Sweden and Finland accession to NATO

What they never talk about is why they feel they need to join NATO...

Is it because they are scared of Russia?

How will moving NATO to Russias borders make Russia less of a threat?

Moving NATO to Russias borders would just make Finland a target and Sweden a target... ironically a self fulfilling prophecy... when we joined NATO Russia became less friendly and more aggressive... boy it is lucky we joined NATO otherwise how much more aggressive and unfriendly would they have been if we didn't have NATO to protect us....  

All I can say is... go ahead and join... if you don't want friendly relations with Russia you might as well show it on your sleeve.

I am sure Russia will find other countries to trade with that will appreciate the business...

Of course it was Russia that made them do it by invading Crimea and now invading the Ukraine... next will be Finland and the Baltic states and then one presumes Poland...

Hope they remember they did this to themselves... but of course it will be Russias fault...

Finns Ready to Spend More on Defense, but Reject NATO Membership – Poll

More than half of Finns are prepared to spend more on defense, but reject NATO membership even if Sweden joins in, a recent poll indicates.

The survey, conducted by the Helsingin Sanomat newspaper, showed that a majority of Finns favored spending more on defense.

A quarter of those polled said they fully backed the idea of an eventual hike, while another one-third partially agreed.

As to the country’s membership of NATO, 54 percent did not think it was a good idea, even if neighboring Sweden decided to join the Western defense alliance.

72 percent said if the matter actually came up, it should be put to a nationwide referendum.

Half of those polled also spoke against building up European defenses, with 38 percent saying they favored the idea – a 15 percent jump from the previous year.

The TNS Gallup market research company surveyed around 1,000 people in late February.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150316/1019547903.html#ixzz3UZSC7JL0

Entering NATO Would Pose Security Risks for Finland – Finance Minister

In an interview for Finnish television, Finland's Finance Minister voiced his view that now is not the right time for Finland to join the Western military alliance, Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE reports.

Finnish Foreign Minister Frustrated Over NATO’s ‘Show of Force’ in Baltic
In his interview to Finnish television program Ykkösaamu on Saturday, Finnish Finance Minister Antti Rinne noted that now is not the right time for Finland to join NATO.

"In my opinion, it is absolutely clear that at present, Finland should not apply for NATO membership. My position is that NATO membership would increase the risks to our foreign and security policy." The minister was quick to add however that as an independent country, Finland is capable of taking independent decision-making in security policy based on changing global conditions.

"We need to maintain good relations with the Nordic countries, especially Sweden. The foreign and security policy of the European Union should be reflected in our policies as well. And of course cooperation with NATO is also important," the minister added.

Rinne also noted that the recent drop in the Russian economy has negatively affected Finland's own economic prospects.

Earlier this week, Finnish Foreign Affairs Minister Erkki Tuomioja voiced his frustration over the buildup of NATO military forces in the Baltic, noting that it undermines the security situation in the Baltic.

Recent polling by Finnish newspaper Helsingin Sanomat also found that 54 percent of Finns believe that joining NATO would be a bad idea, even if Sweden decides to join the alliance. 72 percent noted that if the matter actually came up, it should be put to a nationwide referendum.

Earlier this year, Finnish civil society activists asked the country's Security Police to investigate whether the Finnish Government acted against the country's constitution in bypassing government and parliament officials by signing the NATO Host Nation agreement, which allows for assistance from NATO forces in emergency situations.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150322/1019844251.html#ixzz3V6iTmv8o

NATO Membership Not an Option - Finnish Defense Minister

Finland’s Defense Minister Carl Haglund met his Swedish and British counterparts on board a US aircraft carrier Sunday in a sign of growing military cooperation between Helsinki and NATO.

In an interview for Finnish television, Finland's Finance Minister voiced his view that now is not the right time for Finland to join the Western military alliance, Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE reports. Photo: Finnish Defense Forces armored vehicles in Helsinki, Finland.

Carl Haglund joined Peter Hultqvist and Michael Fallon for a day at sea aboard the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, which is currently cruising in the English Channel.

Mr. Haglund, who was accompanied by the head of the Finnish parliament’s defense committee Jussi Niinistö and a group of defense ministry officials, said the visit was all about “normal defense policy cooperation” and had nothing to do with the upcoming elections in his country.

“We host a regular visit program with our forces afloat in theater to enable distinguished leaders to see the capability of the United States Navy,” said

Commander of the US Naval Forces Europe-Africa Admiral Mark Ferguson when greeting his guests, adding that Finland was free to decide on its possible membership of NATO.

Carl Haglund, for his part, mentioned the close military cooperation between the Finnish and US air forces. He said that Finnish pilots were flying the F/A-18 Hornet strike fighter aircraft, dozens of which are normally stationed on board the Theodore Roosevelt.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150323/1019878327.html#ixzz3VCtzQQDX

Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy


Sweden's submarine force is relatively tiny, just five boats make up the entire inventory, but those five vessels are extremely stealthy and lethal, especially their three Gotland Class diesel-electric submarines. Entering service in the mid 1990s, the 1600 ton displacement Gotland Class was the first operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarines in the world, which gave them the previously unprecedented operational ability (for non-nuclear submarines at least) to stay submerged for weeks at a time

The Gotland Class can also act like a traditional diesel-electric submarine and run on its standard diesel engines while surfaced or snorkeling. It can also run on battery power alone, where it can hit speeds up to 20 knots submerged. The capability to patrol silently for weeks on AIP, run un-stealthily on its standard diesel engines, or rocket through the water for shorter periods on silent battery power alone, give the Gotland Class a certain tactical agility that is very hard for the enemy to predict.

The Gotland Class measures 200 feet in length and are just over 20 feet in width. They are crewed with an incredibly lean compliment of 24 sailors and officers. These submariners are put through exhaustive psychological and physiological testing to make sure they can handle life aboard the small vessel.

As for weapons, these capable little submarines feature four 533mm torpedo tubes that can fire the time-tested and heavy hitting Bofors Underwater Systems Type 613 torpedoes. The "Torpedo 613" is an incredibly powerful anti surface ship weapon, packing a range of about 12 miles, an engagement speed of 40kts and a massive high-explosive warhead weighing in at nearly about 650lbs. A newer updated multi-role heavy torpedo that can be used against both surface and submarine targets is also carried by the Gotland Class, called the 'Torpedo 2000.' This cutting edge weapon has double the range of the Torpedo 613, although less raw explosive power. Sixteen 533mm class torpedoes can be carried at any given time about the HMS Gotland and her two sisters ships.


What makes this small and quiet sub even more deadly is her combat management system which is truly state of the art and is said to feature an incredibly user friendly interface. During a single attack, the system can guide multiple torpedoes at once, which can result in more than a mission kill for even very large naval combatants like aircraft carriers, with each torpedo striking in a different section of the hull if ordered to do so.


The Gotland Class boats then participated in open-ocean exercises in the Atlantic where they trounced much more advanced Spanish, French and US players, including a French nuclear fast attack sub and the American Los Angeles Class SSN, the USS Houston.

Other exercises soon followed and the little Gotland Class boats continued to be a very lethal force to reckon with. By the mid 2000s, other countries were starting to field or develop AIP capable diesel-electric submarines, including Russia and especially China. Since the US Navy had retired its last diesel-electric (non-AIP) attack submarine in 1990, the USS Blueback (now a local resident here at Oregon's Museum of Science & Industry) there was no indigenous force to practice hunting down diesel-electric subs, yet alone ones with advanced AIP capabilities. Thus the US Navy went to Sweden hat in hand in hopes of leasing one of their ninja-like Gotland Class boats, and its crew, for a year. The Swedish sub would be playing the adversary to America's massive constellation of anti-submarine surface combatants, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, and especially nuclear submarines. The Swedes granted this request and the Gotland was shipped to San Diego aboard a mobile drydock.

By mid summer of 2005 the Gotland arrived in San Diego and war games immediately commenced. Apparently the Navy got more than they were bargaining for when it came to finding and engaging the stealthy little sub. The Gotland virtually "sunk" many US nuclear fast attack subs, destoryers, frigates, cruisers and even made it into the 'red zone' beyond the last ring of anti-submarine defenses within a carrier strike group. Although it was rumored she got many simulated shots off on various US super-carriers, one large-scale training exercise in particular with the then brand new USS Ronald Reagan ended with the little sub making multiple attack runs on the super-carrier, before slithering away without ever being detected.

Seeing as the HMS Gotland can sneak its way through many miles and layers of anti-submarine defenses surrounding a US super-carrier, entering literally the most defended and highly surveyed area in the world, one would think sneaking up on a Russian midget sub would be well within Sweden's stealthy sub's repertoire.

Then again, maybe they actually have been hard at work over the last six days of the search as they still would have at least another week before they would even have to come up for air. The same can be said for Russia's new AIP submarine designs, the active Lada Class and the upcoming Amur Class. And that is just the problem, not only are AIP boats so hard to detect, but they are also relatively cheap, and will give friendly and enemy states alike a resurgent clandestine subsurface capability.

With this in mind, I doubt that Sweden's wild goose chase will be the last one of its kind for some time. As this technology spreads we will probably see more and more news about "foreign objects"suspected to be operating closely off friendly shores.


AND SWEDES WERE BALMING RUSSIA FOR SENDING A BLACK HOLE SUB

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984#

So dangerous that the sweden government shit themselfs about non existing russian subs in Swedish waters.

Read my reply on PLA Navy thread . How US is using sats to detect diesel aip subs .

Sweden Should Refrain From Joining NATO - Parliamentarian

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150423/1021280911.html#ixzz3YAWGANUS

Such a lovely semi-heated discussion!

Things I've noticed happening here:
- The media is trying to scare people with Russia. This is remarkably stupid, ridiculous and even dangerous. If only they stuck to the facts and didn't paint a horror picture on top.  (like there could be a headline "Russia prepares for war". What?  They have refresher training. So do we. Which army doesn't? )
- Some politicians (this might change, there is a new parliament after elections now) are trying to drive us into NATO (I personally don't see the benefits of joining over not joining. But I have limited information.) The majority of people don't want to join, and if it comes to it, people want to vote for or against
- Sweden is in deep trouble after its military reform. It needs strong allies or to revert back to conscript service
- Finland is heading towards deep trouble, maybe the new parliament will actually agree to fund the armed forces instead of spending the money elsewhere.. time'll tell
- Russia would be greatly annoyed if NATO expanded any closer to it.

As it is, Russia doesn't really threaten us. If it came down to a big scale war, I think Russia would want to secure the Baltic sea. This is where Finland and Sweden are key players. If for some reason, some Russian general decided to play it safe and take control over the shores rather than trust Finns or Swedes, there would be an awful awful conflict here as well. That said, we have to keep a military force suited for our defence active and as in good a shape as possible. Because without one, every nation in the world is a threat.

And NATO or not, it's up to the Finns and Swedes. Sovereign nations make their own decisions, for better or for worse. One thing the Russian government seems to fail to see is that it is their own actions that cause this kind of nervous stir in the politics of their neighbours. There is a vast cultural difference, and nether "side" seems to be willing to bridge the cap right now. Slightly worrying.


There has also been a lot of talk about bringing the Swedish and the Finnish militaries closer together. But I think the Swedish politicians emphasize this would be during peace time only.. (Everyone likes to share costs, no one wants to do the dirty work..)
I personally wouldn't mind having access to the capability of the Swedish air force..

Oh, and as for the strength of the Finnish forces:

Organization
The Defence Force employs about 12,300 soldiers and civilians, and trains a further 25,000 conscripts and 18,000 reservists annually.
Personnel are deployed on operations and exercises in Finland and overseas, including Afghanistan, Kosovo and Somalia.
Finland’s maximum wartime capacity is 230,000, including the Army, Navy and Air Force.

From the FDF site. Can't post a link there apparently.

Russia never made the first move . They took counter measures to thwart nato and usa games . Its obvious stubb and his party see russia as aggressors . Finland is also in troubles economically due to russian retaliation .

max steel wrote:Russia never made the first move . They took counter measures to thwart nato and usa games . Its obvious stubb and his party  see russia as aggressors . Finland is also in troubles economically due to russian retaliation .

Well, Stubb and his party are out from the government for now, it seems. There'll be a new government soon, we'll see what happens then.

If you refer to the situation in Ukraine, pretty much 99% of the European people see Russia as the aggressor. Why wouldn't we, based on what we know and what we are told. Russians seem to think of themselves as liberators. Why wouldn't they, based on what they know and are told.

Actually I've not seen an effective Russian retaliation. Finland has slowly but surely driven itself into economical crisis all by itself over the past 8-12 years. It is however true that the recent events have caused some companies, especially ones trading with Russia, trouble. Mostly due to restrictions placed by the EU, not Russian ones to my understanding. Russia stopped accepting some of our foodstuffs and Finns were overjoyed: the stuff Russia didn't accept, especially cheeses, was sold to the Finns much cheaper than it would normally have been (goes to show food market is controlled by lying thieving sons of bitches only worried about getting richer). There was even a name for these, the "Putin cheese". In addition to that, Finns started buying more Finnish products in general.

I don't think it effected the relationship the people of the 2 nations have with each other much. Finns living near the border are more than happy to cross it to go buy fuel and tobacco and such things. I've seen a decrease in the numbers of Russian tourists, which is a bit of a shame.

If you refer to the situation in Ukraine, pretty much 99% of the European people see Russia as the aggressor. Why wouldn't we, based on what we know and what we are told. Russians seem to think of themselves as liberators. Why wouldn't they, based on what they know and are told.

That is far away from the truth. Majority of people do not trust our western propaganda, with constant faked footages using syrian down helicopters to porpatray russians and novorussians as the aggressors, hiding the facts that US is in Ukraine government but at the same time barking like a corgi that Russia is meddling in Ukraine, while polish, US and lithunians are in Ukraine government same with Sackarschwili being there the little genocider.

Fact is here in germany more than 60% do not trust our US propaganda.

Werewolf wrote:

If you refer to the situation in Ukraine, pretty much 99% of the European people see Russia as the aggressor. Why wouldn't we, based on what we know and what we are told. Russians seem to think of themselves as liberators. Why wouldn't they, based on what they know and are told.

That is far away from the truth. Majority of people do not trust our western propaganda, with constant faked footages using syrian down helicopters to porpatray russians and novorussians as the aggressors, hiding the facts that US is in Ukraine government but at the same time barking like a corgi that Russia is meddling in Ukraine, while polish, US and lithunians are in Ukraine government same with Sackarschwili being there the little genocider.

Fact is here in germany more than 60% do not trust our US propaganda.

Ha, interesting. Very few people trust neither US or Russian propaganda (or even proper news anymore, thanks to the propaganda) here. Luckily, we do have our own news agencies, but they seem to leave stuff out and sometimes delibrately tell things so something comes out in a bad light. Much milder than the BS from the bigger countries, but still it happens. I'm sorry to hear German news are even more awful.

I read somewhere USA has troops, probably those green beret type of guys, training the Ukrainian army. That is not going to make things easier down there. There are no angels in this situation. But, to my knowledge, it all started to form into an armed conflict when Russian troops started appearing (outside their base already there, just to clarify). Obviously there was a political mess before that. My knowledge might be wrong, too. Whatever caused the Russians to use the military down there made the neighboring countries in Europe restless. And caused a massive effect on the media, making Russia the big bad wolf (I should say bear).

What most Russians seem to fail to understand is that every time they do something, there will be a counter reaction. And what most Finns seem to fail to understand there will be a counter reaction to the counter reaction. A mess develops very quickly, but is not easy to clean up.

I read somewhere USA has troops, probably those green beret type of guys, training the Ukrainian army. That is not going to make things easier down there. There are no angels in this situation. But, to my knowledge, it all started to form into an armed conflict when Russian troops started appearing (outside their base already there, just to clarify)

That was a good thing that russian soldiers in Crimea have presented that they will not tolerate any attacks against them, that did not escalate situation but prevented that Crimea was going to have same Nazi filled situation like it is currently in East Ukraine. Russia was the reason why so many ukrainians deserted and pledged alliance to DNR.

What most Russians seem to fail to understand is that every time they do something, there will be a counter reaction. And what most Finns seem to fail to understand there will be a counter reaction to the counter reaction. A mess develops very quickly, but is not easy to clean up.

Wrong, it is russia that is reactionary and not the one that makes actions as the first one.

Crimea had a referendum only because US with their snakes have steered up shit and orchastrated entire Maidan, paid people, have been meddling in this "protests" by handing out bred from POLITICIANS that is already the breakage of souvereignity when you take sides in a foreign countries demos.

Russia did absolutley nothing first they only reacted.

It turned into an armed conflict when Kiev regime didn't accept LPR , DPR republics referendum . Russian troops have rights to be in Crimea .


" What most Russians seem to fail to understand is that every time they do something, there will be a counter reaction "


Well they are countering what US did in Ukraine ( catapulting right wing groups , training them in Poland to carry out protest , 1500 usa employees were working in kiev embassy before maidan coup de'etat  .)  Well usa is certainly loosing its propaganda and deception game via media in this conflict . Ofcourse , Russians made wrong moves too but only when US pulled the trigger in ukraine .

My 2 cents on finnish election :

NWO won the Finnish elections :- Opposite Center Party won by landslide but an earthquake was needed, did not materialize. Conservative Party (Stubb) lost greatly but not enough to qualify it as a catastrophe. Stubb personally lost half of his votes compared to last elections. The small Swedish People's Party of hawkish defense minister Haglund held its positions. Paradoxically the party gained support from the ultra-nationalist far-right Finns who are impressed by Haglund’s fierce anti-Russian policies. – My assessment: There will be a NWO government, with Center Party, Conservative Party (Stubb), True Finns Party (Soini) and Swedish People’s Party (Haglund). The opportunistic – and utterly devoid of any content - chairman of the Center Party Juha Sipila will be the Prime Minister. Stubb will become foreign minister and Haglund will continue as minister of war preparations. This would leave Soini from True Finns with the ministry of finance, but as a true populist he might not want to take that responsibility. – The True Finns Party is a faux-anti-EU party, which in fact is there only to suck in the protest votes in support of the Euro-elite, the way Zhirinovski is collecting the protest vote in Russia in favor of the government.
The PM in spe Sipila has said during the campaign that he thinks Finland should not join NATO but anyway left the door open for that. He will for sure be pulled in by Stubb and Haglund – and your propaganda media - through that door left ajar.
Nothing good awaits Finland, the economy will keep deteriorating, unemployment and poverty will grow and relations with Russia will be finally destroyed beyond repair. So in next elections all these parties will lose. – If there will be any more elections.


Very inaccurate analysis of Finnish elections are spread in the international and Russian media. Here some comments.

- It is an exagerration to say that the opposition has won. In Finland we have very many parties and they have to form coalition governments. In the outgoing government we had 6 parties. The opposition Center party won 5% more votes than in previous elections, but that gives them only 25% of seats in the parliament. The ruling Conservative party of Prime minister Stubb lost only 2%. Most likely (I expect) the Center party and Conservative party will form the new government together with the True Finns party and the Swedish People’s party of the present rabidly anti-Russian NATO hawk, Carl Haglund (defense minister in present government).
- The Center party is equally pro-EU as the Conservative party, they are not equally fanatically pro-NATO, but all the same pro-Nato, and the NATO skeptical candidates of the party all lost. The True Finns party are faux-EU sceptics and also very pro-NATO. Most likely all these 3 parties with addition of the Swedish People's party will form the government and therw will be no change in the politics
- We can expect no change in Finland’s foreign politics. The anti-Russian, pro-NATO politics will continue
- The new government will not be able to offer any alternative for the economic politics either. Most likely they will cut the budget but that will only increase unemployment and poverty. Finland will go towards economic and political ruin with that kind of a new government
- Sipila is a total opportunist, he has no own political line, he just wanted to be prime minister. In election campaign he said very little and tried to please everyone. Finland’s population are against sanctions and against NATO therefore Sipila gave some statements that would please that electorate, but at the same time he said we must leave open the possibility to join NATO, this means he actually will go for it if the West forces him to it. He has made no significant statements that he would be against sanctions. I am sure there will be no change in this respect. Only thing is that Sipila will behave himself more diplomatically than the rabidly anti-Russian and low-bred Stubb. But that will not make big difference as Stubb will be the foreign minister (I expect)
- In fact present PM Stubb's party did not do so bad, they only lost 2%, although he personally lost half of the votes compared with previous elections. He could have lost much more but Finland’s propaganda media was very much helping him, and also the very lackluster performance of Sipila. A stronger opposition leader would have won much more


Anti-NATO parties grab top spots in Finland general election lol!
http://rt.com/news/251065-finland-election-centre-party/


Really embarrassing that RT writes such bull... (Correctly speaking it is whimsical feelgood reporting). The parties winning the Finnish elections are in no way anti-NATO, on the contrary they are pro-NATO. They have just been adapting their political message to the public opinion which is anti-NATO. (It is very easy to manipulate the public opinion in Finland considering that the totalitarian propaganda media will not challenge them). The winning Center party chairman Sipila has said that he does not favor NATO membership "at this point" but "that possibility must be left open". What kind of anti-NATO is that? The position of the True Finns party chairman Soini is similar, but in deeds he has been more actively pro-NATO. His party chaired the parliamentary committee that fasttracked in 2014 in an unconstitutional fashion the so-called Host Country agreement with NATO, the stated aim of which is to create NATO bases in Finland. This in full connivance with the Center party which has not in any way protested. - RT should not give air to its wishful thinking. These parties are not anti-NATO but rather less publicly manifestly pro-NATO

Interesting to learn about different points of view. Pity most points of view seem to be polar opposites. It's not an easy conflict to solve when everyone is having a different view on things and no one is willing to back away. By this I mean the decision makers, not the common folk.
Anyways, this is a bit off topic, but whatever goes on in Ukraine will directly effect the political decisions in Sweden and Finland.

Slightly more on the topic,
According to a survey, about 70% of the members of the new parliament in Finland are against NATO membership. Can't link the source here, and it would be in Finnish.
Looks like joining NATO won't happen any time soon.

Anti-NATO parties grab top spots in Finland general election


http://rt.com/news/251065-finland-election-centre-party/


Really embarrassing that RT writes such bull... (Correctly speaking it is whimsical feelgood reporting). The parties winning the Finnish elections are in no way anti-NATO, on the contrary they are pro-NATO. They have just been adapting their political message to the public opinion which is anti-NATO. (It is very easy to manipulate the public opinion in Finland considering that the totalitarian propaganda media will not challenge them). The winning Center party chairman Sipila has said that he does not favor NATO membership "at this point" but "that possibility must be left open". What kind of anti-NATO is that? The position of the True Finns party chairman Soini is similar, but in deeds he has been more actively pro-NATO. His party chaired the parliamentary committee that fasttracked in 2014 in an unconstitutional fashion the so-called Host Country agreement with NATO, the stated aim of which is to create NATO bases in Finland. This in full connivance with the Center party which has not in any way protested. - RT should not give air to its wishful thinking. These parties are not anti-NATO but rather less publicly manifestly pro-NATO



One of my finnish journalist friend wrote this ^

Hmm yes. There is no such thing as an anti-nato party in power in Finland at the moment. There is a pro-nato party, and they just "lost" the election. (They are still in the parliament, but in opposition).

This bit I would not agree with:
(It is very easy to manipulate the public opinion in Finland considering that the totalitarian propaganda media will not challenge them)

The pro-nato party tried this for years and years. Trying to win people over to their side. Ironically, what Russia did in Ukraine, boosted with some air space violations, had a bigger pro-nato effect (although this effect was boosted by the media, I admit) than the party ever managed to have.
That said, I'm not a journalist, so they might see things from a different perspective.

People really didn't like the host agreement, and I don't think any media actually brought up and told the people its full contents. Basically, Finland agreed to provide logistical support for NATO troops practicing in Finland. It does not allow NATO countries to practice or even pass through here, though. That would require a different agreement. Good thing too.

I've heard nato troops ( basically yanks ) practice in Finland to get used to Russian winters . Improving the mistake what Hitler committed

max steel wrote:I've heard nato troops ( basically yanks ) practice in Finland to get used to Russian winters . Improving the mistake what Hitler committed

They did some urban warfare and some arctic things. That was a really weird thing.. They have Alaska, they have NATO allies in Norway.. Yet they came here for a really short time, and in extremely small numbers too. I do not know their motivation for this, but seems more like a PR thing than anything else.  Probably it was R&R for them.

The FDF published a video about it:


Oh I think it has happened twice now.. This is from the older occurence.

Norway is a great asset in north for nato . Moreover Konsberg and raytheon are making 5th generation Naval anti-ship missiles to target both sea and land base targets .

They have access to lots of cold places to play games... I wonder why they would send troops to Finland to practise... and tanks to the Baltic states...

It is an attempt to pressure Russia.

BTW regarding the Ukraine situation if you want the truth you have to wonder why the Russians would send troops into the Ukraine. Securing the Crimea and preventing chaos so a free and fair referendum could take place makes sense and is believable... but the idea they have sent troops into the ukraine to protect some regions who want greater autonomy doesn't make much sense... these regions are not necessarily russian friendly most just oppose the new junta in Kiev and likely actually don't want to stop being a part of the Ukraine.

if Russia had sent in troops it would have been to stop the illegal overthrow of the legitimately elected government in Kiev, or to reverse it... which they clearly have not done.

So the worst you could accuse them of doing is supporting civilians in their fight against their new unelected government which seems to be using artillery and air power against them.

Currently the US is doing rather worse in equipping and training a force that is killing its own civilian population... at the time the US ignored Saddam attacking Kurds, but when Saddam became the bad guy in 1990-1 all of a sudden gassing his own people was his biggest crime, but Kiev is part of the western old boys club now and like Saudi Arabia and Israel and Bahrain can kill its own people all it likes without criticism because those people it kills are designated terrorists now. The fact that the separatist regions in the Ukraine have not made attempts to take the whole country like the Kiev junta have seems unimportant.

IT'S HAPPENING!!! The Russians are coming! Shots fired!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/11568042/Finland-fires-warning-shots-at-foreign-submarine-near-Helsinki.html

This is BIG news atm. Sweden redux?

Kimppis wrote:IT'S HAPPENING!!! The Russians are coming! Shots fired!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/11568042/Finland-fires-warning-shots-at-foreign-submarine-near-Helsinki.html

This is BIG news atm. Sweden redux?

With the Swedish stunts in mind; Su-34s conducting a phantom bombing run against Swedish soil, hunt for a phantom submarine, etc... I wouldn't be surprised if Finland's pro-NATO politicians have taken a page from their book and haven't made news like this up, or ordered shots against an imaginary suspected sub - in order to increase public support for NATO entrance.

It's no coincidence that Sweden and Finland are the only 2 Western countries in Northern Europe that aren't part of NATO. Something needs to be done about this - so they bring in the smoke and mirrors; America has this stuff down to a fine art and they might have sent some specialists and advisors for the 'PR' campaign.

Saakashvilli did all the same things; organized provocations against Russian troops, etc... in order to drive a wedge between Russia and Georgia and paint Russia as an enemy to his people.
He had his own team of advisors and specialists; mainly Western-educated or from the West.

Really, really wouldn't surprise me to see these dirty tricks being repeated again.


Of course, it could also be a real sub. In which case - why all these incidents now? To provoke Finland and Sweden on purpose? And why are they being blown up into BIG news, in your words?

Kimppis wrote:IT'S HAPPENING!!! The Russians are coming! Shots fired!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/11568042/Finland-fires-warning-shots-at-foreign-submarine-near-Helsinki.html

This is BIG news atm. Sweden redux?

Would be hell funny if Finland would sink one of the NATO ships that are entering finish waters... i want to hear the story then.