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    Soviet era AA guns/AT guns/Artillery pieces. Uses??

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    d_taddei2

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    Soviet era AA guns/AT guns/Artillery pieces. Uses??

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:16 am

    Hi all,

    With the Soviet Union producing many various types of Anti aircraft guns, Anti tank guns, and Artillery pieces, with many still in service around the world and in storage, and in various calibres some even no longer really used.  My question is are they of any use or should they be scrapped or could they be upgraded. Below is a list of just few that i would like to focus on mostly because these are still in service with some countries and many are still in storage, some are even being used in conflicts today (syrian civil war)


    ---------Artillery and Mortars-------


    180 mm gun S-23       being used in the Syrian conflict, still used by Eygpt and India (100 in service) to name a few countries.
    160mm Mortar M1943  still in current service with Syria, Eygpt, Vietnam, Georgia (was still being produced intil 2011).


    --------Anti-Tank guns----------


    ZiS-2    57mm           still in limited use.
    SPG-9   73mm           still in use by many countries newer rounds produced to help penetrate ERA.
    B-10     82mm           still in use with some forces being used in Syrian conflict.
    B-11     107mm         still in use with some forces being used in Syrian conflict.
    D-44     85mm          still in use with some forces being used in Syrian  conflict. last upgrades early 1980's
    M1944 (BS-3) 100mm Still in use with some forces, still in use on Kuril islands, used as anti-ship and anti-landing guns.
    T-12   100mm           still in use with many forces including Russia (468 in service), mostly used as artillery now, being used in Ukraine conflict.


    ----------anti aircraft guns--------


    ZPU-1/2/4      14.5mm          Still in use by many countries, calibre still in current production, mostly used for ground support,
    M1939 (61-K)  37mm            still in use by many countries,
    AZP S-60        57mm            still in use by many countries, calibre still in current production, have been used in ground support,
    M1939 (52-K)   85mm           mostly in reserve,
    KS-30             130mm          mostly in resrve,
    KS-19             100mm          has also been used in ground support role, Recently Iran has built an upgraded automatic version of KS-19 named Sa'ir,
    http://www.armyrecognition.com/iran_iranian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/sa_eer_saeer_ks-19_automatic_100mm_anti-aircraft_gun_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures.html


    I personally think that majority of the equipment in Russian reserves/service should be replaced the equipment either sold of cheaply or scrapped. Although some could be upgraded and be used, or used by reservists, or even sold in upgraded form.

    The S-23 and 160mm mortar don't really have much use especially that Russia has 2S7 Pion and Tulpan in service.

    As for anti-tanks the only ones of real use is the SPG-9 and T-12 100mm, but these really should be with reserve forces now. The rest of the anti-tanks should be scrapped or sold if anyone would actually want them.

    The anti-aircraft guns still have some use.
    ZPU-1 could be mounted on light vehicles like GAZ trucks or Tigr-m and used in ground support role
    ZPU-2 could be mounted on trucks or towed and used in ground support role.
    ZPU-4 has no real used anymore. sell/scrap or (see below*)
    M1939 (61-K)  37mm, has no real use, calibre no longer really used(30mm now). Sell/scrap or (see below*).
    AZP S-60        57mm, has no real use, calibre is still currently produced. Sell/scrap or (see below*).
    M1939 (52-K)   85mm . has no real use, calibre obsolete. Sell/scrap.
    KS-30             130mm, has no real use, calibre obsolete. Sell/scrap.
    KS-19             100mm , has no real use, calibre no longer really used. Sell/scrap or (see below*).

    * the other use for these would be to develope some along the same lines as what Iran did with the KS-19 and upgrade them, (see link above for more info). But suspect that this would be too much of gamble to invest money into something like this when theres a good chance nobody might want then once upgraded.

    It would be great to hear other peoples views on this as it pretty surprising as to the quantity of this equipment still in storage/reserve in Russian warehouses. And this isn't even touching on the vehicles, aircraft or other artillery that are currently in storage/reserve. Russia really needs to start to shift this stuff before they do really become totally obsolete i guess some have already, it better to make some money on this stuff rather than getting scrap value for it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet era AA guns/AT guns/Artillery pieces. Uses??

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:15 am

    180 mm gun S-23 being used in the Syrian conflict, still used by Eygpt and India (100 in service) to name a few countries.
    160mm Mortar M1943 still in current service with Syria, Eygpt, Vietnam, Georgia (was still being produced intil 2011).

    With artillery range is king and the 180mm gun has excellent range... even today.

    In addition to range is hitting power and the 40kg mortar bombs of the 160mm mortars really hit hard and as far as I know they are still used in mountain units in the Russian forces... they hit with the power of a light aerial bomb.

    Regarding anti tank guns and recoilless rifles... cheap guided systems like Metis-M1 make them largely obsolete, but if you already had some they would be better than nothing.

    the Soviets used recoilless rifles in the mountains of Afghanistan as they had better reach than small arms fire and when you can see a group of enemy 3km away your MG fire is not so effective but a 73mm calibre HE round will get their attention...


    I personally think that majority of the equipment in Russian reserves/service should be replaced the equipment either sold of cheaply or scrapped. Although some could be upgraded and be used, or used by reservists, or even sold in upgraded form.

    Most of the anti aircraft guns are potent anti personnel weapons and would have an effect on enemy ground vehicles and navy vessels as well as aircraft, but I agree most of it is not worth keeping... giving it a slight upgrade and selling or donating it to allies that will find it useful would make sense.

    the main problem is that the cheapest thing to do with this stuff is often nothing.

    In addition to each weapon there will be a store of parts and ammunition otherwise it is useless.

    Some of the ammo is still in use but a lot of it is out of production so gifting it to an ally often means setting them up with ammo production capacity... which can earn money too.

    Not every ally wants old hand me downs, while others might already have some in stock so more is useful and upgrades useful too.

    I rather suspect with the sale of equipment to Burma and leases of Su-24s to Argentina that old stock is being used up...


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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:40 pm

    hey thanks garry for the input,
    I agree that the S-23 and 160mm mortar has good range and hitting power, i just didnt see the point in keeping them when Russian forces have the 2S7 and Tulpan, the 160mm mortar would still need to be towed by a capable vehicle in mountainous areas to which a Tulpan being tracked would be more suited.

    The anti-tank guns i think have had their day, the SPG-9 mounted on a 4x4 pick up or truck could still be useful for a quick shoot and scoot attack, and like you said theirs cheap ATGW on the market now and older stocks of AT-4 and AT-5 could be sold, hell even AT-3 would be even cheaper and would be better than anti tank guns, i remember reading that the unit can be produced for less $1,000 (and thats not a typo lol)

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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet era AA guns/AT guns/Artillery pieces. Uses??

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:14 am

    I agree that the S-23 and 160mm mortar has good range and hitting power, i just didnt see the point in keeping them when Russian forces have the 2S7 and Tulpan, the 160mm mortar would still need to be towed by a capable vehicle in mountainous areas to which a Tulpan being tracked would be more suited.

    Well they really are spoiled for choice and can be selective about what they want to keep using and what they want to keep in storage.

    They have developed a GLONASS based electronic fuse with steering fins for ammunition of greater calibre than 152mm ammo, which means obsolete weapons like 160mm mortars and 180mm big guns can become very effective with guided shells they become very powerful systems.

    The large calibre means lower rate of fire, but the precision accuracy means fewer rounds will be needed, but certain heavy structures can withstand multiple hits from lighter calibres and the only solution is a much heavier projectile.

    For instance in Afghanistan a pile of rocks in front of a cave will generally stop small arms fire even including HMG fire but 30mm grenade launcher rounds can blow those rocks away and enter the cave.

    Larger rocks and even RPG fire wont be as effective, but a direct fire large calibre round... especially with a delayed fuse so it detonates inside the wall and you have a very effective round that will use the mass of the wall and shrapnel against the occupants.

    As I mentioned previously recoilless rifles are useful for extended range engagements that are relatively cheap. In many countries they are used with HE rounds in mountainous country to set off avalanches to make areas safe for skiing. In Afghanistan the Soviets used them to pick off groups of enemy at extended ranges... the direct fire recoilless rifles much more accurate than mortars out to fairly long range with the rounds being much cheaper than ATGMs of the time... compared with Javelin even an SPG-9 has better range and you could buy 10,000 rounds for the cost of one Javelin missile and launcher... and one javelin missile is not more effective than 10,000 projectiles.

    The anti-tank guns i think have had their day, the SPG-9 mounted on a 4x4 pick up or truck could still be useful for a quick shoot and scoot attack, and like you said theirs cheap ATGW on the market now and older stocks of AT-4 and AT-5 could be sold, hell even AT-3 would be even cheaper and would be better than anti tank guns, i remember reading that the unit can be produced for less $1,000 (and thats not a typo lol)

    The missile for the Kornet EM is not that expensive as it only has a rear looking laser sensor, yet it can kill tanks at 8.5km and UAVs at 10km or point ground targets... Few anti tank guns could match that performance for any price.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:15 pm

    Hi garry, do you have a price for the Kornet EM missle?

    the cost of some western ATGW missles is pretty scary, when considered with Russian ATGW missles. I agree SPG-9 cheap ammo does give it some use , and lik ei said shoot and scoot method would be ideal, and against buildings and bunkers, but as for the rest they could be scrapped, theirs just too many different calibres to keep it viable.

    the guided shells you mention would be ideal for Tulpan and 2S7 Pion, as these are self propelled and the S-23 and 160mm mortar need to be towed, so these could be scrapped as Tulpan and Pion are better and self propelled.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet era AA guns/AT guns/Artillery pieces. Uses??

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:41 am

    Unfortunately I don't have a price for Kornet missiles... old or new, but they are designed so all the complex expensive stuff like thermal sights and computer bits are in the guidance system in the launcher, so the missile itself can be simple and cheap.

    I agree SPG-9 cheap ammo does give it some use , and lik ei said shoot and scoot method would be ideal, and against buildings and bunkers, but as for the rest they could be scrapped, theirs just too many different calibres to keep it viable.

    The main problem with a recoilless rifle is its length... but as I keep harping on, in Afghanistan they were used in remote outposts on the tops of small hills where soldiers would live for months isolated.

    Perched up on a hill you could see for miles, but as I said an enemy group might form up 5km away and approach your position from several directions... small arms fire is only effective at fairly short distances yet in that barren landscape you could see them long before you could start hurting them.

    With the RR you can start hitting them at extended ranges and could have hundreds of rounds in the small base because the ammo is so cheap... in fact i have also heard of them actually being used the same way civilians use them to clear avalanches except they are used in war to bring an avalanche down upon an enemy... they work at all sorts of altitudes unlike ATGMs.

    It wouldnt take much to develop a nose mounted fuse with flight control fins designed to seek a laser target mark so that 1 in every 200 rounds you fire is guided for an anti armour hit on a point target that is a serious threat... even if it is an enemy team with an ATGM... your recoilless rifle rounds move rather fast...

    the guided shells you mention would be ideal for Tulpan and 2S7 Pion, as these are self propelled and the S-23 and 160mm mortar need to be towed, so these could be scrapped as Tulpan and Pion are better and self propelled.

    I agree... though the 160mm mortars I would keep for mountain warfare units, te 180mm guns I would withdraw and put 240mm mortars and 203mm heavy guns in reserve with a small stash of guided rounds ready to use when needed... and just focus on 152mm guns as standard artillery and replace the 122mm guns with 120mm hybrid gun/mortars and of course the 125mm smoothbores for tanks.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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