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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:09 am

    Thanks for the link Austin, though I knew most of it... it is nice to see it all together like that.

    @njb1 I haven't heard any more than what you have posted... state testing 2011...

    I have not heard if there is any competition in the trials, like from the ADS bullpup rifle that is designed to operate as a replacement for the AKS-74M, and the APS underwater rifle by using special 5.45mm underwater ammo and standard 5.45mm rounds. The ADS was in tests last year for the Naval Infantry and the VDV as a potential new standard rifle.

    Note that in the past the Naval infantry have had the specialised APS rifle that uses ammunition that looks like someone got a standard 5.45mm round and took out the standard projectile and replaced it with a knitting needle about 20cm long. The shape of the round makes it very effective under water and able to be used in a smoothbore rifle capable of full auto or single shot with a 26 round magazine. They have even developed tracer ammo for the weapon... which would be very interesting to see a video of. The problem is that while the weapon is far superior to any spear gun while under water, above water it is probably less accurate than your average pistol, so a standard assault rifle has to be carried as well.
    The new ADS is a new bullpup design base on the A90 assault rifle. It has a tube that blows empty shell cases forward so unlike some bullpups you can fire it left or right handed without any adjustments and without empty shell cases hitting you.
    The new thing about the rifle is new 5.45mm ammo that looks normal from the outside and fits into standard magazines but contains a reduced powder charge and the projectile is the length of the case with its base nearly touching the primer. This long length makes it efficient in the water and its performance is just as good as the APS underwater regarding range, accuracy, and lethality, while above water using standard 5.45mm ammo its accuracy is as good as the AKS-74M standard rifle, if not better.

    With that sort of competition Kalashnikov will need to have something to give his rifle an edge in trials. I think a balanced recoil mechanism will increase complication in production, but not so much as to make it super expensive, and the effect on performance in burst and full auto fire seems very impressive based on what I have seen of the AEK videos on youtube. In full auto bursts the hits tend to cluster like a shotgun blast rather than string upwards like a burst from a rifle. There is a reason why shotguns are used for moving targets...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:13 pm


    It will be interesting to see what Izhmash do with the stock , pistol grip and flip-up sights on the AK200. On the photos seen so far it looks like commercial US models are used - I guess the Russians will develop parts them selves for potential poduction models.

    Also the sights shown so far have been - what looks like Aimpoint & ACOG models - I wonder why no Russian optics have been shown on the weapon ?

    I guess we will have to wait over the course of the next 12 to 24 months before we see a possible production model however I wonder if a version will be shown at any of the Russian defence equipment shows in 2011.

    Its got great potential if a balanced recoil system is used.

    Any ideas as to the barrel length ? still 415mm or slightly shorter - its difficult to tell ?

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:20 pm

    Any reason why AK-103 which can fire 7.62x39mm rounds are not designed with balanced recoil mechanism , considering it can improve accuracy and reduce recoil.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:55 pm

    It will be interesting to see what Izhmash do with the stock , pistol
    grip and flip-up sights on the AK200. On the photos seen so far it looks
    like commercial US models are used - I guess the Russians will develop
    parts them selves for potential poduction models.

    It is pretty new for Russian made weapons for domestic use to have Picatinny rails so there might be a short gap, but I have seen a few Russian weapons with short Picatinny rails, like the Vityaz 9mm SMG based on the AKS-74U. It will only be a matter of time before standard Russian scopes come with Picatinny rail support... and as an added bonus this will mean better access to the western civilian and military market without the need for adaptors and able to be fitted to ARs as well as AKs and other guns of all types that have the rails.

    Also the sights shown so far have been - what looks like Aimpoint &
    ACOG models - I wonder why no Russian optics have been shown on the
    weapon ?

    The Russians have plenty of different optics models, though for the first prototype rifles they might not have had example scope ready. Of course the whole purpose of adopting rails might be to make western optics an option if needed so they might have chosen to put on western scopes intentionally.

    I suspect the Russian optics industry can match the quality and performance of the western scopes at a much more reasonable price...

    I guess we will have to wait over the course of the next 12 to 24 months
    before we see a possible production model however I wonder if a version
    will be shown at any of the Russian defence equipment shows in 2011.

    Have to keep an eye on exercises to see if it gets a test that way too.

    Its got great potential if a balanced recoil system is used.

    I agree.

    Any ideas as to the barrel length ? still 415mm or slightly shorter - its difficult to tell ?

    It is difficult to tell. I wonder if they have changed the cocking handle to the left side, and if the safety is changed at all... and which side does the folding stock fold to... just looking at the fold down Iron sights I suspect they have gone for peep hole iron sights... which I really don't like much. When I fire my SLR sometimes I get the feeling the rear sight will poke me in the eye under recoil...

    Any reason why AK-103 which can fire 7.62x39mm rounds are not designed
    with balanced recoil mechanism , considering it can improve accuracy and
    reduce recoil.

    The purpose of the AK-103 was to bring the AKM up to AKS-74M standard... just like the others in the AK-101-105 was to create a family of AKS-74M standard weapons in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62 x 39mm calibre and of course AKS-74M based carbines in the three calibres too.
    There is a similar upgrade of the RPK in the three calibres to RPK-74M standard.

    The AK-107/108 is the balanced recoil family, but I have not heard of the AK-106 which I would guess would be the balanced recoil 7.62 x 39mm weapon.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:06 am



    New sniper rifle from Tula MC-116R (on the left, on the right - OSV-96) caliber 0.338 L presently usign foreign ammunition, domestic ammo ready also. Serial production starting this year.

    (via mp.net )
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:33 am

    Hardly new... it has a new synthetic stock and it is in a new calibre (338 laupa magnum), but it is basically the MTs-116 target rifle modified into a sniper rifle with a magazine feed (MTs-116M) and the new calibre.

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/mts-116m-e.html

    Calling it a new sniper rifle would be like calling a 338 Laupa Magnum version of the SV-98 a new rifle.

    Good idea however as the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre weapons are limited to about 800m in effective range for sniping so a 338 Laupa magnum should extend that effective range to about 1,200m.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:59 am

    You would know better on that front for sure Smile
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:13 am

    Hell in that Russian sniper competition link you posted earlier, they were using .338 for some of their long range shots.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:42 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Hell in that Russian sniper competition link you posted earlier, they were using .338 for some of their long range shots.

    Simple English Please what do you mean by that Smile
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:48 pm

    I think that the Russians are maybe going to use the .338 more often for other operations outside of a contest.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:57 am

    Firstly looking at my post above I owe you an apology Austin.

    The Russians have been experimenting with a range of cartridges but they haven't previously gone in for the longer range stuff normally so this is pretty new.

    I guess I was a little disappointed that I recognised the rifle while expecting to see a brand new rifle and seeing an upgrade of an existing rifle.

    I think that the Russians are maybe going to use the .338 more often for other operations outside of a contest.

    The problem is that you have to narrow it down.

    Police snipers rarely fire on point targets at more than 300m.
    They don't fire on area targets at all.

    Russian Army snipers rarely fire on point targets at more than 600m.
    They might fire on area targets out to 1,200m but it is more harassing fire than deadly pin point fire.

    GRU Army snipers might fire on targets out to 800m but will not often use harassing fire.

    Special task snipers within other government organisations will not generally shoot at more than 800m either normally.

    12.7mm weapons used in Russia have been for use at reduced ranges (not beyond 1,000m) against enemy targets with body armour, and most other dedicated sniper ammo like the 9 x 39mm, the 12.7 x 54mm, and the 9.3 x 64mm ammo is not intended for shooting at more than 600m.

    The only shooting beyond 800m is with 12.7 x 108mm rifles for use against light vehicles or radar antenna or missiles etc.

    There was talk in the mid 1990s of adapting the SV-98 to 338 Laupa Mag, but I have not read of any progress in that area.

    Adapting the MTs-116 to this calibre is interesting because it is a calibre optimised for hitting point targets at up to 1,200m. Hitting point targets is a euphemism for shooting people.

    The Lobaev SVL is also an interesting step in that direction to longer range shooting in the .408 Chey-tac, which is a calibre optimised to be used at very long ranges... 2.2km or more.

    I can't see any of the above replacing the SVDS in infantry service, but they will likely adopt something for specialised sniper use. The SV-98 would be a good rifle, but its standard scope is unpopular, and it is considered expensive too.

    I would think foreign sniper rifles might be considered for small purchases for "teams that need the absolute best available".

    It will likely come down to cost and accuracy. The SVL is reportedly a 0.2-0.3 MOA rifle, but the fact that it is a single shot weapon and likely quite expensive will probably count against it.
    This new version of the MTs-116 is a nice step forward, with a new synthetic stock and new calibre will make it interesting as they could buy a few thousand in 338 calibre and a few thousand in 7.62 x 54mm and have the best of both worlds. A 7.62 x 54mm rifle will be effective out to 800m. A 338 laupa mag will be effective out to 1,200m and will be a gap rifle to fit between the 30 cal rifle and the 50 cal rifle. It will fit between both rifles in terms of range and weight and cost.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:22 am

    Just for clarification Austin where it says serial production starting this year... do they mean the Russian 338 calibre ammo or the rifle?

    I should also point out that Russian production 338 Laupa Mag ammo might need to be taken with a grain of salt, as Russian 9 x 19mm ammo is not the same as western 9mm ammo as it is generally loaded to a quite potent pressure equivelent to NATO 9mm ++ rounds used in SMGs only. This Russian 338 Laupa Mag ammo might also be slightly different and intended for Russian weapons specifically.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:38 am

    GarryB wrote:Just for clarification Austin where it says serial production starting this year... do they mean the Russian 338 calibre ammo or the rifle?

    Garry ,I found the pictures on MP.net and posted it along with the caption , not sure what the source was since the original source or link is not present.

    I presume the person who posted it got it from a Russian page and just translated the caption.

    No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:00 am

    No apologies required ,we are just here to learn and share .....Although I learn much more then I share

    The apology was totally necessary, you posted a photo... contributing as usual, and my reply sounded like I was a grumpy school master correcting a student.

    It is a shame we don't know the source of the photo.

    It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

    Was it a shooting event? A test?

    The two calibres suggest it was a long range shoot.

    Was it a government department or police or armed forces?

    If this is for GRU snipers or VDV snipers it could suggest a test between a 12.7mm and a 338 LM rifle... they are clearly extending their targeting range. The range you would be using either rifle would be 1,000m plus which might explain the presence of each rifle as despite the designations you would be unlikely to see rifles like the SV-98 and SV-99 sharing a shooting mound.
    The 12.7mm has the advantage of actually being in service, but the special ammo needed to make a 12.7mm calibre rifle useful and the fact that using standard rifle ammo in that calibre would be an enormous waste of the weapons potential means that there is no advantage in using a standard calibre... it is not like you will find match grade 50 cal ammo lying all over the place on the battlefield.

    I suspect both will be different enough to warrant the use of both weapons in both calibres... but because we don't know who was using the rifles it is hard to make any guesses...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:33 am

    GarryB wrote:It would be quite interesting to identify who was using this rifle and in what context.

    Was it a shooting event? A test?


    Well I have asked the original poster to provide more details if possible.

    Lets see if he has any or we will have to wait.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:25 pm

    Garry , this is what I got when asked for reference ,f-gen, a guy from KBP who seems to be the source , you will have to use translation to figure this out as its in russian.

    http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/topic524-600.html

    He seems to maintain photo album here

    http://www.rusarmy.com/forum/album_personal.php?user_id=10003
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:40 am

    Thanks for doing some leg work for me Austin, I appreciate it. Smile

    The fact that the guy works for KBP, which makes both rifles suggests he was testing on a long range which as anyone who shoots knows is a pain because of the distance to check performance and recover the targets.
    He might have been testing them both at once because the walk/drive to the target is similar so doing both at the same time reduces walk/drive time to the target for the results.

    I also suspect however that he probably wanted a comparison of performance at different ranges and the 12.7 is about the only round that could compete out to 1,200m.

    That photo album of his was worth the effort alone... looks good.

    Now I have some translating to do... Cool
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:28 am

    1. rifle not of the tree, but also not usual plastic.

    2. whose will cartridges - solve to buyer, depending on the size of his purse.

    3. close grouping is considerably better than angular minute.

    4. entire assembly (muzzle brake, supports,
    trigger mechanism so forth) also on the demand of customer, rifle is
    modular construction.

    5. series will be already in this year, practically release already begins.

    6. you already will excuse, thus far without the special details) "

    7. throw down [ssylochku] on to Hansa, but that I in no way will find…

    1. New plastic (resin?) stock
    2. Buyer can choose ammo based on price.
    3. Sub MOA accuracy.
    4. Modular design with customer options.
    5. Close to production status.
    6. can't give away all secrets yet.
    7. ?

    The above is regarding the new 338 LM model rifle. There is the 7.62 x 54mm and 7.62 x 51mm model. Work is starting on 300 magnum model and when that is complete a 12.7mm model will be started.

    Couldn't find any mention of who the rifle was aimed at... so to speak.

    There was an SVD model in 9.3 x 64mm calibre called the SVDK. I wonder if they will bother with a 338 model?

    The Russian military seems to like follow up shots over absolute precision.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:30 am

    GarryB wrote:1. New plastic (resin?) stock

    Polymers I believe , they have been extensively using polymers , polymers can include natural materials and plastics.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:43 am

    Yes, that will be what he means.

    The new black synthetics used for the Kalashnikovs are the same I think.

    Probably better able to take the harsh temperature changes than any sort of wood, and being less dangerous than metal in extremely low or high temperatures too.

    ...plus it looks cool. pirat

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:52 am

    yeah it does , the gun that the child was holding not sure as of yet if its a real or plastic , but it seems to use the new polymers which gives it a toy like look and smooth finish , something you cannot see with metals or woods.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:10 am

    Seems to be the legendary Lebed , was present at the flag presenting ceremony yesterday , thats a interesting SF vehical

    http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/174023
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:35 am

    That kids toy has been in service since the late 1980s...

    http://www.tsniitochmash.ru/archive/asvssen.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS_assault_rifle

    http://www.tulatoz.ru/en/milas.html

    and is reportedly very popular with those that use it.
    The ammo is relatively expensive so it must be pretty good to justify yet another calibre for their armed forces.
    Kalashnikov have even made a competing design in 9 x 39mm called the AK-9 in an attempt to get some action. AFAIK they even had a 30 shot mag developed for it (AK-9) to enhance its appeal.

    Regarding the VDV vid, I believe the vehicle is of his design (Lebed)... it seems he took and existing vehicle and stripped away everything that wasn't essential and started from there.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:09 am

    That things looks lethal , They seem to use heavy but subsonic round perhaps for body armour penetration ?
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:20 am

    Yes, there is a particular round specifically designed to penetrate body armour.

    There are three main rounds for these rifles in 9 x 39mm, the SP-6 is for penetrating body armour, the SP-5 is a more accurate round for sniper rifles against targets not wearing body armour, though it can still penetrate a steel helmet and retain enough energy to kill at 400m while the PAB-9 round is relatively cheap to produce and good for targets at normal combat ranges.

    Being a suppressed weapon round the velocity can't be higher than 290-300m/s, they have rounds in 5.45mm and 7.62 x 39mm that are subsonic to be fired in suppressed AKs but the 5.45mm round weighs 80 grain which isn't even as heavy as a 7.62 x 39mm round. The subsonic 7.62 x 39mm round is about 193 grain.
    Obviously the 9 x 39mm round can't be faster but by being heavier it has more energy and the extra weight of its 250 gain projectiles mean it retains velocity better too.

    For sneaky sneaky troops an AS or VSS is ideal but for normal troops or for an ambush a 7.62 x 39mm AK-103 with a suppressor fitted with subsonic ammo in the first 1 or 2 mags and supersonic ammo in the rest means that initially you can take down sentrys or dogs, but when the enemy is alert you can use full velocity ammo with a much longer effective range and more power.

    Of course the list of weapons that use the 9 x 39mm round is quite long now... the AS, VSS, Groza, SR-3, 9A-91, and AK-9 that I know of.

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