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    China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

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    eridan
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    China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  eridan on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:26 pm

    Russian air force is the third strongest, after chinese air forces. (though discussion on that is not on topic here)

    cracker
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  cracker on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:42 pm

    chinese 2nd? LOL

    not even close. Russia AF is 2nd and will remain so almost forever. What china has over russia AF? number of bombers and specialised ammunitions is not even comparable... Fighters, maybe...

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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:55 pm

    third strongest, after chinese air forces

    No, until China would have they their strategic aviation. They have only superior numbers by now, not quality


    and "stone age" is, i assume, a huge hyperbole?

    I meant they would use stone axes for fighting after several days of massive bombardments. Why to bomb civilian infrastructure? It's command centers, airfields and military stores to be bombed to allow the ground forces to advance and secure vital points with no hindrance

    eridan
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  eridan on Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:16 pm

    are you interested in making a thread for the continuation of this discussion, so we don't spam with off topic stuff here?

    eridan
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    russia vs china army

    Post  eridan on Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:42 am

    Asf wrote:
    No, until China would have they their strategic aviation. They have only superior numbers by now, not quality


    Actually, i'm more interested in this chinese air forces potential versus russian air forces potential debate.

    In case you too are interested, I do have to pose the following questions first:

    1. Do you regard a chinese product made in 2000s as more, less or equally advanced as soviet product made in late 1980s? How about a product made in late 1980s but modernized in 2000s?

    2. Do you believe most soviet built planes still in service with russian air force were substantially upgraded up until today?

    3. You mention strategic aviation. Do you value the capability of having long range bombers as something that pretty much trumps all other potential of a country's air forces? If so, how does that value depend on range? Does the nuclear arsenal come into play here, in your opinion? Are the rest of the aircraft insignificant next to long range (nuclear equipped?) aviation?

    Kimppis
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Kimppis on Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:24 am

    cracker wrote:Can someone quickly calculate a realistic estimate of the budget in $$ (value of 1$=30rub typical "stable" period in the 2000s)?

    I want that this number includes every thing related to Russian defense and interior security, like police, defense facilities, secret services, modernisation projets, etc... not only what "seems" to be the basic "military" budget.

    We all know 80-90b$ is BOLLOCKS. I don't mean the money exchange rate comparison in a void, but i mean, the REAL effective budget if everything is compared to another country (like USA 600b$).... What I want to see (as a result) is rather how would Russian actual budget be in the USA, i think, like 250 to 300b$ equivalency. And remember that US budget is eaten by worldwide bases, the maintaining costs (utterly ridiculously high) of the dozen nuclear carriers, and the terrible lobbying of us MIC companies.

    If you look other countries with 50-60-80b$ budgets, they don't even have 1/10th of the russian capacities.... Saudi???? WTF these morons are paying 1 million $ per rifle or what??... Hell, even china with its "2x greater" budget on paper, isn't remotely close to the total capacities of russia. Anyone dares challenge this point? Chinese military is inferior in EVERY category possible to russian military, except maybe for the SURFACE vessels of the navy, and of course, the total number of active men in service (which means shit). For fu** sake, china isn't even issuing body armor to its troops, USSR did it since the 1970s.

    -Russia has the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal and is buying new systems. They also have the biggest numbers active.
    -Russia has a massive navy especially the submarines, second only to the US navy, but with strike/defense capacities nearly comparable to US navy (not talking deployment of airforces and troops, only the submarines), some of russian submarines are simply the most sophisticated ever devised.
    -Russia has a massive ground army with so many redundancy in firepower, it's not even funny. Russian army's artillery and AA defenses + ballistic missile forces (non nuclear) are simply out of reach even of US army in terms of numbers and quality.
    -Russia has countless facilities, sophisticated ones, operation centers, etc... many modern buildings have been made in last decade.
    -Russia has a strong "internal army" and militarised police, with big means. They have a lot of security services of various kinds.
    -Russia has a complex hierarchy of military research and production centers, probably second to none (US system is different and not really comparable), inherited from soviet times but also modernised /transformed by current russia modernisation program.
    -Russia has the 2nd most powerful airforce and quite frankly no other country (on its own) other than USA can touch RUAF. Even if it's a pathetic dwarfed version of the USSR air force, modern RUAF is still extremely strong and varied.

    Now tell please, how can CLOWNS make a f********** list of assending bugets$$ by country and put saudi arabia on the same f******* level as RUSSIA??? for f*** sake?

    quite simply, this type of ranking has no sense. "oh look! Russia is so weak! we have a budget roughly 80% of hers, and we are small country! Russia so weak!"

    Russia buys russian weapons, and functions almost 100% internally for military questions. Once the nutheads understand that, they'll maybe start to be less clownish. Fake $ value / equivalents have 0 meaning when it comes to Russian military budget and real military capacities.

    When your average american clown says "look, we have 8 times the budget of russia, we are 8 times stronger", he basically fools himself to no point.

    I mostly agree with you, except your points regarding China.

    Things are slowly changing, but most people still underestimating China so much that it's ridiculous. Or rather, their views are outdated, which to be honest is understandable.

    First of all, China's military is considerably larger than Russia's. Atleast around two times larger. Of course that matters and it's not exactly cheap. They have something like 1500 combat aircraft (fighters, bombers) compared to Russia's 1000 at most (probably slightly less actually), and 1000+ of those are going to modern (atleast 4th gen) in 2020.

    Their surface navy is going to be clearly the 2nd strongest within 5 years (and arguably, that is already the case): 2 carriers, 6 LPDs, probably a few helicopter carriers, 20 modern and new destroyers (2 type 055 cruisers, 12 type 052D and 6 type 052C destroyers) + 10 reasonably modern destroyers that are actually getting modernized right now (Chinese Sovs, etc.), 30+ modern and new frigates (type 054A), 40-60 modern, new corvettes (type 056). And almost all of these have been built between 2005 and 2020. That is very, very impressive.

    Their nuclear submarines are not the best, but the new ones aren't bad and they are getting better. And it seems their SSK tech is solid (Song and Yuan-classes). So they have around 12 improved Kilos, in addition to 30+ modern Chinese SSKs in 2020. I'd say that is the 2nd (EDIT: I meant to say the 2nd/3rd stongest submarine force overall, but the number 1 SSK force) strongest diesel sub force in the world.

    Russian navy seems to be "stabilizing", but there is no comparison. And that is China's main priority. The difference between airforces is smaller, but I'd probably give the edge to China in overall fighter fleets. China is still lacking in engines, helicopters, all types of transport aircraft, etc., but they are getting there. Y-20 is going to be in service soon and 200+ WZ-10 and Z-10 helicopters have been built (up from around 0 only a few years ago).

    S-400 is probably the most capable AA-missile system in the world, but China has it's own modern systems, like HQ-9. In any case, Russia's and China's IADSs are by far the strongest in the world, no other countries come close.

    You clearly know nothing about the Chinese military if you say that China doesn't issue body armor to its troops. That is total BS! And it's not like Russia has issued all it's troops with the most modern equipment. Look at some of the pics! Some soldiers are still running around wearing steel helmets. Albeit things are changing fast and they have already improved considerably. Yes, China's ground forces still have lots of obsolete equipment, but 1. the ground forces are huge, around 1 million men, 2. they are not a priority for the Chinese, 3. They also have large amounts of modern and equipment compared to almost any other army in the world. France, Britain are operating 300 MBTs with their 60 billion budgets, FFS. China is going to have 1000+ Type 99s by 2020.

    ==========

    Overall, I'd say Russia's "real" military budget could be around the same as Britain's, France's and Germany's combined, or something like that. So roughly 150-180 billion. Russia has major geographical advantages in Eastern Europe and in its near abroad.

    China's would be at 250 billion+. And certainly that by 2020. At that point it's going to be over 200 billion USD even officially. And 2020 is going to be here very soon and it's going to be a watershed moment for the Chinese military (and for Russia too), that's why I keep mentioning it.

    US the same as it's right now, in nominal terms, 500-600 billion. America has 10 supercarriers, around 80 destroyers and cruisers, 100s of military bases abroad, expensive salaries and pensions, crazy amount of transport ships and aircraft. That's anything but cheap.

    Those are some very unscientific calculations ofc. pirat


    Last edited by Kimppis on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total

    cracker
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  cracker on Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:03 am

    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:Can someone quickly calculate a realistic estimate of the budget in $$ (value of 1$=30rub typical "stable" period in the 2000s)?

    I want that this number includes every thing related to Russian defense and interior security, like police, defense facilities, secret services, modernisation projets, etc... not only what "seems" to be the basic "military" budget.

    We all know 80-90b$ is BOLLOCKS. I don't mean the money exchange rate comparison in a void, but i mean, the REAL effective budget if everything is compared to another country (like USA 600b$).... What I want to see (as a result) is rather how would Russian actual budget be in the USA, i think, like 250 to 300b$ equivalency. And remember that US budget is eaten by worldwide bases, the maintaining costs (utterly ridiculously high) of the dozen nuclear carriers, and the terrible lobbying of us MIC companies.

    If you look other countries with 50-60-80b$ budgets, they don't even have 1/10th of the russian capacities.... Saudi???? WTF these morons are paying 1 million $ per rifle or what??... Hell, even china with its "2x greater" budget on paper, isn't remotely close to the total capacities of russia. Anyone dares challenge this point? Chinese military is inferior in EVERY category possible to russian military, except maybe for the SURFACE vessels of the navy, and of course, the total number of active men in service (which means shit). For fu** sake, china isn't even issuing body armor to its troops, USSR did it since the 1970s.

    -Russia has the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal and is buying new systems. They also have the biggest numbers active.
    -Russia has a massive navy especially the submarines, second only to the US navy, but with strike/defense capacities nearly comparable to US navy (not talking deployment of airforces and troops, only the submarines), some of russian submarines are simply the most sophisticated ever devised.
    -Russia has a massive ground army with so many redundancy in firepower, it's not even funny. Russian army's artillery and AA defenses + ballistic missile forces (non nuclear) are simply out of reach even of US army in terms of numbers and quality.
    -Russia has countless facilities, sophisticated ones, operation centers, etc... many modern buildings have been made in last decade.
    -Russia has a strong "internal army" and militarised police, with big means. They have a lot of security services of various kinds.
    -Russia has a complex hierarchy of military research and production centers, probably second to none (US system is different and not really comparable), inherited from soviet times but also modernised /transformed by current russia modernisation program.
    -Russia has the 2nd most powerful airforce and quite frankly no other country (on its own) other than USA can touch RUAF. Even if it's a pathetic dwarfed version of the USSR air force, modern RUAF is still extremely strong and varied.

    Now tell please, how can CLOWNS make a f********** list of assending bugets$$ by country and put saudi arabia on the same f******* level as RUSSIA??? for f*** sake?

    quite simply, this type of ranking has no sense. "oh look! Russia is so weak! we have a budget roughly 80% of hers, and we are small country! Russia so weak!"

    Russia buys russian weapons, and functions almost 100% internally for military questions. Once the nutheads understand that, they'll maybe start to be less clownish. Fake $ value / equivalents have 0 meaning when it comes to Russian military budget and real military capacities.

    When your average american clown says "look, we have 8 times the budget of russia, we are 8 times stronger", he basically fools himself to no point.

    I mostly agree with you, except your points regarding China.

    Things are slowly changing, but most people still underestimating China so much that it's ridiculous. Or rather, their views are outdated, which to be honest is understandable.

    First of all, China's military is considerably larger than Russia's. Atleast around two times larger. Of course that matters and it's not exactly cheap. They have something like 1500 combat aircraft (fighters, bombers) compared to Russia's 1000 at most (probably slightly less actually), and 1000+ of those are going to modern (atleast 4th gen) in 2020.

    Their surface navy is going to be clearly the 2nd strongest within 5 years (and arguably, that is already the case): 2 carriers, 6 LPDs, probably a few helicopter carriers, 20 modern and new destroyers (2 type 055 cruisers, 12 type 052D and 6 type 052C destroyers) + 10 reasonably modern destroyers that are actually getting modernized right now (Chinese Sovs, etc.), 30+ modern and new frigates (type 054A), 40-60 modern, new corvettes (type 056). And almost all of these have been built between 2005 and 2020. That is very, very impressive.

    Their nuclear submarines are not the best, but the new ones aren't bad and they are getting better. And it seems their SSK tech is solid (Song and Yuan-classes). So they have around 12 improved Kilos, in addition to 30+ modern Chinese SSKs in 2020. I'd say that is the 2nd (EDIT: I meant to say the 2nd/3rd stongest submarine force overall, but the number 1 SSK force) strongest diesel sub force in the world.

    Russian navy seems to be "stabilizing", but there is no comparison. And that is China's main priority. The difference between airforces is smaller, but I'd probably give the edge to China in overall fighter fleets. China is still lacking in engines, helicopters, all types of transport aircraft, etc., but they are getting there. Y-20 is going to be in service soon and 200+ WZ-10 and Z-10 helicopters have been built (up from around 0 only a few years ago).

    S-400 is probably the most capable AA-missile system in the world, but China has it's own modern systems, like HQ-9. In any case, Russia's and China's IADSs are by far the strongest in the world, no other countries come close.

    You clearly know nothing about the Chinese military if you say that China doesn't issue body armor to its troops. That is total BS! And it's not like Russia has issued all it's troops with the most modern equipment. Look at some of the pics! Some soldiers are still running around wearing steel helmets. Albeit things are changing fast and they have already improved considerably. Yes, China's ground forces still have lots of obsolete equipment, but 1. the ground forces are huge, around 1 million men, 2. they are not a priority for the Chinese, 3. They also have large amounts of modern and equipment compared to almost any other army in the world. France, Britain are operating 300 MBTs with their 60 billion budgets, FFS. China is going to have 1000+ Type 99s by 2020.

    ==========

    Overall, I'd say Russia's "real" military budget could be around the same as Britain's, France's and Germany's combined, or something like that. So roughly 150-180 billion. Russia has major geographical advantages in Eastern Europe and in its near abroad.

    China's would be at 250 billion+. And certainly that by 2020. At that point it's going to be over 200 billion USD even officially. And 2020 is going to be here very soon and it's going to be a watershed moment for the Chinese military (and for Russia too), that's why I keep mentioning it.

    US the same as it's right now, in nominal terms, 500-600 billion. America has 10 supercarriers, around 80 destroyers and cruisers, 100s of military bases abroad, expensive salaries and pensions, crazy amount of transport ships and aircraft. That's anything but cheap.

    Those are some very unscientific calculations ofc. pirat



    sorry but my point stands. Tell me how chinese airforce currently or in 10 years from now is even 75% as capable as RUaF. The number they operate are many and many old things comparable to the likes of SU-15 and MiG-23. China has nothing comparable to russia strategic bombers, hell not even to the SU-24 and SU-34, and nothing comparable to the MiG-31 (and god knows china would need it against a US-led asian coalition for some obscure reason one day or another).... As you said, their helicopter fleet and transport fleet are way behind russia too... not even mentioning they rely enormously on foreign technology for their aircrafts.

    If you want, we can make a list of aircrafts used by both AF, and the problem will be solved.

    nope, you won't change my mind. China has a strong surface Navy, that's all she has over russia. It can change in the future. Of course china has large numbers in the ground forces, but it's only MEN and light weapons. AFV / artillery balance with russia is quite poor for china, both quality and quantity. 2 latest chinese tanks are not as good as they claim to be. And most of their tanks are things scrapped in russian army since the late 1990s.

    No, china doesn't issue body armor to its troops, it's a fact. To police, interior spec ops, etc, antiterror, yes, of course... not to regular troops. You can mock the russian steel helmet all you want, but the chinese "kevlar" (PASGT ripoff) is a joke. In fact no helmets come close to current standard issue russian kevlars.

    In the end, china shows us what she wants, strong training there, strong tonks here, but most of its army is still equiped with cheap ripoffs of 1970s soviet tech and most of its force is light motorised (trucks) infantry with poor combat abilities, only worth for riot-control.

    Another thing, the whole current military small arms used by china are quite mediocre to say the least. Russian firearms are far better, starting even with the basic AK-74. Not a really major point, but russia has a shitload of fantastic weapons to chose from for spec ops and antiterror, china doesn't.

    Also the russian standard wheeled utilitary fleet is far bigger, more reliable and more diversified and redundant than that of china.


    If anything, russia should buy some chinese destroyers, i'm sick to see russian navy lacking the most basic modern ships.

    Kimppis
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Kimppis on Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:38 am

    cracker wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:Can someone quickly calculate a realistic estimate of the budget in $$ (value of 1$=30rub typical "stable" period in the 2000s)?

    I want that this number includes every thing related to Russian defense and interior security, like police, defense facilities, secret services, modernisation projets, etc... not only what "seems" to be the basic "military" budget.

    We all know 80-90b$ is BOLLOCKS. I don't mean the money exchange rate comparison in a void, but i mean, the REAL effective budget if everything is compared to another country (like USA 600b$).... What I want to see (as a result) is rather how would Russian actual budget be in the USA, i think, like 250 to 300b$ equivalency. And remember that US budget is eaten by worldwide bases, the maintaining costs (utterly ridiculously high) of the dozen nuclear carriers, and the terrible lobbying of us MIC companies.

    If you look other countries with 50-60-80b$ budgets, they don't even have 1/10th of the russian capacities.... Saudi???? WTF these morons are paying 1 million $ per rifle or what??... Hell, even china with its "2x greater" budget on paper, isn't remotely close to the total capacities of russia. Anyone dares challenge this point? Chinese military is inferior in EVERY category possible to russian military, except maybe for the SURFACE vessels of the navy, and of course, the total number of active men in service (which means shit). For fu** sake, china isn't even issuing body armor to its troops, USSR did it since the 1970s.

    -Russia has the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal and is buying new systems. They also have the biggest numbers active.
    -Russia has a massive navy especially the submarines, second only to the US navy, but with strike/defense capacities nearly comparable to US navy (not talking deployment of airforces and troops, only the submarines), some of russian submarines are simply the most sophisticated ever devised.
    -Russia has a massive ground army with so many redundancy in firepower, it's not even funny. Russian army's artillery and AA defenses + ballistic missile forces (non nuclear) are simply out of reach even of US army in terms of numbers and quality.
    -Russia has countless facilities, sophisticated ones, operation centers, etc... many modern buildings have been made in last decade.
    -Russia has a strong "internal army" and militarised police, with big means. They have a lot of security services of various kinds.
    -Russia has a complex hierarchy of military research and production centers, probably second to none (US system is different and not really comparable), inherited from soviet times but also modernised /transformed by current russia modernisation program.
    -Russia has the 2nd most powerful airforce and quite frankly no other country (on its own) other than USA can touch RUAF. Even if it's a pathetic dwarfed version of the USSR air force, modern RUAF is still extremely strong and varied.

    Now tell please, how can CLOWNS make a f********** list of assending bugets$$ by country and put saudi arabia on the same f******* level as RUSSIA??? for f*** sake?

    quite simply, this type of ranking has no sense. "oh look! Russia is so weak! we have a budget roughly 80% of hers, and we are small country! Russia so weak!"

    Russia buys russian weapons, and functions almost 100% internally for military questions. Once the nutheads understand that, they'll maybe start to be less clownish. Fake $ value / equivalents have 0 meaning when it comes to Russian military budget and real military capacities.

    When your average american clown says "look, we have 8 times the budget of russia, we are 8 times stronger", he basically fools himself to no point.

    I mostly agree with you, except your points regarding China.

    Things are slowly changing, but most people still underestimating China so much that it's ridiculous. Or rather, their views are outdated, which to be honest is understandable.

    First of all, China's military is considerably larger than Russia's. Atleast around two times larger. Of course that matters and it's not exactly cheap. They have something like 1500 combat aircraft (fighters, bombers) compared to Russia's 1000 at most (probably slightly less actually), and 1000+ of those are going to modern (atleast 4th gen) in 2020.

    Their surface navy is going to be clearly the 2nd strongest within 5 years (and arguably, that is already the case): 2 carriers, 6 LPDs, probably a few helicopter carriers, 20 modern and new destroyers (2 type 055 cruisers, 12 type 052D and 6 type 052C destroyers) + 10 reasonably modern destroyers that are actually getting modernized right now (Chinese Sovs, etc.), 30+ modern and new frigates (type 054A), 40-60 modern, new corvettes (type 056). And almost all of these have been built between 2005 and 2020. That is very, very impressive.

    Their nuclear submarines are not the best, but the new ones aren't bad and they are getting better. And it seems their SSK tech is solid (Song and Yuan-classes). So they have around 12 improved Kilos, in addition to 30+ modern Chinese SSKs in 2020. I'd say that is the 2nd (EDIT: I meant to say the 2nd/3rd stongest submarine force overall, but the number 1 SSK force) strongest diesel sub force in the world.

    Russian navy seems to be "stabilizing", but there is no comparison. And that is China's main priority. The difference between airforces is smaller, but I'd probably give the edge to China in overall fighter fleets. China is still lacking in engines, helicopters, all types of transport aircraft, etc., but they are getting there. Y-20 is going to be in service soon and 200+ WZ-10 and Z-10 helicopters have been built (up from around 0 only a few years ago).

    S-400 is probably the most capable AA-missile system in the world, but China has it's own modern systems, like HQ-9. In any case, Russia's and China's IADSs are by far the strongest in the world, no other countries come close.

    You clearly know nothing about the Chinese military if you say that China doesn't issue body armor to its troops. That is total BS! And it's not like Russia has issued all it's troops with the most modern equipment. Look at some of the pics! Some soldiers are still running around wearing steel helmets. Albeit things are changing fast and they have already improved considerably. Yes, China's ground forces still have lots of obsolete equipment, but 1. the ground forces are huge, around 1 million men, 2. they are not a priority for the Chinese, 3. They also have large amounts of modern and equipment compared to almost any other army in the world. France, Britain are operating 300 MBTs with their 60 billion budgets, FFS. China is going to have 1000+ Type 99s by 2020.

    ==========

    Overall, I'd say Russia's "real" military budget could be around the same as Britain's, France's and Germany's combined, or something like that. So roughly 150-180 billion. Russia has major geographical advantages in Eastern Europe and in its near abroad.

    China's would be at 250 billion+. And certainly that by 2020. At that point it's going to be over 200 billion USD even officially. And 2020 is going to be here very soon and it's going to be a watershed moment for the Chinese military (and for Russia too), that's why I keep mentioning it.

    US the same as it's right now, in nominal terms, 500-600 billion. America has 10 supercarriers, around 80 destroyers and cruisers, 100s of military bases abroad, expensive salaries and pensions, crazy amount of transport ships and aircraft. That's anything but cheap.

    Those are some very unscientific calculations ofc. pirat



    sorry but my point stands. Tell me how chinese airforce currently or in 10 years from now is even 75% as capable as RUaF. The number they operate are many and many old things comparable to the likes of SU-15 and MiG-23. China has nothing comparable to russia strategic bombers, hell not even to the SU-24 and SU-34, and nothing comparable to the MiG-31 (and god knows china would need it against a US-led asian coalition for some obscure reason one day or another).... As you said, their helicopter fleet and transport fleet are way behind russia too... not even mentioning they rely enormously on foreign technology for their aircrafts.

    If you want, we can make a list of aircrafts used by both AF, and the problem will be solved.

    nope, you won't change my mind. China has a strong surface Navy, that's all she has over russia. It can change in the future. Of course china has large numbers in the ground forces, but it's only MEN and light weapons. AFV / artillery balance with russia is quite poor for china, both quality and quantity. 2 latest chinese tanks are not as good as they claim to be. And most of their tanks are things scrapped in russian army since the late 1990s.

    No, china doesn't issue body armor to its troops, it's a fact. To police, interior spec ops, etc, antiterror, yes, of course... not to regular troops. You can mock the russian steel helmet all you want, but the chinese "kevlar" (PASGT ripoff) is a joke. In fact no helmets come close to current standard issue russian kevlars.

    In the end, china shows us what she wants, strong training there, strong tonks here, but most of its army is still equiped with cheap ripoffs of 1970s soviet tech and most of its force is light motorised (trucks) infantry with poor combat abilities, only worth for riot-control.

    Another thing, the whole current military small arms used by china are quite mediocre to say the least. Russian firearms are far better, starting even with the basic AK-74. Not a really major point, but russia has a shitload of fantastic weapons to chose from for spec ops and antiterror, china doesn't.

    Also the russian standard wheeled utilitary fleet is far bigger, more reliable and more diversified and redundant than that of china.


    If anything, russia should buy some chinese destroyers, i'm sick to see russian navy lacking the most basic modern ships.

    China's 4th gen fighter fleet is larger than Russia's, and will certainly be by 2020.
    300+ J-10
    300+ J-11
    100 SU-30MKK
    JH-7 can probably be included too: 200

    And that number is growing fast.

    Aircraft comparable to Su-34: J-16 (multirole Flanker)
    Aircraft comparable to Su-24: JH-7 (and J-16)

    China doesn't really need interceptors in a same way as Russia. And if I'm not mistaken, MIG-31 is still the only 4th gen interceptor. Other big powers don't have them either.

    Yes, they are lacking in transports and helicopters, but modern designs are ready and they are building them as I mentioned. China doesn't rely "enormously" on foreign technology. This isn't 2005 (or 1995, or 1985...), lol.

    China has very large amounts of ground equipment, mechanization has been going on, ofc. Exact numbers are hard to come by, because China is very secretive about its military. And of course China issues body armour to its troops! Basically every army does that. Not to all units, of course.

    And it seems to me that you think that Russian army is some kind of Soviet behemoth. They don't have 20 000 ultra modern tanks in active service, for example. The actual number of tanks is around 2500, the number of IFVs and APC's is similar. The size of the Russian army is around 300 000 men, if I'm not mistaken. China's is atleast 800 000. That, of course, is not free.  

    The original topic was about military budget, and it's absolutely clear that China is spending (and in particular, has been spending since like 2005) and can afford to spend more on its military than Russia.

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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:58 am

    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:Can someone quickly calculate a realistic estimate of the budget in $$ (value of 1$=30rub typical "stable" period in the 2000s)?

    I want that this number includes every thing related to Russian defense and interior security, like police, defense facilities, secret services, modernisation projets, etc... not only what "seems" to be the basic "military" budget.

    We all know 80-90b$ is BOLLOCKS. I don't mean the money exchange rate comparison in a void, but i mean, the REAL effective budget if everything is compared to another country (like USA 600b$).... What I want to see (as a result) is rather how would Russian actual budget be in the USA, i think, like 250 to 300b$ equivalency. And remember that US budget is eaten by worldwide bases, the maintaining costs (utterly ridiculously high) of the dozen nuclear carriers, and the terrible lobbying of us MIC companies.

    If you look other countries with 50-60-80b$ budgets, they don't even have 1/10th of the russian capacities.... Saudi???? WTF these morons are paying 1 million $ per rifle or what??... Hell, even china with its "2x greater" budget on paper, isn't remotely close to the total capacities of russia. Anyone dares challenge this point? Chinese military is inferior in EVERY category possible to russian military, except maybe for the SURFACE vessels of the navy, and of course, the total number of active men in service (which means shit). For fu** sake, china isn't even issuing body armor to its troops, USSR did it since the 1970s.

    -Russia has the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal and is buying new systems. They also have the biggest numbers active.
    -Russia has a massive navy especially the submarines, second only to the US navy, but with strike/defense capacities nearly comparable to US navy (not talking deployment of airforces and troops, only the submarines), some of russian submarines are simply the most sophisticated ever devised.
    -Russia has a massive ground army with so many redundancy in firepower, it's not even funny. Russian army's artillery and AA defenses + ballistic missile forces (non nuclear) are simply out of reach even of US army in terms of numbers and quality.
    -Russia has countless facilities, sophisticated ones, operation centers, etc... many modern buildings have been made in last decade.
    -Russia has a strong "internal army" and militarised police, with big means. They have a lot of security services of various kinds.
    -Russia has a complex hierarchy of military research and production centers, probably second to none (US system is different and not really comparable), inherited from soviet times but also modernised /transformed by current russia modernisation program.
    -Russia has the 2nd most powerful airforce and quite frankly no other country (on its own) other than USA can touch RUAF. Even if it's a pathetic dwarfed version of the USSR air force, modern RUAF is still extremely strong and varied.

    Now tell please, how can CLOWNS make a f********** list of assending bugets$$ by country and put saudi arabia on the same f******* level as RUSSIA??? for f*** sake?

    quite simply, this type of ranking has no sense. "oh look! Russia is so weak! we have a budget roughly 80% of hers, and we are small country! Russia so weak!"

    Russia buys russian weapons, and functions almost 100% internally for military questions. Once the nutheads understand that, they'll maybe start to be less clownish. Fake $ value / equivalents have 0 meaning when it comes to Russian military budget and real military capacities.

    When your average american clown says "look, we have 8 times the budget of russia, we are 8 times stronger", he basically fools himself to no point.

    I mostly agree with you, except your points regarding China.

    Things are slowly changing, but most people still underestimating China so much that it's ridiculous. Or rather, their views are outdated, which to be honest is understandable.

    First of all, China's military is considerably larger than Russia's. Atleast around two times larger. Of course that matters and it's not exactly cheap. They have something like 1500 combat aircraft (fighters, bombers) compared to Russia's 1000 at most (probably slightly less actually), and 1000+ of those are going to modern (atleast 4th gen) in 2020.

    Their surface navy is going to be clearly the 2nd strongest within 5 years (and arguably, that is already the case): 2 carriers, 6 LPDs, probably a few helicopter carriers, 20 modern and new destroyers (2 type 055 cruisers, 12 type 052D and 6 type 052C destroyers) + 10 reasonably modern destroyers that are actually getting modernized right now (Chinese Sovs, etc.), 30+ modern and new frigates (type 054A), 40-60 modern, new corvettes (type 056). And almost all of these have been built between 2005 and 2020. That is very, very impressive.

    Their nuclear submarines are not the best, but the new ones aren't bad and they are getting better. And it seems their SSK tech is solid (Song and Yuan-classes). So they have around 12 improved Kilos, in addition to 30+ modern Chinese SSKs in 2020. I'd say that is the 2nd (EDIT: I meant to say the 2nd/3rd stongest submarine force overall, but the number 1 SSK force) strongest diesel sub force in the world.

    Russian navy seems to be "stabilizing", but there is no comparison. And that is China's main priority. The difference between airforces is smaller, but I'd probably give the edge to China in overall fighter fleets. China is still lacking in engines, helicopters, all types of transport aircraft, etc., but they are getting there. Y-20 is going to be in service soon and 200+ WZ-10 and Z-10 helicopters have been built (up from around 0 only a few years ago).

    S-400 is probably the most capable AA-missile system in the world, but China has it's own modern systems, like HQ-9. In any case, Russia's and China's IADSs are by far the strongest in the world, no other countries come close.

    You clearly know nothing about the Chinese military if you say that China doesn't issue body armor to its troops. That is total BS! And it's not like Russia has issued all it's troops with the most modern equipment. Look at some of the pics! Some soldiers are still running around wearing steel helmets. Albeit things are changing fast and they have already improved considerably. Yes, China's ground forces still have lots of obsolete equipment, but 1. the ground forces are huge, around 1 million men, 2. they are not a priority for the Chinese, 3. They also have large amounts of modern and equipment compared to almost any other army in the world. France, Britain are operating 300 MBTs with their 60 billion budgets, FFS. China is going to have 1000+ Type 99s by 2020.

    ==========

    Overall, I'd say Russia's "real" military budget could be around the same as Britain's, France's and Germany's combined, or something like that. So roughly 150-180 billion. Russia has major geographical advantages in Eastern Europe and in its near abroad.

    China's would be at 250 billion+. And certainly that by 2020. At that point it's going to be over 200 billion USD even officially. And 2020 is going to be here very soon and it's going to be a watershed moment for the Chinese military (and for Russia too), that's why I keep mentioning it.

    US the same as it's right now, in nominal terms, 500-600 billion. America has 10 supercarriers, around 80 destroyers and cruisers, 100s of military bases abroad, expensive salaries and pensions, crazy amount of transport ships and aircraft. That's anything but cheap.

    Those are some very unscientific calculations ofc. pirat



    sorry but my point stands. Tell me how chinese airforce currently or in 10 years from now is even 75% as capable as RUaF. The number they operate are many and many old things comparable to the likes of SU-15 and MiG-23. China has nothing comparable to russia strategic bombers, hell not even to the SU-24 and SU-34, and nothing comparable to the MiG-31 (and god knows china would need it against a US-led asian coalition for some obscure reason one day or another).... As you said, their helicopter fleet and transport fleet are way behind russia too... not even mentioning they rely enormously on foreign technology for their aircrafts.

    If you want, we can make a list of aircrafts used by both AF, and the problem will be solved.

    nope, you won't change my mind. China has a strong surface Navy, that's all she has over russia. It can change in the future. Of course china has large numbers in the ground forces, but it's only MEN and light weapons. AFV / artillery balance with russia is quite poor for china, both quality and quantity. 2 latest chinese tanks are not as good as they claim to be. And most of their tanks are things scrapped in russian army since the late 1990s.

    No, china doesn't issue body armor to its troops, it's a fact. To police, interior spec ops, etc, antiterror, yes, of course... not to regular troops. You can mock the russian steel helmet all you want, but the chinese "kevlar" (PASGT ripoff) is a joke. In fact no helmets come close to current standard issue russian kevlars.

    In the end, china shows us what she wants, strong training there, strong tonks here, but most of its army is still equiped with cheap ripoffs of 1970s soviet tech and most of its force is light motorised (trucks) infantry with poor combat abilities, only worth for riot-control.

    Another thing, the whole current military small arms used by china are quite mediocre to say the least. Russian firearms are far better, starting even with the basic AK-74. Not a really major point, but russia has a shitload of fantastic weapons to chose from for spec ops and antiterror, china doesn't.

    Also the russian standard wheeled utilitary fleet is far bigger, more reliable and more diversified and redundant than that of china.


    If anything, russia should buy some chinese destroyers, i'm sick to see russian navy lacking the most basic modern ships.

    China's 4th gen fighter fleet is larger than Russia's, and will certainly be by 2020.
    300+ J-10
    300+ J-11
    100 SU-30MKK
    JH-7 can probably be included too: 200

    And that number is growing fast.

    Aircraft comparable to Su-34: J-16 (multirole Flanker)
    Aircraft comparable to Su-24: JH-7 (and J-16)

    China doesn't really need interceptors in a same way as Russia. And if I'm not mistaken, MIG-31 is still the only 4th gen interceptor. Other big powers don't have them either.

    Yes, they are lacking in transports and helicopters, but modern designs are ready and they are building them as I mentioned. China doesn't rely "enormously" on foreign technology. This isn't 2005 (or 1995, or 1985...), lol.

    China has very large amounts of ground equipment, mechanization has been going on, ofc. Exact numbers are hard to come by, because China is very secretive about its military. And of course China issues body armour to its troops! Basically every army does that. Not to all units, of course.

    And it seems to me that you think that Russian army is some kind of Soviet behemoth. They don't have 20 000 ultra modern tanks in active service, for example. The actual number of tanks is around 2500, the number of IFVs and APC's is similar. The size of the Russian army is around 300 000 men, if I'm not mistaken. China's is atleast 800 000. That, of course, is not free.  

    The original topic was about military budget, and it's absolutely clear that China is spending (and in particular, has been spending since like 2005) and can afford to spend more on its military than Russia.

    Those planes are not comparable.  J-10 seems decent but J-11 is questionable at best as far as we are aware.  Russia also has over 100 MiG-29's that are still operable.  Su-27's in service as well, quite a few of them.  Possibly over 300.  Su-35 has no Chinese equivalent and Su-30SM is far more capable of a system (J-16 possibly closer to this aircraft).  

    China's airforce isn't small, but it isnt grand either.  They are building semi quick but the rest comes into question about reliability and availability of such aircraft.  China seems to be more concentrated on its Navy than its airforce, and that may have more to do with countering US.

    Kimppis
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Kimppis on Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:46 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    cracker wrote:Can someone quickly calculate a realistic estimate of the budget in $$ (value of 1$=30rub typical "stable" period in the 2000s)?

    I want that this number includes every thing related to Russian defense and interior security, like police, defense facilities, secret services, modernisation projets, etc... not only what "seems" to be the basic "military" budget.

    We all know 80-90b$ is BOLLOCKS. I don't mean the money exchange rate comparison in a void, but i mean, the REAL effective budget if everything is compared to another country (like USA 600b$).... What I want to see (as a result) is rather how would Russian actual budget be in the USA, i think, like 250 to 300b$ equivalency. And remember that US budget is eaten by worldwide bases, the maintaining costs (utterly ridiculously high) of the dozen nuclear carriers, and the terrible lobbying of us MIC companies.

    If you look other countries with 50-60-80b$ budgets, they don't even have 1/10th of the russian capacities.... Saudi???? WTF these morons are paying 1 million $ per rifle or what??... Hell, even china with its "2x greater" budget on paper, isn't remotely close to the total capacities of russia. Anyone dares challenge this point? Chinese military is inferior in EVERY category possible to russian military, except maybe for the SURFACE vessels of the navy, and of course, the total number of active men in service (which means shit). For fu** sake, china isn't even issuing body armor to its troops, USSR did it since the 1970s.

    -Russia has the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal and is buying new systems. They also have the biggest numbers active.
    -Russia has a massive navy especially the submarines, second only to the US navy, but with strike/defense capacities nearly comparable to US navy (not talking deployment of airforces and troops, only the submarines), some of russian submarines are simply the most sophisticated ever devised.
    -Russia has a massive ground army with so many redundancy in firepower, it's not even funny. Russian army's artillery and AA defenses + ballistic missile forces (non nuclear) are simply out of reach even of US army in terms of numbers and quality.
    -Russia has countless facilities, sophisticated ones, operation centers, etc... many modern buildings have been made in last decade.
    -Russia has a strong "internal army" and militarised police, with big means. They have a lot of security services of various kinds.
    -Russia has a complex hierarchy of military research and production centers, probably second to none (US system is different and not really comparable), inherited from soviet times but also modernised /transformed by current russia modernisation program.
    -Russia has the 2nd most powerful airforce and quite frankly no other country (on its own) other than USA can touch RUAF. Even if it's a pathetic dwarfed version of the USSR air force, modern RUAF is still extremely strong and varied.

    Now tell please, how can CLOWNS make a f********** list of assending bugets$$ by country and put saudi arabia on the same f******* level as RUSSIA??? for f*** sake?

    quite simply, this type of ranking has no sense. "oh look! Russia is so weak! we have a budget roughly 80% of hers, and we are small country! Russia so weak!"

    Russia buys russian weapons, and functions almost 100% internally for military questions. Once the nutheads understand that, they'll maybe start to be less clownish. Fake $ value / equivalents have 0 meaning when it comes to Russian military budget and real military capacities.

    When your average american clown says "look, we have 8 times the budget of russia, we are 8 times stronger", he basically fools himself to no point.

    I mostly agree with you, except your points regarding China.

    Things are slowly changing, but most people still underestimating China so much that it's ridiculous. Or rather, their views are outdated, which to be honest is understandable.

    First of all, China's military is considerably larger than Russia's. Atleast around two times larger. Of course that matters and it's not exactly cheap. They have something like 1500 combat aircraft (fighters, bombers) compared to Russia's 1000 at most (probably slightly less actually), and 1000+ of those are going to modern (atleast 4th gen) in 2020.

    Their surface navy is going to be clearly the 2nd strongest within 5 years (and arguably, that is already the case): 2 carriers, 6 LPDs, probably a few helicopter carriers, 20 modern and new destroyers (2 type 055 cruisers, 12 type 052D and 6 type 052C destroyers) + 10 reasonably modern destroyers that are actually getting modernized right now (Chinese Sovs, etc.), 30+ modern and new frigates (type 054A), 40-60 modern, new corvettes (type 056). And almost all of these have been built between 2005 and 2020. That is very, very impressive.

    Their nuclear submarines are not the best, but the new ones aren't bad and they are getting better. And it seems their SSK tech is solid (Song and Yuan-classes). So they have around 12 improved Kilos, in addition to 30+ modern Chinese SSKs in 2020. I'd say that is the 2nd (EDIT: I meant to say the 2nd/3rd stongest submarine force overall, but the number 1 SSK force) strongest diesel sub force in the world.

    Russian navy seems to be "stabilizing", but there is no comparison. And that is China's main priority. The difference between airforces is smaller, but I'd probably give the edge to China in overall fighter fleets. China is still lacking in engines, helicopters, all types of transport aircraft, etc., but they are getting there. Y-20 is going to be in service soon and 200+ WZ-10 and Z-10 helicopters have been built (up from around 0 only a few years ago).

    S-400 is probably the most capable AA-missile system in the world, but China has it's own modern systems, like HQ-9. In any case, Russia's and China's IADSs are by far the strongest in the world, no other countries come close.

    You clearly know nothing about the Chinese military if you say that China doesn't issue body armor to its troops. That is total BS! And it's not like Russia has issued all it's troops with the most modern equipment. Look at some of the pics! Some soldiers are still running around wearing steel helmets. Albeit things are changing fast and they have already improved considerably. Yes, China's ground forces still have lots of obsolete equipment, but 1. the ground forces are huge, around 1 million men, 2. they are not a priority for the Chinese, 3. They also have large amounts of modern and equipment compared to almost any other army in the world. France, Britain are operating 300 MBTs with their 60 billion budgets, FFS. China is going to have 1000+ Type 99s by 2020.

    ==========

    Overall, I'd say Russia's "real" military budget could be around the same as Britain's, France's and Germany's combined, or something like that. So roughly 150-180 billion. Russia has major geographical advantages in Eastern Europe and in its near abroad.

    China's would be at 250 billion+. And certainly that by 2020. At that point it's going to be over 200 billion USD even officially. And 2020 is going to be here very soon and it's going to be a watershed moment for the Chinese military (and for Russia too), that's why I keep mentioning it.

    US the same as it's right now, in nominal terms, 500-600 billion. America has 10 supercarriers, around 80 destroyers and cruisers, 100s of military bases abroad, expensive salaries and pensions, crazy amount of transport ships and aircraft. That's anything but cheap.

    Those are some very unscientific calculations ofc. pirat



    sorry but my point stands. Tell me how chinese airforce currently or in 10 years from now is even 75% as capable as RUaF. The number they operate are many and many old things comparable to the likes of SU-15 and MiG-23. China has nothing comparable to russia strategic bombers, hell not even to the SU-24 and SU-34, and nothing comparable to the MiG-31 (and god knows china would need it against a US-led asian coalition for some obscure reason one day or another).... As you said, their helicopter fleet and transport fleet are way behind russia too... not even mentioning they rely enormously on foreign technology for their aircrafts.

    If you want, we can make a list of aircrafts used by both AF, and the problem will be solved.

    nope, you won't change my mind. China has a strong surface Navy, that's all she has over russia. It can change in the future. Of course china has large numbers in the ground forces, but it's only MEN and light weapons. AFV / artillery balance with russia is quite poor for china, both quality and quantity. 2 latest chinese tanks are not as good as they claim to be. And most of their tanks are things scrapped in russian army since the late 1990s.

    No, china doesn't issue body armor to its troops, it's a fact. To police, interior spec ops, etc, antiterror, yes, of course... not to regular troops. You can mock the russian steel helmet all you want, but the chinese "kevlar" (PASGT ripoff) is a joke. In fact no helmets come close to current standard issue russian kevlars.

    In the end, china shows us what she wants, strong training there, strong tonks here, but most of its army is still equiped with cheap ripoffs of 1970s soviet tech and most of its force is light motorised (trucks) infantry with poor combat abilities, only worth for riot-control.

    Another thing, the whole current military small arms used by china are quite mediocre to say the least. Russian firearms are far better, starting even with the basic AK-74. Not a really major point, but russia has a shitload of fantastic weapons to chose from for spec ops and antiterror, china doesn't.

    Also the russian standard wheeled utilitary fleet is far bigger, more reliable and more diversified and redundant than that of china.


    If anything, russia should buy some chinese destroyers, i'm sick to see russian navy lacking the most basic modern ships.

    China's 4th gen fighter fleet is larger than Russia's, and will certainly be by 2020.
    300+ J-10
    300+ J-11
    100 SU-30MKK
    JH-7 can probably be included too: 200

    And that number is growing fast.

    Aircraft comparable to Su-34: J-16 (multirole Flanker)
    Aircraft comparable to Su-24: JH-7 (and J-16)

    China doesn't really need interceptors in a same way as Russia. And if I'm not mistaken, MIG-31 is still the only 4th gen interceptor. Other big powers don't have them either.

    Yes, they are lacking in transports and helicopters, but modern designs are ready and they are building them as I mentioned. China doesn't rely "enormously" on foreign technology. This isn't 2005 (or 1995, or 1985...), lol.

    China has very large amounts of ground equipment, mechanization has been going on, ofc. Exact numbers are hard to come by, because China is very secretive about its military. And of course China issues body armour to its troops! Basically every army does that. Not to all units, of course.

    And it seems to me that you think that Russian army is some kind of Soviet behemoth. They don't have 20 000 ultra modern tanks in active service, for example. The actual number of tanks is around 2500, the number of IFVs and APC's is similar. The size of the Russian army is around 300 000 men, if I'm not mistaken. China's is atleast 800 000. That, of course, is not free.  

    The original topic was about military budget, and it's absolutely clear that China is spending (and in particular, has been spending since like 2005) and can afford to spend more on its military than Russia.

    Those planes are not comparable.  J-10 seems decent but J-11 is questionable at best as far as we are aware.  Russia also has over 100 MiG-29's that are still operable.  Su-27's in service as well, quite a few of them.  Possibly over 300.  Su-35 has no Chinese equivalent and Su-30SM is far more capable of a system (J-16 possibly closer to this aircraft).  

    China's airforce isn't small, but it isnt grand either.  They are building semi quick but the rest comes into question about reliability and availability of such aircraft.  China seems to be more concentrated on its Navy than its airforce, and that may have more to do with countering US.

    It's funny. Russian military fans/experts (and many others) keep downplaying J-11/Chinese Flankers, in particular, for whatever reason. Is it because the airframe is a copy of the Flanker? I'm not an expert, but if you ask from Chinese military enthusiast (who are usually not massive "CCP-fanboys" or something, just read Sinodefence, which is very professional), there's absolutely no basis in those kind of views. China keeps building improved variants: they are equipped with modern Chinese missiles (and also Russian at this point), modern Russian or Chinese (more and more) engines and if I'm not mistaken, J-11D (the newest variant), J-16 and J-15B are all equipped with AESA radars. I'm not saying that they're better than the Russian versions, but I don't see a reason to believe that the Chinese are much worse, either. That's why they keep improving and building them.

    The closest equivalent to Su-35 is probably J-11D. It seems that China is also going to be building 5th fighters faster than Russia, especially if there won't be around 50 T-50s by 2020, as was originally planned. Not to mention that J-31 is probably going to enter service around 2020 (maybe a few years after that).

    I agree that China's 4th fighter fleet is not massively larger than Russia's right now (they are probably around the same size), but there will a difference in 2020. And overall the fleet is larger than Russia's, when you include J-7, J-8 and Q-5, which, you know, cost money to operate (this discussion was originally about military spending), it's the 2nd largest in the world (1200+, probably closer to 1500).

    I don't any reason to believe that they are not reliable, etc, quite the opposite in fact. That's just biased, imo. Yes, the current procurement numbers are probably around the same as Russia's, probably around 200 aircraft (including helicopters) per year, but it's enough to modernize the whole fleet by 2025 and mostly by 2020, and I'd expect that number to grow after 2020.

    And yes, it seems that navy is the number 1 priority for them. Airforce is probably a close number 2.

    sepheronx
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:09 pm

    Su-35 is better than J-11D specifically for the fact that Irbis-E radar alone has proven its detection/tracking range to be close to 400km, making it by far the best airborne radar for a fighter jet.  Add to that, it also has sensor fusion as well.  J-11B is an upgraded J-11. It isn't a bad jet but it isn't Su-35.  As well, China has somewhat issues selling its aircrafts abroad and I recall seeing photos of a J-11 (older model of course) that fell apart literally on its own (it was on mp.net).  J-10 seems like a decent fighter and would make a good aircraft for cheap.  But there is a reason why various countries have chosen aircrafts like Su-30 over lets say the Chinese alternative.  Add to that Su-30 Bars-R radar sports over 250km detection/tracking range from estimates, something that is said to be better than what we know of Chinese radar systems.

    A copy is still a copy.  China has some trouble copying engines as was evident for years.  Their AESA technology is purely based upon, as far as I am aware of, off the shelf tech, while Russia's was done from ground up (they had no choice).  Russia has moved to already 15W GaAS modules and possibly future 30W and as well working on GaN modules.  Not much is truly known about the Chinese GaAS/GaN modules but it is assumed to be not as effective (I have read about 10W, which isn't bad of course).  Once again, it doesn't mean it is bad and really I agree they have made great strides, but as well, it is overblown.

    One thing to also remember it isn't just about the radar or radar type itself.  It is how it is powered, cooled and used.  For instance, Su-34's and Su-30SM's have around 15KW of power while Su-35S uses around 20KW of power.  How the system works is power in - power out.  More energy available to the radar, the better results it can have.  In this, the Irbis-E requires a lot of power (Irbis E isn't pesa or aesa but a Hybrid between the two) and requires 20KW of power.  In so, it is what helps provide its massive detection/engagement range.  PAK FA with its N036 radar has apparently similar performance characteristics as Irbis-E but being full AESA instead, still requires the 15 - 20KW of power.  That is supplied through the APU/Generator.  Older Su-27's for instance (J-11 is more based off of the Su-27SKM), didn't have the same amount of power output and I don't think the J-11D does either.  My guess is the J-11D may have similar radar performance of that of Bars-R but better ECM capabilities due to being AESA radar.  MiG-29/35 proved that it has difficulties as it has problems powering its AESA radar thus the performance of the AESA radar Zhuk-A is sub-par compared to the Hybrid radars or the N036.  The AESA GaAS modules from Istok is rated around 5w - 10w and works roughly around 3w due to either power issue or cooling issue, at most in one time and thus with over 1000 T/R modules, has a pitiful detection range of 160km, if that.  

    Su-35 is by far one of the best fighter jets available on the market.  Not too expensive, has best known fighter based radar in terms of raw power, and has quite the suite to it too (integrated AESA L band modules, modern electronic warfare, etc).  But if the Chinese jets were clearly the best option over Russian or equal, they would have sold exports.  So far, JF-17 is the only real Chinese winner in export besides older MiG-21 knockoffs.  The best jet I think China has by far is the J-10 and variants.  It is cheap, but seems to pack a lot of advanced equipment to it.  It is also a none exporter as I believe it holds sensitive technology on it that China isn't prepared to let out.  I know there were countries interested in it but instead ended up with JF-17.  J-11 seems to be a decent jet and acts as China's long range plane while the J-15 is the carrier variant like Su-33 and J-16 is like the Su-30MK2 or dual seater J-11.  Not a bad setup actually.

    Edit: I want to make a correction.  Apparently Bars-M uses roughly 10KW of power not 15W.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

    cracker
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  cracker on Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:36 am

    Ok here's a comprehensive list of combat aircrafts (in service, active or high readiness storage) of both air forces.... Tell me which is stronger.

    note: J-16 comparable to SU-34??? J-16 is barely a two seater multirole SU-27 like SU-30SM but worse. It's basically a SU-30MKK improved and with chinese components instead of russian. SU-34 has no equivalent in China AF. Not in any AF as a matter of fact.


    China, AF+navalAF ("+" means there are probably a few more planes because data is from 2014)

    Bombers:

    ~134-170 Xian H-6. This is a copy of the soviet TU-16, retired of RUAF in 1993. H-6 is mostly used in modernised variants, as a missile carrier, and its bomb load of 9 tonnes is poor (theorical up to 12 tonnes should be possible as some Tu-16 variants did). Refueling or other non combat variants exist. This is the sole strategic bomber of China.

    total: 134-170
    total modern: 0


    Attack-strike

    ~240 Xian JH-7. This is the most sophisticated attack aircraft of China. It can carry also up to 9 tonnes of ordnonance (but unlike H-6, it must use drop tanks, reducing real playload to 7-8 tonnes). It's a fast flying brick without variable sweep wings. I don't know any directly comparable russian airplane. But the Su-24 is probably the most comparable. Su-24 is a bomber, accurate and slower, the JH-7 is like a fighter bomber with dive attack pattern for the most part. I'd say it looks and works like a bomber-mission F-4 phantom.

    ~150 Nanchang Q-5. This airplane is old and carries a ridiculously small playload (2 tonnes)... It is based on MiG-19 (1950s fighter). Comparable at most to SU-7B and early SU-17... Both of which where retired by the 1980s in soviet airforce (latest SU-17 modernisations before 2000)... Its mission is supposed to be CAS like SU-25, but it doesn't come close to the SU-25 performance at all.

    total: ~390
    total modern: ~240


    Fighters (multirole/fighter-bomber capable or not) and interceptors

    1 prototype Shenyang J-31 5th gen fighter, probably combat capable.

    7 prototypes Chengdu J-20 5th gen fighter, probably combat capable.

    ~59-76 SU-27SK and SU-27UBK. K denotes export variant. Are basic SU-27(improved SU-27S) exported to China. Nothing special to say, they are no worse (maybe a little) nor better than current basic SU-27S/SU-27P in service with RUAF.

    ~269+(probably up to 280 at this date) J-11, J-15, J-16 fighters. J-15 is a carrier variant of the J-11, like SU-33. J-16 is a two seat multirole like SU-30MKK, Mk2, M2, SM (SM being better in every respect of the SU-30 family), strike capable. J-11B is the most common variant of J-11 and is like SU-27SM more or less, a modernised variant. Earlier J-11 (that make about 35-40% of whole J-11 family) are basically just SU-27 with chinese manufactured components, so, indigenous but not necessarily better than SU-27 (SU-27S). Total modern of the family, maybe 160-170.

    ~97 SU-30MKK, MK2. Nothing special to say, SU-30 is one of the best multirole fighters on earth and china has nearly 100 of them.

    ~274+(probably 290 at this date) Chengdu J-10. Light multirole delta-wing fighter. Roughly comparable to F-16, Gripen, mirage 2000, less so to Typhoon, F-18, Rafale. Most comparable russian plane: MiG-29. Comparable technology/modern russian plane: MiG-29SMT, MiG-35 (soon to be adopted, and will be more advanced than J-10). Nothing special to say, a good aircraft if you believe Chinese claims. Its sole really indigenous modern aircraft.

    ~240 (as of 2015 maybe 200 total) Shenyang J-8. Interceptor comparable to SU-9/SU-11 and early SU-15 for early variants and to SU-15TM for late variants. A bit comparable to MiG-23P (ML, MLD) as well. MiG-23 and SU-15TM are more advanced in many ways. Introduced in 1980 (earliest variant) when USSR already had Mig-25 and was introducing MiG-31, both of which replaced SU-15 for most critical interception missions. Nothing special to say, it's an old but decent aircraft. More than 44 are recon variants.

    ~460-558 Chengdu J-7. Real number in service may be much lower. Mig-21 copy... nothing else to say. Variants in service are most modern variations equivalent to MiG-21Bis probably, and some trainer variants too. This aircraft is just kept in service to maintain high numbers and have a reserve, until more and more modern planes are accepted to replace them.

    total (low): 1367
    total (high, hypothetical): 1549
    Note: some are recon/trainer variants, not really combat capable.

    total "modern" (vague low estimation): 274(if we consider all J-10 including early J-10 as modern)+97(SU-30)+160(if you consider all J-11B, J-15, J-16 as modern, but earlier J-11 as not)= 539
    High estimation: 290(total J-10 in service by late 2015 estimation)+97(SU-30)+280(total J-11 family included, with 280 as estimated total produced by late 2015, very unreliable number)= 675

    So it looks impressive, but none of these fighters is as good as the SU-35S and SU-30SM. Most modern fighters of china are probably as good as SU-27SM3 and MiG-29SMT and SU-30M2.


    Combat capable trainers (light attack):

    ~190-362 Hongdu JL-8. Basic trainer similar to Aero L-39. Up to 1 tonne of ordonance and a 23mm gun pod. Planed to be replaced, see below.

    ~at least 12 Hongdu L-15. New generation similar to Yak-130.

    >12 Guizhou JL-9. Not really in service, maybe to naval aviation, alternative (cheaper) to L-15.

    ~40-200 (200 might be total produced, so 40 is more likely and will be used in total number) JJ-7. Training variant of J-7 (MiG-21), already included in the fighter numbers. They are combat capable similar to standard J-7.

    ~20 JJ-5 and JJ-6. Leftover totally obsolete trainer variants of J-5 and J-6 (mig-17/19)... Appently still used in naval AF.

    Total low: 190+12+12+40+20= 274
    Total high: 362+12+12+40+20= 446

    Total fixed-wing combat capable aircrafts of China: low: 2165, high: 2555.
    Total "modern" (trainers included): low: 803, high: 939.



    Russia, AF + naval AF.

    Bombers:


    ~93 TU-22M3, MR, M3M. Maybe up to 58 more (naval aviation supposedly all transferred to AF by 2011). Strategic bomber with up to 24 tonnes of ordonance. Missile carrier, nuclear bomber, conventional bomber. No equivalent in China. According to russian wiki, 150 total with only 41 in service. 30 to be upgraded M3M by 2020, a few already done. About 12 of the total are TU-22MR recon aircrafts.

    ~58 TU-95MS. Standard strategic bomber with up to 20.8 tonnes of ordonance. Same weapons basically as TU-22M. Cruise missiles, nuclear or not, bombs, nuclear or not, etc.  According to russian wiki, up to 96, with 60 in storage, 36 in active service, among which 6 are modernised Tu-95MSM.

    16 TU-160. All will be modernised, so far, only one TU-160M was completed. 4 are supposed training variants, 12 combat bombers. The biggest strategic bomber in service worldwide, up to 45 tonnes of ordonance, usually cruise missiles and nuclear missiles, can be bombs.

    ~24-27 TU-142. Anti-submarine: depth charges, topedoes, mines, bombs, probably also up to 20 tonnes as TU-95MS tonnes (missile carrier capable?), maritime patrol, and I include it there. It's basically identical airframe to Tu-95MS. TU-142M3 modernisation /last version is probably the sole in service, along with recon R / MR or other specialised variants.

    ~40 IL-38. Anti-submarine, roughly same weapons as Tu-142. 5 of those are modernised IL-38N, modernisation up to 28 planes by 2020 is expected. Carries up to 8.4 tonnes of ordonance. Both Tu-142 and IL-38 are dedicated anti-submarine but could also carry more conventional bombing missions.

    All of these aircrafs are way more capable than the H-6 sole chinese bomber. It's almost impossible to know what real number is in service, like for china, so numbers are probably for total available for service + high readiness storage (or reserve for losses).

    Total low: 93+58+16+24+40= 231
    total high: 150+96+16+27+40= 329

    This is uncomparably better than China.


    Strike, attack, bomber:


    ~81-84 SU-34. Total produced. In service 73-76. Quite small variation, reliable numbers. Very sophisticated deep strike aircraft with high maneuverability and good air to air combat capacity. In essence a multirole strike-interdictor usable against ground and maritime targets, if anything else, as a fighter. Can be used for medium carpet-bombing or precision strikes. Up to 12 tonnes of ordonance.

    ~157-388 SU-24M, M2, MR. Strike aircraft, base of russian strike force. 157 is 121 active AF + 36 active naval AF (ru wiki), 302 is 280 AF supposedly active + 22 naval AF (wiki). Up to 388 (both branches) according to SU-24 page (wiki) in 2011, might be credible at this date few SU-34 were in service, and we know that SU-34 replaces SU-24. Many are recon MR variant (up to 79 in 2011). At least 40 are modernised SU-24M2 (2011) but it might be up to 60-80 by now. Various ordonance up to 8 tonnes, precision strikes or carpet bombing.

    ~203-210 SU-25, SU-25SM, SU-25UB, SU-25T, SU-25UTG. Real CAS aircraft that china lacks totally. The SM modernisation improves radically the aircraft, up to 60 SU-25SM are delivered to this date. Goal is 100-130 by 2020. Carries powerful 30mm gun and up to 4.4 tonnes of ordonance.

    total: low: 441, high: 682.

    This is uncomparably better than China.


    Fighters (multirole/fighter-bomber capable or not) and interceptors

    ~9 Sukhoi T-50. Prototypes of the 5th gen fighter, are airworthy and mostly combat capable.

    ~3 MiG-35. Prototypes fully capable, awaiting orders for serial production.

    ~48 SU-35. Most sophisticated and modern russian fighter in service. 48 to be in service by the end of 2015, russian wiki says 38 in service (no date), wiki says 36 in service (july 2015)... So let's say 48.

    ~66 SU-30. Two seater modern and sophisticated multirole fighter (strike capable). 3-4 SU-30, 16 SU-30M2 and 39 SU-30SM in AF + 8 SU-30SM in naval AF as of today (wiki ru), 36 SU-30SM + 8 in naval AF (wiki)... 60 SU-30SM total to be delivered for AF and 30 (or 50) for naval AF by 2016 (end of 2016?).

    ~396-413 SU-27. Most are basic SU-27S (limited multirole) or SU-27P (pure air superiority) variants (~226), there are 52 two seaters SU-27UB as well. 70 were modernised SU-27SM, 12 SM3, by january 2014. One can expect a lot more SM3 are in service now (maybe total of 30 or 40?), SM modernisation is cancelled in favor of SM3. Number gap variation is dictated by conflicting SU-27 numbers of the naval aviation: 36 or 53.

    ~26 SU-33. Carrier based variant of SU-27S. Being upgraded (probably equivalent to SU-27SM3 or even SU-35) and kept for service at least into 2025.

    ~218-580 MiG-29 multirole fighter. 218 is claimed in wiki.ru page of MiG-29 as the 2015 in-service total. 580 is claimed total aircrafts on MiG-29 operators (wiki), of which: "266 with air force plus 110 with navy (150 in reserve, 50 for training)"... Other numbers: List of aircrafts actively operated in russia (wiki): 291, same thing in wiki.ru: 254. All sources agree on about 28-30 modernised MiG-29SMT, + 16 more ordered for 2016, as well as 6 MiG-29UBT 2 seaters, plus "a few" MiG-29M2 in service. All other aircrafts are old models (late production) MiG-29S, or MiG-29UB two seaters. The total number of really combat worthy planes is probably under 200, but for final total numbers I will not speculate and only use those "ideal" numbers.

    ~24 MiG-29K. Multirole fighter carrier based replacement of SU-33. Late 2014 there were 10 fighters and the 4 two seater trainers delivered. Order for 24 total is to be completed by end of 2015, so it's fair to say 24 are "in service".

    ~134-259 MiG-31. Interceptor. Unique aircraft that has no equivalent. Most if not all of those in service are MiG-31B and more and more MiG-31BM modernisations (60, 100, or 130 planed total for 2020), BM delivered so far are at least 34. Early MiG-31 are not supposed to be in service anymore but some may be in storage. 134 (or "120-190" on wiki ru) is the supposed number in active service, while 252-259 is the total number including reserves. This is only for AF because no MiG-31 are used anymore by naval AF.

    Total low (include maximum for unsure "2015 completed" orders like SU-35 or MiG-29K): 924
    Total high: 1428

    It's not much different numbers than for China, and china has many obsolete planes in the equation. I'm too lazy now to calculate the real number of "modern" airplanes in the total, but it's a lot, maybe slightly less than china though. But those "modern" Chinese planes are modern for China, all of the Russian planes above can be described as modern compared to anything China fields.

    Overall for fighters, I'd say China is a bit under Russia as of late 2015. China's J-10 however is a big threat growing fast compared to what Russia does with its airforce.


    Combat capable trainers (light attack):

    ~71 at least, Yak-130. Good solid modern aircraft with up to 3 tonnes of ordonance. More on order.

    ~62-200 Aero L-39. Standard jet trainer with limited attack capacity, 0.25 tonnes of ordonance. 62 is supposed to be current real active number, while 200 might be total available if needed. Being replaced by Yak-130.

    2 seater training variants of MiG-29 or SU-25 or SU-27 are fully combat capable and not included here.

    Total: 132-271.

    Total fixed-wing combat capable aircrafts of Russia: low: 1728, high: 2710.
    Total "modern": ??? almost all if compared with China.

    If this wasn't enough of a proof that Russia has a better airforce, try to recall as well that russia has HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of airplanes in storage that are equivalent or better than MANY active Chinese planes... MiG-23MLD, MiG-27K, SU-17M4, MiG-25PD... and i'm probably missing a few ones.

    This had to be done. Sources: wiki pages english and russian on each aircraft also the list of active aircrafts (eng and rus) of both airforces. Yes it's wiki, and? all numbers in wiki have an external source, if source is wrong or not, who knows.

    Kimppis
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:39 am

    sepheronx wrote:Su-35 is better than J-11D specifically for the fact that Irbis-E radar alone has proven its detection/tracking range to be close to 400km, making it by far the best airborne radar for a fighter jet.  Add to that, it also has sensor fusion as well.  J-11B is an upgraded J-11. It isn't a bad jet but it isn't Su-35.  As well, China has somewhat issues selling its aircrafts abroad and I recall seeing photos of a J-11 (older model of course) that fell apart literally on its own (it was on mp.net).  J-10 seems like a decent fighter and would make a good aircraft for cheap.  But there is a reason why various countries have chosen aircrafts like Su-30 over lets say the Chinese alternative.  Add to that Su-30 Bars-R radar sports over 250km detection/tracking range from estimates, something that is said to be better than what we know of Chinese radar systems.

    A copy is still a copy.  China has some trouble copying engines as was evident for years.  Their AESA technology is purely based upon, as far as I am aware of, off the shelf tech, while Russia's was done from ground up (they had no choice).  Russia has moved to already 15W GaAS modules and possibly future 30W and as well working on GaN modules.  Not much is truly known about the Chinese GaAS/GaN modules but it is assumed to be not as effective (I have read about 10W, which isn't bad of course).  Once again, it doesn't mean it is bad and really I agree they have made great strides, but as well, it is overblown.

    One thing to also remember it isn't just about the radar or radar type itself.  It is how it is powered, cooled and used.  For instance, Su-34's and Su-30SM's have around 15KW of power while Su-35S uses around 20KW of power.  How the system works is power in - power out.  More energy available to the radar, the better results it can have.  In this, the Irbis-E requires a lot of power (Irbis E isn't pesa or aesa but a Hybrid between the two) and requires 20KW of power.  In so, it is what helps provide its massive detection/engagement range.  PAK FA with its N036 radar has apparently similar performance characteristics as Irbis-E but being full AESA instead, still requires the 15 - 20KW of power.  That is supplied through the APU/Generator.  Older Su-27's for instance (J-11 is more based off of the Su-27SKM), didn't have the same amount of power output and I don't think the J-11D does either.  My guess is the J-11D may have similar radar performance of that of Bars-R but better ECM capabilities due to being AESA radar.  MiG-29/35 proved that it has difficulties as it has problems powering its AESA radar thus the performance of the AESA radar Zhuk-A is sub-par compared to the Hybrid radars or the N036.  The AESA GaAS modules from Istok is rated around 5w - 10w and works roughly around 3w due to either power issue or cooling issue, at most in one time and thus with over 1000 T/R modules, has a pitiful detection range of 160km, if that.  

    Su-35 is by far one of the best fighter jets available on the market.  Not too expensive, has best known fighter based radar in terms of raw power, and has quite the suite to it too (integrated AESA L band modules, modern electronic warfare, etc).  But if the Chinese jets were clearly the best option over Russian or equal, they would have sold exports.  So far, JF-17 is the only real Chinese winner in export besides older MiG-21 knockoffs.  The best jet I think China has by far is the J-10 and variants.  It is cheap, but seems to pack a lot of advanced equipment to it.  It is also a none exporter as I believe it holds sensitive technology on it that China isn't prepared to let out.  I know there were countries interested in it but instead ended up with JF-17.  J-11 seems to be a decent jet and acts as China's long range plane while the J-15 is the carrier variant like Su-33 and J-16 is like the Su-30MK2 or dual seater J-11.  Not a bad setup actually.

    Edit: I want to make a correction.  Apparently Bars-M uses roughly 10KW of power not 15W.

    Regarding exports: You know very well that it's not simple. Some could say (and many trolls actually do) that Russian fighters are shit because western first world countries don't buy them. Only poor, evil, third-world countries buy them, because they are cheap and that is their only advantage against tacticool NATO aircraft. Which, of course, is total BS. You know it has all to do with foreign relations, history, traditions and so on... And Russia, the US, and even many Western Europeans countries have massive advantages against China in that regard, so it's not a fair comparison, yet. We shall see we are they are 10 or 15 years from now on.

    I lack expertise to really argue against many of your other points, but at the same time I don't see any reason to disagree with many of them anyway. China is also secretive about it's military technology, so information is comparatively scarce. Not to mention that there's absolutely massive language barrier. Overall, I find no reason to believe that there are huge differences in quality between new Russian and Chinese fighters.  

    cracker wrote:Ok here's a comprehensive list of combat aircrafts (in service, active or high readiness storage) of both air forces.... Tell me which is stronger.

    note: J-16 comparable to SU-34??? J-16 is barely a two seater multirole SU-27 like SU-30SM but worse. It's basically a SU-30MKK improved and with chinese components instead of russian. SU-34 has no equivalent in China AF. Not in any AF as a matter of fact.


    China, AF+navalAF ("+" means there are probably a few more planes because data is from 2014)

    Bombers:

    ~134-170 Xian H-6. This is a copy of the soviet TU-16, retired of RUAF in 1993. H-6 is mostly used in modernised variants, as a missile carrier, and its bomb load of 9 tonnes is poor (theorical up to 12 tonnes should be possible as some Tu-16 variants did). Refueling or other non combat variants exist. This is the sole strategic bomber of China.

    total: 134-170
    total modern: 0


    Attack-strike

    ~240 Xian JH-7. This is the most sophisticated attack aircraft of China. It can carry also up to 9 tonnes of ordnonance (but unlike H-6, it must use drop tanks, reducing real playload to 7-8 tonnes). It's a fast flying brick without variable sweep wings. I don't know any directly comparable russian airplane. But the Su-24 is probably the most comparable. Su-24 is a bomber, accurate and slower, the JH-7 is like a fighter bomber with dive attack pattern for the most part. I'd say it looks and works like a bomber-mission F-4 phantom.

    ~150 Nanchang Q-5. This airplane is old and carries a ridiculously small playload (2 tonnes)... It is based on MiG-19 (1950s fighter). Comparable at most to SU-7B and early SU-17... Both of which where retired by the 1980s in soviet airforce (latest SU-17 modernisations before 2000)... Its mission is supposed to be CAS like SU-25, but it doesn't come close to the SU-25 performance at all.

    total: ~390
    total modern: ~240


    Fighters (multirole/fighter-bomber capable or not) and interceptors

    1 prototype Shenyang J-31 5th gen fighter, probably combat capable.

    7 prototypes Chengdu J-20 5th gen fighter, probably combat capable.

    ~59-76 SU-27SK and SU-27UBK. K denotes export variant. Are basic SU-27(improved SU-27S) exported to China. Nothing special to say, they are no worse (maybe a little) nor better than current basic SU-27S/SU-27P in service with RUAF.

    ~269+(probably up to 280 at this date) J-11, J-15, J-16 fighters. J-15 is a carrier variant of the J-11, like SU-33. J-16 is a two seat multirole like SU-30MKK, Mk2, M2, SM (SM being better in every respect of the SU-30 family), strike capable. J-11B is the most common variant of J-11 and is like SU-27SM more or less, a modernised variant. Earlier J-11 (that make about 35-40% of whole J-11 family) are basically just SU-27 with chinese manufactured components, so, indigenous but not necessarily better than SU-27 (SU-27S). Total modern of the family, maybe 160-170.

    ~97 SU-30MKK, MK2. Nothing special to say, SU-30 is one of the best multirole fighters on earth and china has nearly 100 of them.

    ~274+(probably 290 at this date) Chengdu J-10. Light multirole delta-wing fighter. Roughly comparable to F-16, Gripen, mirage 2000, less so to Typhoon, F-18, Rafale. Most comparable russian plane: MiG-29. Comparable technology/modern russian plane: MiG-29SMT, MiG-35 (soon to be adopted, and will be more advanced than J-10). Nothing special to say, a good aircraft if you believe Chinese claims. Its sole really indigenous modern aircraft.

    ~240 (as of 2015 maybe 200 total) Shenyang J-8. Interceptor comparable to SU-9/SU-11 and early SU-15 for early variants and to SU-15TM for late variants. A bit comparable to MiG-23P (ML, MLD) as well. MiG-23 and SU-15TM are more advanced in many ways. Introduced in 1980 (earliest variant) when USSR already had Mig-25 and was introducing MiG-31, both of which replaced SU-15 for most critical interception missions. Nothing special to say, it's an old but decent aircraft. More than 44 are recon variants.

    ~460-558 Chengdu J-7. Real number in service may be much lower. Mig-21 copy... nothing else to say. Variants in service are most modern variations equivalent to MiG-21Bis probably, and some trainer variants too. This aircraft is just kept in service to maintain high numbers and have a reserve, until more and more modern planes are accepted to replace them.

    total (low): 1367
    total (high, hypothetical): 1549
    Note: some are recon/trainer variants, not really combat capable.

    total "modern" (vague low estimation): 274(if we consider all J-10 including early J-10 as modern)+97(SU-30)+160(if you consider all J-11B, J-15, J-16 as modern, but earlier J-11 as not)= 539
    High estimation: 290(total J-10 in service by late 2015 estimation)+97(SU-30)+280(total J-11 family included, with 280 as estimated total produced by late 2015, very unreliable number)= 675

    So it looks impressive, but none of these fighters is as good as the SU-35S and SU-30SM. Most modern fighters of china are probably as good as SU-27SM3 and MiG-29SMT and SU-30M2.


    Combat capable trainers (light attack):

    ~190-362 Hongdu JL-8. Basic trainer similar to Aero L-39. Up to 1 tonne of ordonance and a 23mm gun pod. Planed to be replaced, see below.

    ~at least 12 Hongdu L-15. New generation similar to Yak-130.

    >12 Guizhou JL-9. Not really in service, maybe to naval aviation, alternative (cheaper) to L-15.

    ~40-200 (200 might be total produced, so 40 is more likely and will be used in total number) JJ-7. Training variant of J-7 (MiG-21), already included in the fighter numbers. They are combat capable similar to standard J-7.

    ~20 JJ-5 and JJ-6. Leftover totally obsolete trainer variants of J-5 and J-6 (mig-17/19)... Appently still used in naval AF.

    Total low: 190+12+12+40+20= 274
    Total high: 362+12+12+40+20= 446

    Total fixed-wing combat capable aircrafts of China: low: 2165, high: 2555.
    Total "modern" (trainers included): low: 803, high: 939.



    Russia, AF + naval AF.

    Bombers:


    ~93 TU-22M3, MR, M3M. Maybe up to 58 more (naval aviation supposedly all transferred to AF by 2011). Strategic bomber with up to 24 tonnes of ordonance. Missile carrier, nuclear bomber, conventional bomber. No equivalent in China. According to russian wiki, 150 total with only 41 in service. 30 to be upgraded M3M by 2020, a few already done. About 12 of the total are TU-22MR recon aircrafts.

    ~58 TU-95MS. Standard strategic bomber with up to 20.8 tonnes of ordonance. Same weapons basically as TU-22M. Cruise missiles, nuclear or not, bombs, nuclear or not, etc.  According to russian wiki, up to 96, with 60 in storage, 36 in active service, among which 6 are modernised Tu-95MSM.

    16 TU-160. All will be modernised, so far, only one TU-160M was completed. 4 are supposed training variants, 12 combat bombers. The biggest strategic bomber in service worldwide, up to 45 tonnes of ordonance, usually cruise missiles and nuclear missiles, can be bombs.

    ~24-27 TU-142. Anti-submarine: depth charges, topedoes, mines, bombs, probably also up to 20 tonnes as TU-95MS tonnes (missile carrier capable?), maritime patrol, and I include it there. It's basically identical airframe to Tu-95MS. TU-142M3 modernisation /last version is probably the sole in service, along with recon R / MR or other specialised variants.

    ~40 IL-38. Anti-submarine, roughly same weapons as Tu-142. 5 of those are modernised IL-38N, modernisation up to 28 planes by 2020 is expected. Carries up to 8.4 tonnes of ordonance. Both Tu-142 and IL-38 are dedicated anti-submarine but could also carry more conventional bombing missions.

    All of these aircrafs are way more capable than the H-6 sole chinese bomber. It's almost impossible to know what real number is in service, like for china, so numbers are probably for total available for service + high readiness storage (or reserve for losses).

    Total low: 93+58+16+24+40= 231
    total high: 150+96+16+27+40= 329

    This is uncomparably better than China.


    Strike, attack, bomber:


    ~81-84 SU-34. Total produced. In service 73-76. Quite small variation, reliable numbers. Very sophisticated deep strike aircraft with high maneuverability and good air to air combat capacity. In essence a multirole strike-interdictor usable against ground and maritime targets, if anything else, as a fighter. Can be used for medium carpet-bombing or precision strikes. Up to 12 tonnes of ordonance.

    ~157-388 SU-24M, M2, MR. Strike aircraft, base of russian strike force. 157 is 121 active AF + 36 active naval AF (ru wiki), 302 is 280 AF supposedly active + 22 naval AF (wiki). Up to 388 (both branches) according to SU-24 page (wiki) in 2011, might be credible at this date few SU-34 were in service, and we know that SU-34 replaces SU-24. Many are recon MR variant (up to 79 in 2011). At least 40 are modernised SU-24M2 (2011) but it might be up to 60-80 by now. Various ordonance up to 8 tonnes, precision strikes or carpet bombing.

    ~203-210 SU-25, SU-25SM, SU-25UB, SU-25T, SU-25UTG. Real CAS aircraft that china lacks totally. The SM modernisation improves radically the aircraft, up to 60 SU-25SM are delivered to this date. Goal is 100-130 by 2020. Carries powerful 30mm gun and up to 4.4 tonnes of ordonance.

    total: low: 441, high: 682.

    This is uncomparably better than China.


    Fighters (multirole/fighter-bomber capable or not) and interceptors

    ~9 Sukhoi T-50. Prototypes of the 5th gen fighter, are airworthy and mostly combat capable.

    ~3 MiG-35. Prototypes fully capable, awaiting orders for serial production.

    ~48 SU-35. Most sophisticated and modern russian fighter in service. 48 to be in service by the end of 2015, russian wiki says 38 in service (no date), wiki says 36 in service (july 2015)... So let's say 48.

    ~66 SU-30. Two seater modern and sophisticated multirole fighter (strike capable). 3-4 SU-30, 16 SU-30M2 and 39 SU-30SM in AF + 8 SU-30SM in naval AF as of today (wiki ru), 36 SU-30SM + 8 in naval AF (wiki)... 60 SU-30SM total to be delivered for AF and 30 (or 50) for naval AF by 2016 (end of 2016?).

    ~396-413 SU-27. Most are basic SU-27S (limited multirole) or SU-27P (pure air superiority) variants (~226), there are 52 two seaters SU-27UB as well. 70 were modernised SU-27SM, 12 SM3, by january 2014. One can expect a lot more SM3 are in service now (maybe total of 30 or 40?), SM modernisation is cancelled in favor of SM3. Number gap variation is dictated by conflicting SU-27 numbers of the naval aviation: 36 or 53.

    ~26 SU-33. Carrier based variant of SU-27S. Being upgraded (probably equivalent to SU-27SM3 or even SU-35) and kept for service at least into 2025.

    ~218-580 MiG-29 multirole fighter. 218 is claimed in wiki.ru page of MiG-29 as the 2015 in-service total. 580 is claimed total aircrafts on MiG-29 operators (wiki), of which: "266 with air force plus 110 with navy (150 in reserve, 50 for training)"... Other numbers: List of aircrafts actively operated in russia (wiki): 291, same thing in wiki.ru: 254. All sources agree on about 28-30 modernised MiG-29SMT, + 16 more ordered for 2016, as well as 6 MiG-29UBT 2 seaters, plus "a few" MiG-29M2 in service. All other aircrafts are old models (late production) MiG-29S, or MiG-29UB two seaters. The total number of really combat worthy planes is probably under 200, but for final total numbers I will not speculate and only use those "ideal" numbers.

    ~24 MiG-29K. Multirole fighter carrier based replacement of SU-33. Late 2014 there were 10 fighters and the 4 two seater trainers delivered. Order for 24 total is to be completed by end of 2015, so it's fair to say 24 are "in service".

    ~134-259 MiG-31. Interceptor. Unique aircraft that has no equivalent. Most if not all of those in service are MiG-31B and more and more MiG-31BM modernisations (60, 100, or 130 planed total for 2020), BM delivered so far are at least 34. Early MiG-31 are not supposed to be in service anymore but some may be in storage. 134 (or "120-190" on wiki ru) is the supposed number in active service, while 252-259 is the total number including reserves. This is only for AF because no MiG-31 are used anymore by naval AF.

    Total low (include maximum for unsure "2015 completed" orders like SU-35 or MiG-29K): 924
    Total high: 1428

    It's not much different numbers than for China, and china has many obsolete planes in the equation. I'm too lazy now to calculate the real number of "modern" airplanes in the total, but it's a lot, maybe slightly less than china though. But those "modern" Chinese planes are modern for China, all of the Russian planes above can be described as modern compared to anything China fields.

    Overall for fighters, I'd say China is a bit under Russia as of late 2015. China's J-10 however is a big threat growing fast compared to what Russia does with its airforce.


    Combat capable trainers (light attack):

    ~71 at least, Yak-130. Good solid modern aircraft with up to 3 tonnes of ordonance. More on order.

    ~62-200 Aero L-39. Standard jet trainer with limited attack capacity, 0.25 tonnes of ordonance. 62 is supposed to be current real active number, while 200 might be total available if needed. Being replaced by Yak-130.

    2 seater training variants of MiG-29 or SU-25 or SU-27 are fully combat capable and not included here.

    Total: 132-271.

    Total fixed-wing combat capable aircrafts of Russia: low: 1728, high: 2710.
    Total "modern": ??? almost all if compared with China.

    If this wasn't enough of a proof that Russia has a better airforce, try to recall as well that russia has HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of airplanes in storage that are equivalent or better than MANY active Chinese planes... MiG-23MLD, MiG-27K, SU-17M4, MiG-25PD... and i'm probably missing a few ones.

    This had to be done. Sources: wiki pages english and russian on each aircraft also the list of active aircrafts (eng and rus) of both airforces. Yes it's wiki, and? all numbers in wiki have an external source, if source is wrong or not, who knows.

    Those numbers seem about right.

    Some issues:

    I'd say that the upgraded H-6s are atleast... "semi-modern". They have maybe around a few dozen of them.
    It also seems that they are currently designing two bombers: shorter range H-18, first flight probably before 2020 and H-20, flying wing, firstly flight before 2025.

    And indeed, your data is from 2014, so you can some J-10s (apparently they finished around 50 J-10Bs), J-11, J-16 (probably atleast 24 have been built) and J-15s (around 15).

    If you are going to count earlier Russian 4th gens as modern then you shold do the same with Chinese aircraft. Also, I think I've read that some of the older J-11s have already been upgraded, or atleast they are planning to do that.

    You also seem to exaggerate the number of Russian aircraft in service. There are no 400 Su-24, or 400 Flankers or 500 MIG-29s in active service. The numbers have decreased. There are maybe 200 Su-24, 300 older Flankers and 300 MIG-29 (probably slightly less) in service.  

    And un-upgraded Su-24s and Su-25s are certainly not modern by Chinese standards (and yes I know that Q-5 is shit, but it seems that the Chinese are not planning to design a new CAS aircraft. They are probably going to replace the remaining Q-5s with J-16 and JH-7B). And should those aircraft that are in storage even count in anyway? There's no way that they're in a good condition. Not to mention that many older variants of Flankers, MIG-29s and so on were probably badly maintained during the late 90s and 2000s. Compare that to China: even the oldest J-10s and J-11s are reasonably new and will probably stay in service for quite some time.

    So overall, I'd say that the fighter fleets are quite comparable as of 2015, while Russian airforce enjoys certain advantages: in bombers and transports in particular. It seems we all can atleast agree about that, more or less. However, China's economic prowess will enable it to overtake the Russians in many ways by 2020, and certainly by 2025.

    sepheronx
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    Re: China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:55 am

    The numbers are also overexaggerated in China too.  How many of their planes are spares and hanger queens and such?  The point is, majority of China's airforce is obsolete as well.  Actually, most airforces are excluding ones like Saudi Arabia who only spends on military.

    Kimppis
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    China's PLA vs Russian Armed Forces comparison

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:26 am

    sepheronx wrote:The numbers are also overexaggerated in China too.  How many of their planes are spares and hanger queens and such?  The point is, majority of China's airforce is obsolete as well.  Actually, most airforces are excluding ones like Saudi Arabia who only spends on military.

    I wasn't really saying that the current number of active aircraft in the RuAF is exaggerated, a number that I just saw mentioned on this very forum a while ago. So at most, something like like 300 Flankers, 200-300 MIG-29s, 100+ MIG-31s. I just criticized Cracker's high-end figure.

    Here: http://www.russiadefence.net/t3912p75-russian-air-force-numbers-and-procurement-plans

    Certainly no one should think that China has 1500 modern fighters in service right now, that would be an exaggeration, yes. That said, I think the number of 4th gen aircraft (around 700) is accurate and sounds reasonable, especially when you consider that the airframes are quite new (even the oldest J-10s and J-11s, as I mentioned earlier).

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