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    Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

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    Varyag

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    Unified Small Calibers Ammunition Project

    Post  Varyag on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:10 pm

    As I am not a native speaker of the English language, I feel a preventive empathy for those who are and read this.

    Considering the basic elementary knowledges of the physics and mechanics principes applied to the "confined auto-propulsion inert projectile"  Small Caliber Weapon System, a naive idea come to my mind.

    The primar (internal) and intermediate (external) ballistics are the two main variables which govern the efficiency of the Terminal (lesionnal) ballistics. Considering the first two steps, we can put on a methodologic perspective those empirical rules :

    Velocity is mainly given by : the relation of powder to barrel length
    Inertia is mainly given by : Weight

    The spatial and temporal extension of the quoted properties can be assured by : aerodynamic shape


    • A decent barrel length will alow enough time for the speed acquisition,



    • A decent weight will assure a good inertia (temporal storage of energy), as the "temporal energy storage used in industry"




    • And a very-low drag will reduce to the optimum, the frictional surface offers by the bullet, to limit the kinetic energy destruction by the "air" gas from thermal transfer.


    If we apply this to the project of "Unified Small Calibers Ammunition Project", the limiting factor of the efficiency of USCAP is the upper limit extension of the range, it mean that if we limit the Small Calibers Weapons System (Assault Rifle, MG, DMR) to decent ranges (0 to 750m), we can "easily" define a "6mm pattern" caliber which will safely satisfy the three criteria, sin equa none ballistics conditions to achieve the "upper limit" exigences range of the USCAP Project. (750m Terminal effects)

    As I say, the prototype design and technical solution are already here, some resist to the operationnal exam, some do not  : 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6x49 Experimental, prhps 6 mm SAW..

    Only the barrel length will dispatch different prerogatives to the same ballistic, which again, assure by itself at least the two main criteria of energy retention : decent inertia (weight), very low drag design.

    Assault rifle : 17 " barrel
    MG : 23" barrel  attack
    Precision Rifle : 25 " barrel  sniper

    By the implementation of an Unified Family, all the logistics and bio-mechanics criteria will be easily improved and positively affect on  : interoperability, mutual supports, weight, ammo volume, accuracy, recoil for the price of :

    - a lower barrel life due to higher pressures and velocities.

    for a "same terminal effect  upper range limit".

    Here is my modest, naive and un-scientific contribution to the technical aspects of the "USCAP" utopia that any infantry man will pursue for his Small Calibers Weapons System.

    The decisional and prospective aspects are Politics, so money, so Benefits <==> Costs ratio, so global incidence of Small Calibers Weapons Systems in Modern Warfares (close to nothing) so, unbalanced Benefits <==> Costs ratio, so waiting for a Technlogic rupture wich will push the Benefits <==> Costs ratio to a strategic point that will destroy any financial barrier..


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    GarryB

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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:01 am

    In terms of small arms it seems the Russian military is happy with the 5.45mm calibre.

    It seems to be exploring with other calibres for longer range use like a 9mm version of the 338LM round, but there are other variables involved.

    In terms of small arms there is the compromise between performance down range and performance on target... in other words you could simply introduce a flechette round as was done with a Steyr entry in the US rifle competition... but accuracy is an issue and terminal effects was another problem.

    It doesn't matter how high velocity and flat shooting you make a round it still needs to be able to kill effectively.

    The future potential of EM guns suggests the days of conventional propellent might be numbered...


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:12 am

    Talking about the future of the 45mm caliber in other topic, I can see a future for this caliber in two forms:

    - As a launched grenade caliber, taking with the time the position of the current grenades of 40 and 43mm, in adition to the current grenades of 45mm. This is an example of this use for the caliber today:

    45mm: DP-64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DP-64 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%9F-64

    - As a high rate of fire caliber, when the aircrafts, helicopters and small armoured vehicles begin to become resistent to the 30mm caliber. This is an interesting precedent of the use of this caliber in this role (obviously it would need improvements):

    45mm: NS-45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Suranov_NS-45 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%A1-45

    It would be weapons in the mold of the modern GSh-30, maybe with multiple barrels:

    30mm: GSh-30-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-301 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A8-30-1
    30mm: GSh-30-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-30-2 ////// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A8-30-2
    30mm: GSh-30-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-6-30 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/30-%D0%BC%D0%BC_%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82_6%D0%9A30%D0%93%D0%A8

    The analysis over the 45mm must be done taking into account the Russian Armed Forces in overall terms. no only from the point of one of their branches (Army, Navy,...)

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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:41 pm

    Arnt the 12.7 and 14.5 also occupying the same space and one of them can be removed from service?
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:09 am

    Arnt the 12.7 and 14.5 also occupying the same space and one of them can be removed from service?

    Not totally... although there is not a great difference in calibre the 14.5mm calibre pretty much occupies the place a 20mm cannon occupies in the west... trading HE capacity for high velocity armour penetration performance.

    Probably the best replacement for the 14.5mm round would be a 23 x 115mm based weapon... the 14.5 x 114mm round would be very similar in size to the larger calibre round but the 23mm would add much better HE shell performance over the 14.5mm round and a APFSDS round in the larger calibre offers potential armour penetration performance comparable if not better than the smaller calibre round.

    Previously the main use of the 14.5mm HMG in the Soviet and Russian Army has been as a main armament for light APCs like the BTR-60/70/80 vehicles.

    These have been replaced in service in the BTR-80A and BTR-90 and now BTR-82 with a more powerful 30mm cannon.

    The main user of the 23 x 114mm calibre is the Soviet and Russian AF on fighters like the MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-31, and on helicopters like late model Mi-24 Hind helos.

    @Eehnie,

    The 45mm round fired by the DP-64 is a low velocity rocket propelled grenade.

    The 45mm NS-45 round is a very large, very heavy, low velocity round that would not be more effective than the current 30mm calibre weapons.

    The 45mm NS-45 round was intended as an air to air weapon for fighter aircraft to be able to kill enemy aircraft with one or two shots.


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    Artilliery rounds

    Post  obliqueweapons on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:40 am

    knew Artillery, mortar and bullet rounds.

    Big damage with smaller rounds.

    You put thermite inside the round, inside the copper as shown in attachment.

    It will melt the copper like a 4,000 pond IED bomb does.

    You can ether just melt 90% of the copper inside core before it hit's the target, or at the last second or impact.

    It will get past the best amour in the world including any Hi tec vest.

    Put a micro explosive tip behind the copper that once it hits the target, gravity makes it slam into the copper or the tip detonates it, blasting copper in all directions with explosive force and poison.

    Put this in anti jet fighter bullets and rounds 2. As the fighter travels at 2,000km/h the air speed and thermite alone will cripple a jet fighter.....No need for copper in the big bullets. Will start eating big holes in the jets disabling them and making them un-aero dynamic.

    Think of more ways to use this. Like thermite rounds that hit tanks and eat past the armour or tanks, crippling it. Once in the explosive back tip, drops in and detonates an gravity  poisonous explosive tip. It will detect drop after the impact turns it on, and will detonate and poison on the inside or explode acid melting shit / send a flame ball or so on.  

    So bullets can now punch a whole in armour as the copper bs is super hot melted, and will get past detonating the micro poison or explosive instantly after, even if the copper only wounds the enemy.

    Thermite can even be used as tank petrol bombs, but the burn the wheel off and so on, disabling it.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:14 am

    Thank you Garry, thats very helpful

    So in the evolution of calibres over time it would appear that 14.5mm might be removed and replaced by 30mm. With 12.7mm being kept as is.

    I can see the potential of the 23 x 115 your talking about, its a very useful round. I wonder if the last 6 years of urban combat in syria has influenced the decision to move on from 14.5, skip development of 23mm and go strait for 30mm

    So future ground forces calibres may look like: 

    240 mm
    203 mm
    152 mm
    125 mm
    120 mm

    057 mm
    030 mm
    012.7 mm
    009 mm
    007.62 mm
    005.45 mm
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:56 pm

    Talking about all the branches of the Russian Armed Forces, I tend to think that by 2050 it will be more like this:

    240 mm
    203 mm
    152 mm
    130 mm
    125 mm
    120 mm

    100 mm
    076 mm
    057 mm
    045 mm
    030 mm
    023 mm
    014.5 mm
    012.7 mm
    009 mm
    007.62 mm
    005.45 mm

    With 2 of the 3 bolded calibers being a little redundant but remaining still.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:30 am

    So in the evolution of calibres over time it would appear that 14.5mm might be removed and replaced by 30mm. With 12.7mm being kept as is.

    Lets be clear the 30 x 165mm high velocity round from the bmp-2/3 and anti aircraft guns might be kept or replaced.

    You could replace the 14.5mm calibre with the 30mm round which is much bigger and much more powerful with better armour penetration and better HE effect, but it is more expensive and more recoil issues for the platform.

    Replacing it with the 23 x 115mm round means more rounds carried, increase in HE power, but reduction in Armour piercing performance unless a new APFSDS round is developed. Ammo will be cheaper and much more compact and recoil will be much reduced.

    Of course for HE effect they could just go for the new 40mm Balkan grenade launcher, or the new 57mm model with very potent projectiles.

    In terms of your list, for ground forces:

    240 mm Mortar only and only reserve
    203 mm Heavy land artillery in reserve too
    152 mm Standard medium/heavy artillery calibre + improved tank calibre
    125 mm Tank calibre
    120 mm Most widespread mortar calibre for vehicles
    057 mm Grenade launcher calibre and high velocity IFV and AAG
    030 mm Cannon calibre where enemy armour is not expected
    012.7 mm Standard HMG and heavy sniper calibre
    009 mm 9x21mm pistol and SMG calibre and 9x69mm heavy sniper round for 1.5km range.
    007.62 mm would replace this with 6 x 49mm new calibre for sniper rifles and MGs.
    005.45 mm standard assault rifle and LMG calibre.

    I would add 82mm for portable light mortars and 40mm for automatic grenade launchers like the Balkan.

    For the all branches list:

    Talking about all the branches of the Russian Armed Forces, I tend to think that by 2050 it will be more like this:

    240 mm Land based mortar in reserve only.
    203 mm Heavy cruiser artillery calibre and reserve land calibre
    152 mm Destroyer artillery calibre and land standard artillery calibre and big tank calibre
    130 mm Frigate calibre
    125 mm Tank calibre
    120 mm medium widespread mortar calibre
    100 mm Corvette/frigate calibre
    076 mm Corvette calibre
    057 mm IFV and AAG and Corvette calibre but can be used on larger vessels as CIWS with guided shells.
    045 mm Grenade calibre for navy, otherwise not needed.
    030 mm CIWS and aircraft fighter weapon and some land use
    023 mm land and air use.
    014.5 mm ground and sea use
    012.7 mm ground and sea use
    009 mm small arms for pistols, SMGs, and long range sniper rifles
    007.62 mm replace with 6 x 49mm round.
    005.45 mm Assault rifle and SMG calibre.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:32 am

    Of course you would have to add 122mm and 220mm and 300mm for unguided artillery rockets... and 40mm, 93mm, 105mm, and 125mm for shoulder fired rockets of several types.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  George1 on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:39 pm

    @eehnie i made a separate thread for heavy calibers. The other we will keep it for rifles


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:38 am

    Modern fighter cannon

    Modern Western airsurfers to direct air support (CAS which) allocate an air gun as a means of defeating small-sized soft targets in those cases when the positions of ones and others are extremely close, as it is theoretically very precise and can be used without threat to its own. For example, during the second Iraq, two A-10 pilots received awards for the attack on militants, who fired upon marines behind the fence, literally on the other side of the road.

    It was for this purpose that the gun on the F-35A was pierced, and the marines begged for a cannon container - in this context, the above had to be explained ten times.

    By the way, in the current campaign, it is known at least that the English gun "Typhoon" was used for the first time.

    Until recently, until recently, the gun was firstly considered as a means of air combat - and in vain, a 30-mm single-barrel is just more to work on the ground is attractive, it is possible to offend the BMP.

    Su-35S VCS of Russia attacks militants in the Syrian desert in the east of the province of Damascus with the help of an air cannon. Under the wings it looks like the blocks with NAR are suspended.



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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:37 pm

    Guns evolve with experience.

    Experience from the conflict with Georgia led the Su-25SM3 to have its gun modified to allow a range of different rates of fire to be used.

    It was found in combat that the very high rate of fire of the gun led to too many rounds being fired at each target.

    Modifications mean lower rates of fire can be used to reduce the number of rounds fired per burst so more targets can be engaged.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:29 am

    The Ka-52 (onboard number "48 red") from the 39th helicopter regiment of the 27th Mixed Aviation Division of the 4th Air Force and Air Defense Army of Russia (Dzhankoy airfield, Crimea) damaged the fuselage itself with a projectile when firing from its own 30-mm gun , The incident took place in 2016. It is alleged that this incident is not the first.



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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:50 am

    The cannon on the Kamov can elevate and also turn a little.

    The computers control the aim of the gun so I guess the problem is that the pilot turned the aircraft while a gun burst was being fired at a target in front of the aircraft... the angle of the gun allowing contact with the aircraft... just as well there are arming safeties on the rounds to prevent them from exploding before travelling a distance from the muzzle.

    A cross section of the projectile shows the fuse mechanism fills most the tip of the round and has an arming delay mechanism to prevent the round exploding near the cannon as it is fired... for example in this case hitting the airframe of the helo the gun is mounted on, but also in case it hits something very close to the weapon just after the round is fired.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:50 am

    George1 wrote:@eehnie i made a separate thread for heavy calibers. The other we will keep it for rifles

    thumbsup
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:03 am

    I agree that for Afv that 30 mm and 57mm will be kept 23mm will be phased out but as long as other countries use it it will be produced. 160mm, 180mm and 240mm are in Syria but haven't heard of any use of them unless anyone else has info on syrian army use???. Not sure if Russia has been providing ammo for them or not.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:57 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:I agree that for Afv that 30 mm and 57mm will be kept 23mm will be phased out but as long as other countries use it it will be produced. 160mm, 180mm and 240mm are in Syria but haven't heard of any use of them unless anyone else has info on syrian army use???. Not sure if Russia has been providing ammo for them or not.  

    There are reports of 2016 and 2017 about the 240mm 2S4 in active service in Russia.

    The 160mm and 180mm calibers are out.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:27 pm

    I know that 160mm and 180mm but I never said they were still in production I asked if anyone had reports on Syrian art using them as they have them in stock. And I wouldn't be surprised if Russia still had ammo in a warehouse somewhere Georgia still produces 160mm mortar rounds.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:23 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:I know that 160mm and 180mm but I never said they were still in production I asked if anyone had reports on Syrian art using them as they have them in stock. And I wouldn't be surprised if Russia still had ammo in a warehouse somewhere Georgia still produces 160mm mortar rounds.

    In Syria weapons of both calibers seem to be present. In the case of the 180mm S23 it would be around 10 units, in the case of the 160mm M-160 and M-43 maybe over 200, in both cases without quit the loses of the war. Not easy to find reports, but there is something. As example The Military Balance count them and I remember something else. If there are not stocks it is possible that ammunition for both calibers be produced also in Syria.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:45 pm

    I remember seeing a picture on one of al mascara article where syrian army were pictured using 160mm mortar there was about 8 of them in row.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:55 am

    152-mm cannon 2A89

    At the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" JSC "Plant No. 9" (Ekaterinburg, the former special production of Uralmash) demonstrated the model of 152-mm gun 2A89. Presumably, the 2A89 gun was intended for a prospective self-propelled artillery unit 2C36 for the Zaurales-D missile system, developed for the Airborne Forces of Russia with the leading role of JSC Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (JSC TSNIITOCHMASH). In 2016 it was reported that the ROC "Zauralets-D" was suspended in favor of the RK "Lotus" creating a self-propelled artillery gun in a caliber of 120 mm.



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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  T-47 on Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:46 pm

    They should offer a naval version of this gun.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:54 am

    It is a medium pressure gun mortar type weapon... as a comparison the 152mm gun of the Coalition would be rather more powerful and vastly longer ranged... this is more of a larger calibre gun/mortar as fitted to the NONA and VENA, which was a 120mm calibre weapon.

    It would have nothing like the range or power of the 152mm artillery gun in Coalition or the new tank gun of the Armata tank vehicle.

    It would in fact be a larger calibre gun mortar round firing gun for heavier mortar carriers like NONA and VENA.

    Based on mortar shell weights the 120mm gun/mortar fires 16kg HE shells and mortar bombs as well as guided missles.

    This new 152mm weapon probably fires rounds similar in size to the 160mm gun/mortar... ie 40kg HE mortar bombs.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:38 am

    George1 wrote:152-mm cannon 2A89

    At the International Military Technical Forum "Army-2017" JSC "Plant No. 9" (Ekaterinburg, the former special production of Uralmash) demonstrated the model of 152-mm gun 2A89. Presumably, the 2A89 gun was intended for a prospective self-propelled artillery unit 2C36 for the Zaurales-D missile system, developed for the Airborne Forces of Russia with the leading role of JSC Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (JSC TSNIITOCHMASH). In 2016 it was reported that the ROC "Zauralets-D" was suspended in favor of the RK "Lotus" creating a self-propelled artillery gun in a caliber of 120 mm.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2802076.html

    A very interesting and expected weapon that likely will have a very important use in the future.

    We can see in the new how this weapon has been proved on the BMD-4M platfom, and has been rejected very likely because of being too heavy for the BMD-4M platform. Well, it is safe to think that also will be proved in the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms, and very likely will succeed on them. It means the basic self propelled mortars on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms will be have very likely this new 2A89 weapon of 152mm instead of the also recent 2A80 weapon of 120mm. And also, it means the use of the 120mm mortars on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms will take the form of 2B11 mortars (or successor) carried inside infantry vehicles of these platforms (not mounted in the hull). The smaller size of the BMD-4M platform makes easier the use of the 120mm mortar mounted in the hull as 2A80 weapon.

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