, tactics and strategy. Armata is the first and only attempt to solve these huge problems and find the solution for future tank development. We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

Not talking of T-10 tank. T-10 aircraft which is the Su-27 design.

miketheterrible wrote:

kumbor wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense.  It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself.  Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently.  But that is the purpose of it.

@miketheterrible
Sorry, please, what T-10 are you talking about? T-10 is the old heavy tank, fully discarded by 1993.
Concerning T-14 Armata MBT. it is just coming out of development stage. 100 tanks is the initial production batch, say "0" batch. As there were no new tank models in the West for 25 years, we must talk about serious problems and dilemmas over tank development, tactics and strategy. Armata is the first and only attempt to solve these huge problems and find the solution for future tank development. We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

Not talking of T-10 tank.  T-10 aircraft which is the Su-27 design.

Those where prototype planes.

If you are suggesting Russia is going to replace all it's SU-27's with SU-57's that is insane.

That would be over 300 aircraft no WAY are they building that many of those.

Those where prototype planes.

If you are suggesting Russia is going to replace all it's SU-27's with SU-57's that is insane.

That would be over 300 aircraft no WAY are they building that many of those.

Su-27 fleet is not huge anymore. Most of it is being replaced by su-35/30 and many are being upgraded to sm3 standards.

@all - perhaps lets move discussion on Su-57 to Su-57 thread?

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Those where prototype planes.

If you are suggesting Russia is going to replace all it's SU-27's with SU-57's that is insane.

That would be over 300 aircraft no WAY are they building that many of those.

300 was in original plans if Im correct...

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

kumbor wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense.  It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself.  Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently.  But that is the purpose of it.

@miketheterrible
Sorry, please, what T-10 are you talking about? T-10 is the old heavy tank, fully discarded by 1993.
Concerning T-14 Armata MBT. it is just coming out of development stage. 100 tanks is the initial production batch, say "0" batch. As there were no new tank models in the West for 25 years, we must talk about serious problems and dilemmas over tank development, tactics and strategy. Armata is the first and only attempt to solve these huge problems and find the solution for future tank development. We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

Not talking of T-10 tank.  T-10 aircraft which is the Su-27 design.

Those where prototype planes.

If you are suggesting Russia is going to replace all it's SU-27's with SU-57's that is insane.

That would be over 300 aircraft no WAY are they building that many of those.

T-10 is the design, which all these jets are based off of, hence why its T-10 and not going to say: Su-27, Su-30, Su-35, Su-30SM/MK2/Xx420_noscopexX/etc

And yes, plan was initially to replace all of them with the PAK FA design. Be it in its iteration we see now or something else used in the future, don't know. Point is, like MiG-23, Su-24, etc - its an obsolete design and will eventually need replacing.

miketheterrible wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

kumbor wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:It would eventually replace older T-10 models so over 100 makes sense.  It will eventually replace all T-10 models to become the next T-10 in itself.  Maybe in not current configuration but other configurations that are not known presently.  But that is the purpose of it.

@miketheterrible
Sorry, please, what T-10 are you talking about? T-10 is the old heavy tank, fully discarded by 1993.
Concerning T-14 Armata MBT. it is just coming out of development stage. 100 tanks is the initial production batch, say "0" batch. As there were no new tank models in the West for 25 years, we must talk about serious problems and dilemmas over tank development, tactics and strategy. Armata is the first and only attempt to solve these huge problems and find the solution for future tank development. We can`t still say whether this attempt will be succesful, but Russians are the first and only to try, as it could have been expected from Russians as the world champions in tank building.

Not talking of T-10 tank.  T-10 aircraft which is the Su-27 design.

Those where prototype planes.

If you are suggesting Russia is going to replace all it's SU-27's with SU-57's that is insane.

That would be over 300 aircraft no WAY are they building that many of those.

T-10 is the design, which all these jets are based off of, hence why its T-10 and not going to say: Su-27, Su-30, Su-35, Su-30SM/MK2/Xx420_noscopexX/etc

And yes, plan was initially to replace all of them with the PAK FA design.  Be it in its iteration we see now or something else used in the future, don't know.  Point is, like MiG-23, Su-24, etc - its an obsolete design and will eventually need replacing.

I would rather say that in SU30SM and SU-35 original SU-27 design has reached its peak of development and further substantial improvements are not possible. Anyway, they are one of the best multiroles in the world, if not the best. and much of the aircraft are new or with great lifemargins! SU-57 is coming just on time and can be put in full production when new engine is finished, in 3-4 years.

Hole wrote:He talks about the long run. All this Su-27SM and Su-27SM3 will be replaced after 2025/2030 by Su-57.

Of course. But the su-3./27Sm-sm3 are there to not be left without anything and need to buy 200 su-57 in 5 years.

What matters is how many su-57 they will order for next 10 years. After that they will have an improved version like su-35 with su-27 and no one knows how their economy will be.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

What are u talking about, the entire reason for the PAK-FA program was to develop a new fighter that could replace both the Su-27 and MiG-29. Atleast 200 aircrafts was planned to be built for the RAF.

walle83 wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The SU-57 was never going to be produced in large numbers...at best you would have seen maybe 80.

What are u talking about, the entire reason for the PAK-FA program was to develop a new fighter that could replace both the Su-27 and MiG-29. Atleast 200 aircrafts was planned to be built for the RAF.

As the thematic name goes, SU-57 is PAK-FA - Future Aviation Complex of First combat line Aviation. MiG-29 is pure First combat line "light" fighter, while SU-27 is similar, but heavier, multirole from the start and with more range.

Apparently, SU-57 was meant to replace both types, but the ideas change. Today it is more probable that for the majority of lifespan SU-57, MiG-29/35 and SU-27/30/35 will exist parallely. Numbers produced is a sensitive question. Depends on money, not tactical need!

Not quite. Challenges changed. So it isn't to do with money since 1 month of budget revenue increase could purchase quite a few Su-57's as is.

It's the need vs want. The issue is, all of it is rather new and not really proven compared to the T-10 line of aircrafts. Currently reason why we may actually see MiG-29's completely phase out and MiG-35 only token force just to keep Sokol plant alive, is because of the MiG-29 lines purpose. Su-27 series just is overall better. But it was also much more expensive. But that didn't stop Russian government for buying more. If it was to do with money, they would have gone with more MiGs rather than Sukhois

miketheterrible wrote:Not quite. Challenges changed. So it isn't to do with money since 1 month of budget revenue increase could purchase quite a few Su-57's as is.

It's the need vs want.  The issue is, all of it is rather new and not really proven compared to the T-10 line of aircrafts.  Currently reason why we may actually see MiG-29's completely phase out and MiG-35 only token force just to keep Sokol plant alive, is because of the MiG-29 lines purpose. Su-27 series just is overall better. But it was also much more expensive. But that didn't stop Russian government for buying more.  If it was to do with money, they would have gone with more MiGs rather than Sukhois

Covering russia with only Mig-29 was impossible. But covering some modern conflicts like Dombass, Syria or Georgia with Mig-35 is totally possible and cheaper than with Su-57 which is an overkill for most mission like using f-22 to bomb afghanistan. That's why they need some mig-35.

But if you have to chose only one you choose sukhoi.

If it was the case, then they would use MiG-29UB for Syria campaign, and SMT. But they only used it briefly. Stuck with much more expensive Sukhois.