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    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

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    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:17 am

    It seems initially KM-SAM used PESA and now Samsung/Thales co-operation uses AESA Radar.

    http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6130/radary.jpg
    http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4731/samsungthales.jpg

    Vityaz is most certainly PESA atleast on the pictures they showed , And the two planer antenna is I would suspect one for IFF and one for Height Finding.

    I would suspect the need to mass produce Vityaz and a cost effective replacement for S-300P/PT would have made the decison go PESA way , Considering it already has ARH it better than S-300 missile and the PESA would also be of an advanced type.


    SOC , How difficult it is to jam an AESA verus PESA radar using modern jammer , the thing I am aware of AESA is higher bandwidth and graceful degradation under jamming conditions , plus lower power needs.
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    SOC

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    Differences of AESA to PESA

    Post  SOC on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:39 am


    That's the image I was talking about mentioning it as an AESA.

    Austin wrote:Vityaz is most certainly PESA atleast on the pictures they showed , And the two planer antenna is I would suspect one for IFF and one for Height Finding.

    You usually don't need a separate height finder, those are typically reserved for EW functions to augment 2D surveillance radars (height being the missing D). You'd find subarrays on a PESA like this for things like sidelobe reduction, IFF functions, precision missile tracking, missile uplinks, etc.

    Austin wrote:I would suspect the need to mass produce Vityaz and a cost effective replacement for S-300P/PT would have made the decison go PESA way ,

    It's cheaper than an AESA, and they've proven they've got this technology mastered, so there's no reason to make it more complicated than mission requirements dictate.

    Austin wrote:Considering it already has ARH it better than S-300 missile and the PESA would also be of an advanced type.

    I'm not sure I'd say it's a completely "better" missile without all of the updated specifications, and ARH vs. SAGG is something we could debate at length.

    Austin wrote:SOC , How difficult it is to jam an AESA verus PESA radar using modern jammer , the thing I am aware of AESA is higher bandwidth and graceful degradation under jamming conditions , plus lower power needs.

    DRFM is always going to be a pain in the ass, at least in theory...unless you're doing fun things like messing about with your polarization, frequency hopping, etc. Lower power, however, isn't always a positive development. The original radar for the MiG-25P was very high power (could reportedly kill deer when activated on the ground), and that brute force enabled it to burn right through a lot of the jamming interference used at the time. Things are obviously different now, but in some cases more power is not a bad thing to have around. I'll give this some more thought in the morning and figure out what I can put here.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:15 am

    SOC wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:A few points:

    - The existence of feedhorns for a space-fed array is indicative of the fact that the radar shown for this variant of Vityaz' is not an AESA (AFAR, АФАР), but it is not an indication that this radar is a PESA;  not all ESAs are either AESAs or PESAs.

    ?  AESA or PESA is basically referring to whether or not the T/R modules in the array face are either generating (AESA) or receiving from somewhere else (PESA) RF energy to transmit.  What sort of ESA wouldn't fall under one of those two categories?

    I gave an example in my earlier post on Irbis-Eh. To illustrate further, I will now elaborate a little bit on that earlier post.

    In a normal PESA, each antenna element has "only" a phase shift functionality. The reason for making a reference here to a "normal PESA" is that here I can't talk, in any detail, about ESAs like TTD-PESAs, for example.

    Irbis-Eh is semiactive (neither passive nor active) in transmit. It means that each antenna element of Irbis-Eh has, in addition to its phase shift functionality, a digitally gain-controlled amplification functionality. This capability provides for an optimized spatial gain profile to be generated by the array. This gain profile is a function of position on the plane of the array. In short, this means that the outcome of Irbis-Eh's TWT amplifier (with two ganged TWTs, by the way) feeding this kind of array would be indistinguishable from that of an AESA, i.e. same mainlobe, sidelobe and backlobe performance.

    As to the receive characteristics, Irbis-Eh is active on receive; that means it is identical to an AESA on receive.

    The Irbis-Eh case is just one example. There are many other kinds of ESAs, and most provide more capability than a run of-the-mill AESA. Some are more sophisticated variants of AESAs. Maybe I will have have some posts about them in the future.

    SOC wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The apparent existence of a lower subarray (subarrays) can be an indication that the radar is actually a PESA, if that subarray was, for example, for purposes like generating nulls in the antenna pattern. The upper array is probably an L-band array which has IFF as one of its roles.

    It looks like there are possibly two subarrays above the main array face, stacked one atop the other.  To get a better impression of what's going on we need an image showing the back of the array face.

    I will address those maybe in some later post. The lacunae were deliberate, but I should have said "the array just to the top is probably ..."

    SOC wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:- The KM-SAM radar is a space-fed PESA.

    I've seen it mentioned in advertising materials as a "plain array active phase radar", possibly implying AESA.  However, the rotating antenna cabin does seem large enough to house a space-feed system behind the antenna, so who knows.

    Irrespective of the advertising material, it should probably be a space-fed PESA. Maybe the "developer" wasn't familiar with the design.

    Some telltale signs for my assertion are the shape of the antenna enclosure and also the four nulling subarrays. Universally these signs are not categorical, but in this situation they most probably are.

    Aside from that please see the internals of the antenna at the following links. The feed of similar design to that of the 30N6Eh type is visible, which indicates that the design is not an AESA.

    http://kjfaero.com/pr/pr04-03.htm
    http://kjfaero.com/pr/new/075.htm
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    George1

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    Vityaz SAM system: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:21 am

    Russia has for the first time demonstrated the short-to-mid-range air defense platform ‘Vityaz,’ which will replace older variants of the S-300 system due to be scrapped soon. The army will begin testing the new hardware later this year.

    The new surface-to-air missile system is made by Russian weapons manufacturer Almaz-Antey. The company demonstrated the system at the Obukhov State Plant in St. Petersburg, home to its branch that manufactures the Vityaz launchers.

    The system boasts advanced all-aspect phased array radar, a new mobile command post and a launcher carrying 12 vertical-launch missiles, which will use a variant of the 9M96 active radar homing missile. Similar missiles are used by the S-400, the newer generation of the S-300, which is currently being deployed in Russia.

    Vityaz launchers can also fire a short-range missile that was not officially identified, but is likely a variant of the 9M100.

    “I believe the system will be able to engage target within ranges from 30km to 120km,” Said Aminov, military analyst and editor of the World of Air Defense website told RT. “It’s a system of object air defense with some element of tactical antimissile defense.”

    Almaz-Antey aims to hand over the system to the Russian Defense Ministry for testing before the year’s end, company head Vladislav Menshikov told Russian President Vladimir Putin, who was inspecting the plant.

    The company partially based the design of the Vityaz on its work with the South Korean KM-SAM Chun Koong system. Almaz-Antey designed three radar units for the KM-SAM, and is rumored to have also helped design the system’s missiles.

    The Russian military officially backed the Vityaz project – which has better capabilities than the Korean air defense system – after studying its performance, Almaz-Antey said in 2010. The new Russian system has been in the works since 2007, and is expected to be completed in record time.

    The ministry earlier said it plans to buy at least 30 Vityaz systems before 2020, if it passes testing, and deployment of the platforms could start as early as next year.

    Vityaz was designed as a replacement for the S-300PS, an older variant of the S-300 air defense system developed in the early 1980s. The Russian army is expected to decommission about 50 of the S-300PS by 2015 due to old age.

    The name of the system comes from an archaic Slavic word for a noble warrior. It is shared by the famous aerobatic team known as the Russkie Vityazi (‘Russian Knights’).

    Russia plans to deploy the Vityaz system alongside other advanced air defense weapons, including the service-ready S-400 and Pantsir-S1, and the future long-range S-500 and short-range Morfei. Moscow aims to create a multi-layered grid to cover Russia’s airspace, defending against threats ranging from drones, to conventional manned aircraft, to cruise and ballistic missiles.













    http://rt.com/news/vityaz-air-defense-russia-984/


    Last edited by George1 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:44 pm

    Great. Its good to see the Russian MIC churning up radically new equipment at last. Lets hope the Russian army gets a tracked version soon.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:40 pm

    This is the answer we have been needing.  S-300/400 is good at high altitude long range targets, but worthless against low flying cruise missiles or tree hugging aircraft.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:17 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:This is the answer we have been needing.  S-300/400 is good at high altitude long range targets, but worthless against low flying cruise missiles or tree hugging aircraft.  

    Well no SAM is great against low flying targets because Earth itself hides it. Thats why you have 20m and 40m mast that carry specialized search radar system and

    as well as shooting radar system along with S-300 batteries and regiments.

    Around fixed sites you have things like this:


     
       
    and MIG-31 with R-33/37 above Very Happy . Still S-300 proved itself to be perfectly capably of shooting low flying ground hugging targets while defending area.

    Even Vityaz with active radar guidance will need to have 40m mast integrated within its batteries and regiments to know where to look, calculate and shoot but
    because of it, it will be able to shoot down cruise missiles more effectively.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:49 am

    Hope you don't mind, I have moved this thread to a more appropriate location.

    Vityaz is an Air Force/Air Defence system first and foremost and in the Morfei/Pantsir-S1/Vityaz/S-400/S-500 structure is likely to be shared with the Air Force and the Navy and the Aerospace Defence Forces.

    The Army will likely go with a slightly different mix that is all on tracked or armoured wheeled vehicles and will likely include but not be limited to Igla-S+Verba (MANPADS)/Morfei+Baikanuk(SOSNA-R)+Pantsir-S1 & TOR-M3 in a tracked Tunguska+TOR form and also perhaps wheeled forms for use with wheeled brigades(Short range)/BUK-M3 (Medium range)/S-300V4 and later models(Long range)/S-500 (ABM).

    Bit of a mess but when used together very capable.

    SOSNA-R is like naval Palma and is the light cheap option for gun/missile defence and will likely replace SA-13/SA-9.


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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:37 am

    Viktor wrote:

    Well no SAM is great against low flying targets because Earth itself hides it. Thats why you have 20m and 40m mast that carry specialized search radar system and

    as well as shooting radar system along with S-300 batteries and regiments.

    Around fixed sites you have things like this:
       
    and MIG-31 with R-33/37 above Very Happy . Still S-300 proved itself to be perfectly capably of shooting low flying ground hugging targets while defending area.

    Even Vityaz with active radar guidance will need to have 40m mast integrated within its batteries and regiments to know where to look, calculate and shoot but
    because of it, it will be able to shoot down cruise missiles more effectively.

    Yeah, but acquisition radars do not guide the missile to the target. Engagement radars do that and they are not mounted on a 40m mast.

    S-300 proved itself incapable of shooting tree hugging targets because the engagement radar doesn't have the declination, that is why Panstyr was ordered.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:09 am

    TR1 is right. Russians raise everything to the masts from the acquisition to engagement radar.


     
       
    Besides one of the project requirements specially for Almaz S-300 was shooting down cruise missiles besides fighters on all altitudes and I dont see Russian army being unhappy with it.

    Even with the standard Crocodile radar up and running, missile battery will have enough time to prepare to the incoming threat loosing no time in the process.
    Data from any radar that sees the threat will be send to command post from which information/calculations will be passed on the the battery selected to its destruction.

    Than there are A-50 and whole lot a PVO fighters and interceptors that will deal with the threats of low flying objects.

    In the future with the introduction of ZOND-1 AWACS UAV, information about the the low flying missiles or fighters will be transmitted to the nearest command post and nearest SAM from with missiles with active guidance will be fired achieving greater ranges in comparison with todays. But yea, I would agree with you that low flying winged missiles are the most trickiest targets to intercept.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:46 am

    Viktor wrote:TR1 is right. Russians raise everything to the masts from the acquisition to engagement radar.

    That is incorrect, the 30N6 mast pictured there is not for mobile TEL but city defence.  This is what exists...



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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:52 am



    Last edited by TR1 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:53 am

    The engagement of low flying cruise missiles has been proven on *many* exercises. The difference is they can't be engaged at long ranges but much closer (15-30km).
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:04 pm

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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  SOC on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:05 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:TR1 is right. Russians raise everything to the masts from the acquisition to engagement radar.

    That is incorrect, the 30N6 mast pictured there is not for mobile TEL but city defence.  This is what exists...


    The 40V6 mast series is used to enhance low-altitude coverage by lifting the battery-level radar systems above the terrain coverage. The much larger elevating platforms are used primarily for the 64N6 radars. They've also lifted 96L6 radars up on the 40V6MR masts with the Moscow S-400 sites. The mobile 5N63S/30N6 radars are still elevated, just like the 96L6: they remove the radar container from the chassis and sit it atop the mast. The disadvantage is that it takes 60-90 minutes to erect the masts depending on the height used, but it's worth the tradeoff around Moscow as it gets the radars a clear field of view. This whole concept came about as an alternative to taking a bunch of time to clear the forests enough to give the required field of view.
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:24 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Viktor wrote:TR1 is right. Russians raise everything to the masts from the acquisition to engagement radar.

    That is incorrect, the 30N6 mast pictured there is not for mobile TEL but city defence.  This is what exists...


    The 40V6 mast series is used to enhance low-altitude coverage by lifting the battery-level radar systems above the terrain coverage.  The much larger elevating platforms are used primarily for the 64N6 radars.  They've also lifted 96L6 radars up on the 40V6MR masts with the Moscow S-400 sites.  The mobile 5N63S/30N6 radars are still elevated, just like the 96L6:  they remove the radar container from the chassis and sit it atop the mast.  The disadvantage is that it takes 60-90 minutes to erect the masts depending on the height used, but it's worth the tradeoff around Moscow as it gets the radars a clear field of view.  This whole concept came about as an alternative to taking a bunch of time to clear the forests enough to give the required field of view.

    The Greens strike again.



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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  SOC on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:58 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    The Greens strike again.

    Nah, it was about the time and money they'd have to spend clearing everything out. Coming up with the mast system meant that they could avoid all of that, and also get things in place a lot quicker. There was a concern that the roadways were going to be crushed by the heavy as hell 40V6 being towed around, but it ended up not being a problem. I think there might have been some reinforcing work done but it was still a whole lot cheaper and less time consuming than clearing out the trees.
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    Cyberspec

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    This is the answer we have been needing. (S-350)

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:52 am

    Cyberspec wrote:The engagement of low flying cruise missiles has been proven on *many* exercises. The difference is they can't be engaged at long ranges but much closer (15-30km).

    I found the following regarding low altitude targets in some old notes I saved. It's from a test of the S-300PMU-2 before acceptance by the PLA in 2008

    Experiment number 3


    Target type: Low flying target

    Objective: to test effectiveness of system in conditions of strong surface clutter against a low flying target.

    The target was detected at a distance of 14.6 km and hit at a distance of 4.6km (2 missiles were fired)

    Pics and charts included
    Source: http://www.vko.ru/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=320&ItemID=280&mid=2891&wversion=Staging

    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:51 pm

    that factory looks like  custom private business joe s workshop in bakersfield california, not a trace of streamlined mass production ,robots and lots of assembly workers , and high productivity...lol
    pretty slow unefficient rudimentary production there.
    this vitazz is disappointing on so many levels cry No 
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:37 am

    Rpg type 7v wrote:that factory looks like  custom private business joe s workshop in bakersfield california, not a trace of streamlined mass production ,robots and lots of assembly workers , and high productivity...lol
    pretty slow unefficient rudimentary production there.
    this vitazz is disappointing on so many levels cry No 

    What are you basing this off of? The pics is the assembly plant, as Almaz Antey has multiple plants. As well, the company is quite effective since it is one of the largest companies in the world (25 in defence industry) and that is impressive for a company that deals with specialization of specific equipment.

    I really did not know how you came to that conclusion from the photos provided. As well, Vityaz system is an improvement of the KM-SAM that they assisted S.Korea with in development. I would say that it is probably more capable system than you may think it is.

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:15 pm

    except km-sam is already operational and in mass production...
    while viutaz is not even in testing...it lags allot.
    there is a reason new assembly buildings for A-A are under construction.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:02 am

    The Vitjaz project was only approved after the development of KM-SAM was finished and assesed.

    The company partially based the design of the Vityaz on its work with the South Korean KM-SAM Chun Koong system. Almaz-Antey designed three radar units for the KM-SAM, and is rumored to have also helped design the system’s missiles.

    The Russian military officially backed the Vityaz project – which has better capabilities than the Korean air defense system – after studying its performance, Almaz-Antey said in 2010. The new Russian system has been in the works since 2007, and is expected to be completed in record time.

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/russia_demonstrated_the_new_short-to-medium_range_air_defense_missile_platform_50r6a_vityaz_0207131.html

    Russian input into Samsung's development

    The first development provides a broader explanation for Samsung’s innovation capacity. In the late 1990s they were able to tap into a source of cheap scientific expertise in the former Soviet Union.

    Samsung has nurtured a close relationship with the Russian Academy of Science since then. There is a framework agreement between the two parties. And the Korean Government has its own agreement under which it funds Korean small businesses to develop projects on the back of Academy research. Samsung meanwhile appears to help the Academy to increase its patent count and to exploit its inventions.

    ...

    Has the Russian connection shown concrete value for Samsung?

    Right now Samsung is working on 3D projection and display with the Academy. In 2009 BusinessWeek reported that Samsung relied on its relationships with Russian experts for its smartphone software development, adding:

       Russian brains helped Samsung develop the image-processing chips in its digital TVs and refine its frequency-filtering technology that significantly reduced noise on its now-ubiquitous handsets.

    ...

    But a second effect of the relationship with Russian science was the introduction of TRIZ, an innovation method that Samsung adopted from 2000 onwards but which only reached American companies from the mid-2000s onwards (Intel is a user).

    TRIZ is a methodology for systematic problem solving. Typical of its origins in Russia, it asks users to seek the contradictions in current technological conditions and customer needs and to imagine an ideal state that innovation should drive towards.


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/haydnshaughnessy/2013/03/07/why-is-samsung-such-an-innovative-company/



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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:32 pm

    except km-sam is already operational and in mass production...
    while viutaz is not even in testing...it lags allot.
    there is a reason new assembly buildings for A-A are under construction.

    No big surprise that KM-SAM is in production and operational... the UAE got Pantsir-S1 first too... for the same reason... they paid for it.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:20 pm

    Vityaz is a powerful and much needed substitute for older versions of S-300. Its configuration in its current form is familiar for Russians and will allow faster implementation of the project and cheaper production. 38 batteries are to be acquired by 2020.  Thats a lot and I suspect that by the end of 2020 we will see another modernization of the project. I have feeling that as with all the other Russian projects, Vityaz too had many different concepts during its development and no matter the reasons unknown to us, Russian Generals opted for this one. In comparison with older S-300 system, Vityaz has:

    - Longer range missiles
    - 3 times more missiles
    - Different types of missiles
    - More guidance channels
    - Tactical and strategic mobility (Il-476/76)
    - 360° coverage
    - Deployment time is obviously not larger than 5 min
    - better low level coverage
    - ability to shoot down tactical ballistic targets
    - missiles (arguably by some Russians forum members, 9M96 missiles for Vityaz are even bigger than those advertised for S-300/400 - meaning even bigger range)
    - Ability to work with all the other systems and much better ability to integrate within existing and future radar and SAM networkđ

    What remains a mystery is:

    - AESA radar which might or might not be but can easily be added later. (thing is also that for some reason Russians does not want to integrate search and
      engagement radar in one)
    - we have TEL not TELAR (but that too can be added within some future modernization or some Vityaz - PM version)


    Anyway Im more than satisfied with this current configuration as it will significantly enchant Russian PVO.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:48 pm

    The Russians have told and shown us only what they wanted us to know and see of the Vityaz system.
    Their military industry is becoming more and more domestic oriented and decreasing its dependency on exports. I have noticed that over the last few years, they are more secretive on many programs. Take CLUB for example...we have seen only export versions.
    I suspect there a lot more to Vityaz and also the S-400 than we have seen.


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