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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:55 am

    No words....just no words
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:56 am

    Who gives a fuck if it is having problems with its propulsion... it must be put in service immediately and it is all of Russias fault.

    When its specs were created it was a different time and since then things have changed and this vessel has not adapted with the changes so eventually it will be completed and go into service but it may never be used for anything except training.

    So propulsion problems... so who is incompetent... who do we hang for this transgression?

    No words....just no words

    Nice change. Razz

    But surely now you have specific targets for your bleating... you can isolate the propulsion makers for the sabotaging of this critical piece of weaponry that was to save the Russian Empire.. bastards.

    Of course... fault finding and testing should be banned completely as time wasters and it should be put straight into service... sort it out there.

    Sorry, I am putting words in your mouth... you go ahead and have a whinge (a moan).


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Who gives a fuck if it is having problems with its propulsion... it must be put in service immediately and it is all of Russias fault.

    When its specs were created it was a different time and since then things have changed and this vessel has not adapted with the changes so eventually it will be completed and go into service but it may never be used for anything except training.

    So propulsion problems... so who is incompetent... who do we hang for this transgression?

    No words....just no words

    Nice change. Razz

    But surely now you have specific targets for your bleating... you can isolate the propulsion makers for the sabotaging of this critical piece of weaponry that was to save the Russian Empire.. bastards.

    Of course... fault finding and testing should be banned completely as time wasters and it should be put straight into service... sort it out there.

    Sorry, I am putting words in your mouth... you go ahead and have a whinge (a moan).

    Sorry bruh got no time for fanboys who like to jack it at the name of Russia.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:18 am

    George1 wrote:Pr.11711 large landing ship Ivan Gren (135) is having issues with its astern propulsion. MoD trials have been suspended until the end of January 2018.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/287567/


    There is a mistake. They probably wanted to say January 8102 lol1


    Last edited by Isos on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Who gives a fuck if it is having problems with its propulsion... it must be put in service immediately and it is all of Russias fault.

    When its specs were created it was a different time and since then things have changed and this vessel has not adapted with the changes so eventually it will be completed and go into service but it may never be used for anything except training.

    So propulsion problems... so who is incompetent... who do we hang for this transgression?

    No words....just no words

    Nice change. Razz

    But surely now you have specific targets for your bleating... you can isolate the propulsion makers for the sabotaging of this critical piece of weaponry that was to save the Russian Empire.. bastards.

    Of course... fault finding and testing should be banned completely as time wasters and it should be put straight into service... sort it out there.

    Sorry, I am putting words in your mouth... you go ahead and have a whinge (a moan).

    I think you are right concerning the fact that it was designed in a different time by other people so it's kinda hard to finish work of others. Now they have the same people wirking on the design, construction and test so new vessel won't have those issues.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:20 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Who gives a fuck if it is having problems with its propulsion... it must be put in service immediately and it is all of Russias fault.

    When its specs were created it was a different time and since then things have changed and this vessel has not adapted with the changes so eventually it will be completed and go into service but it may never be used for anything except training.

    So propulsion problems... so who is incompetent... who do we hang for this transgression?

    No words....just no words

    Nice change. Razz

    But surely now you have specific targets for your bleating... you can isolate the propulsion makers for the sabotaging of this critical piece of weaponry that was to save the Russian Empire.. bastards.

    Of course... fault finding and testing should be banned completely as time wasters and it should be put straight into service... sort it out there.

    Sorry, I am putting words in your mouth... you go ahead and have a whinge (a moan).

    I think you are right concerning the fact that it was designed in a different time by other people so it's kinda hard to finish work of others. Now they have the same people wirking on the design, construction and test so new vessel won't have those issues.

    LoL if they told someone who never had any experience in ship construction sure, however they did this excuse is stupid. IT's just Garry defending Russia because it's Russia and trying to make up any excuse to justify it.
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    runaway

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    Propulsion

    Post  runaway on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:34 pm

    There is no need to get excited, its just trouble with propulsion. We all know this ships long time of idle building status and so on, now it seems its almost ready except for minor trouble with propulsion.
    We also know they built these 6 kilo subs and 3 frigates for the BSF in good time. But with sanctions and low oil price they have had to make priorities, so I say again, nothing to get excited for.
    The ship will be transferred to Navy when the Navy is satisfied it works 100%, nothing strange.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:19 pm

    LoL if they told someone who never had any experience in ship construction sure, however they did this excuse is stupid. IT's just Garry defending Russia because it's Russia and trying to make up any excuse to justify it.

    Well from the 90s to the 00s they were in hard times so probably many engineers went away and since Putin came new workers had to gain experience. It's quite hard to build new ships not just for Russia, look at the news for the german new frigate ...

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:17 pm

    Isos wrote:
    LoL if they told someone who never had any experience in ship construction sure, however they did this excuse is stupid. IT's just Garry defending Russia because it's Russia and trying to make up any excuse to justify it.

    Well from the 90s to the 00s they were in hard times so probably many engineers went away and since Putin came new workers had to gain experience. It's quite hard to build new ships not just for Russia, look at the news for the german new frigate ...


    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.
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    Luq man

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Luq man on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:09 pm

    Ivan Gren Landing Ship: No Hope to Join Navy before March Due to Reverse-Run Problems, Insider Says

    Project 11711 landing ship Ivan Gren being constructed at the Yantar Shipyard (Kaliningrad, Russia) cannot be handed over to the Russian Navy because of the back draught problems; the tests are suspended till the month end, a well-aware insider told Mil.Today. According to him, the ship will take sea at the end of January.
    The problems of reverse run are the only thing hindering the ship’s commissioning into the Russian Navy, which was planned back in December 2017, the expert said.
    A source in the Navy told Mil.Today that the decision to postpone the ship’s handover had been made by the scientific council of the Naval Academy on December 26.

    The ship "appeared to have seven serious problems to be resolved, some on papers, some upon follow-up revision", the insider added. The break in the ship’s trials was personally declared by the head of the state commission. The next session was scheduled on February 1, and then the decisions will be analyzed and signed

    "Well, the ship could have been commissioned in December, but the navy plays safe to avoid future problems. Gren did have certain problems of seaworthiness and stability in the past, but they were fixed then. The only issue remained is backward run steerage", he said.
    Press service of the Yantar Shipyard refused to answer the Mil.Today’s questions. Russian Navy’s spokesman, Capt 1 Rank Igor Dygalo failed to pick up the phone either.

    The ship’s diesel engine, D1049, was made by the Kolomensky Zavod. It is connected to the screw via reduction gear produced by Zvezda PJSC. According to the Kolomensky Zavod’s officials, they are not aware of any problems regarding the engine. "Thus, the issue is either about reduction gear or the failure is non-fatal and can be fixed", another expert told Mil.Today.
    Press service of Zvezda PJSC could not give any prompt comments; the company’s director Pavel Plavnik was inaccessible. Later, on January 17, Zvezda’s spokesman reported there were no problems with the reduction gear.

    "Some problems are connected only with the reverse speed", Sergey Vlasov, director of Nevskoye Design Bureau that developed the ship’s project shared with Mil.Today

    An insider at a Russian design office harshly criticized navigability of Ivan Gren and discredited the need for serial production of these ships. As for him, the project was designed for the ‘river-sea’ zones to redeploy landing parties between different theaters, and the ship’s dimensions initially corresponded to parameters of the Volga-Don Canal locks and clearance of bridges.
    "Project 11711 was meant to replace the small-size obsolete Project 775 landing ships, it was literally whomped up", said the shipbuilder. "When the ‘river-sea’ condition was lifted, they made the ship’s deck structure larger. This and other alterations negatively affected the hull stability", the expert concluded.
    http://mil.today/2018/Weapons3/
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:16 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    LoL if they told someone who never had any experience in ship construction sure, however they did this excuse is stupid. IT's just Garry defending Russia because it's Russia and trying to make up any excuse to justify it.

    Well from the 90s to the 00s they were in hard times so probably many engineers went away and since Putin came new workers had to gain experience. It's quite hard to build new ships not just for Russia, look at the news for the german new frigate ...


    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.

    I was trying to say that even german shipyard, which are known for their quality and all the experience they have, have made a ship that was not good. So we can't expect Russia to build correctly a ship designed than 20 years ago to be good but for ships designed now by the same persons that will make the test, the situation should be better.

    But if it it's the same with new ships, they should close the shipyards ...

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 pm

    runaway wrote:There is no need to get excited, its just trouble with propulsion. We all know this ships long time of idle building status and so on, now it seems its almost ready except for minor trouble with propulsion.
    We also know they built these 6 kilo subs and 3 frigates for the BSF in good time. But with sanctions and low oil price they have had to make priorities, so I say again, nothing to get excited for.
    The ship will be transferred to Navy when the Navy is satisfied it works 100%, nothing strange.

    Actually, if the issues are related to reversing propulsion, that means some trouble with the reduction gear.

    If there is any fault in it, even if limited to the reversing function, it won't be easy to solve without taking it out and either deeply modifying it or in the worst case replacing it with a revised version.

    Reduction gears are made of high precision mechanisms, and any problem with them result always in a great headache
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:41 pm


    I still think that they should should just order civilian RoRos in bulk from South Korea and tweak them.

    Large helipad, radar, comms, maybe CIWS and Paket-M and roll with it.

    Worked in Syria.

    Focus on LHDs in the meantime...

    marat

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:57 pm

    runaway wrote:There is no need to get excited, its just trouble with propulsion. We all know this ships long time of idle building status and so on, now it seems its almost ready except for minor trouble with propulsion.
    We also know they built these 6 kilo subs and 3 frigates for the BSF in good time. But with sanctions and low oil price they have had to make priorities, so I say again, nothing to get excited for.
    The ship will be transferred to Navy when the Navy is satisfied it works 100%, nothing strange.

    Well there ara a lot of reasons to be mad.
    Millions of good dollars were spent on ship which will be at half of his lifetime when accepted in service.

    That money surely could be spent much much better in military or in civilian project that would get benefits to Russia.

    All that stupid comments that all bugs have to be find and solved before ship is put in service can not denie fact that this project is just sinkhole for good resources.

    And Russia have no too much money to throw them just like that.

    And yes this is a good example how deep problems are in Russian shipbuilding industry. And some clowns are calling for 100.000T carriers while 8.000t landing ship is to big challenge.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:03 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:More red meat for the Gren-ophobes!   Twisted Evil

    So member who are mad becouse this ( simple landing ship) cannot be build in 11 years are gren-phobes?

    So gren-philes would be those members which would be happy if this ship will be on testing stage for end of the time i guess? scratch
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:58 pm

    marat wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:More red meat for the Gren-ophobes!   Twisted Evil

    So member who are mad becouse this ( simple landing ship) cannot be build in 11 years are gren-phobes?

    Oh grow up...  the Gren is a victim of shifting priorities, lack of urgency, and a corresponding limited allocated resources.  We don't need to carry on like the sky is falling over one unloved tank landing ship...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:24 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:More red meat for the Gren-ophobes!   Twisted Evil

    So member who are mad becouse this ( simple landing ship) cannot be build in 11 years are gren-phobes?

    Oh grow up...  the Gren is a victim of shifting priorities, lack of urgency, and a corresponding limited allocated resources.  We don't need to carry on like the sky is falling over one unloved tank landing ship...

    Sky wouldnt fall even if Russia would lose its whole fleet ( as happened several times in last 100 or so years) but that is not excuse.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:27 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I still think that they should should just order civilian RoRos in bulk from South Korea and tweak them.

    Large helipad, radar, comms, maybe CIWS and Paket-M and roll with it.

    Worked in Syria.

    Focus on LHDs in the meantime...

    They can simply just build a shipping vessel which they built plenty (large ones too) and just have at her with various systems.  Also works.  Don't know why they don't bother with that.

    Since beginning with this stupid ship, they had no idea what they wanted. It was a project set during a time when they didn't have proper funds for it, and no one had an iota of an idea of what to do.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:46 am

    "Project 11711 was meant to replace the small-size obsolete Project 775 landing ships, it was literally whomped up", said the shipbuilder. "When the ‘river-sea’ condition was lifted, they made the ship’s deck structure larger. This and other alterations negatively affected the hull stability", the expert concluded.

    So it was supposed to be a smaller vessel to replace a small vessel for mostly river work.... they obviously changed the requirements and changed the design effecting stability which needed to be addressed.

    There are still faults with it and they are waiting until they are sorted out before accepting it into service... a dogs are barking but everything continues as normal.

    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.

    Jesus... what a piece of crap that thing is... a 130mm gun equivalent... and 8 harpoon missiles!!! what a piece of crap... Russian Corvettes have better armament for christs sake... 12.7mm calibre MGs and two 27mm cannon and Sea RAM... what a freaken joke a 1000 ton boat could carry heavier armament...

    What is in this ship needing 4 years to make?

    Soviet Frigates from the 1980s are better armed than this piece of crap.

    All that stupid comments that all bugs have to be find and solved before ship is put in service can not denie fact that this project is just sinkhole for good resources.

    It is clearly your fault because you saw exactly what was going to happen and you kept your mouth shut... WTF didn't you warn them that the French were censored and could not be trusted... you should have told them what the price of oil was going to do and that the Ukraine were going to be a pain in the ass and then they would have not wasted a cent... you know.... the way the west is so careful with its money and doesn't waste anything...

    And yes this is a good example how deep problems are in Russian shipbuilding industry. And some clowns are calling for 100.000T carriers while 8.000t landing ship is to big challenge.

    If you were even paying attention you would realise the problem is not building an 8Kton landing ship... it is making a small river based landing ship into a sea going one by modifying the former to become the latter.

    Sky wouldnt fall even if Russia would lose its whole fleet ( as happened several times in last 100 or so years) but that is not excuse.

    Of course... all of Russia is at fault and they should be punished.



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    runaway

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:58 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Oh grow up...  the Gren is a victim of shifting priorities, lack of urgency, and a corresponding limited allocated resources.  We don't need to carry on like the sky is falling over one unloved tank landing ship...

    I fully agree.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.

    Jesus... what a piece of crap that thing is... a 130mm gun equivalent... and 8 harpoon missiles!!! what a piece of crap... Russian Corvettes have better armament for christs sake... 12.7mm calibre MGs and two 27mm cannon and Sea RAM... what a freaken joke a 1000 ton boat could carry heavier armament...

    What is in this ship needing 4 years to make?

    Soviet Frigates from the 1980s are better armed than this piece of crap.



    It's off topic, but anyway:

    Weapons/displacement ratio has no meaning, nor it will never have.

    Weapons embarked are a function of the missions envisaged, displacement is a function of the missions envisaged.

    Taking a look to Baden-Wüttenberg's requirements, they are really demanding technically and the fairly large displacement is what it takes to get such requirements fulfilled.

    Weapon systems are those required for the missions, the real fault many recognize in Baden-WÜttenberg, and I too share that opinion, is the lack of a credible medium range AAW.

    Arming to the teeth ships has little value. Still flexibility is always a real plus.

    Baden-Wüttenberg's displacement and enormous endurance are partially wasted because it is too far specialized, while it could easily switch to the land attack role, and the Deutsche Marine is just starting to acquire land attack cruise missiles, the lack of a medium range SAM means it will have to be heavily escorted without adding any capabilities on its own in AAW's realm.

    It would have taken just to add one single Mk. 41 VLS to have a 32 ESSM capacity, not a huge burden for a 7000 tons vessel.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:11 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Stop fighting.
    You children don't have a clue on why the Navy GlavKomand wants to do more tests on the Ivan Gren.

    By the way, I have information that the Yantar shipyard in Kalininigrad is getting ready to launch the second unit of the class (Peter Morgunov) soon.

    Stay tuned.

    Neutron torpedos needed some tweaking thats all.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:16 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    runaway wrote:There is no need to get excited, its just trouble with propulsion. We all know this ships long time of idle building status and so on, now it seems its almost ready except for minor trouble with propulsion.
    We also know they built these 6 kilo subs and 3 frigates for the BSF in good time. But with sanctions and low oil price they have had to make priorities, so I say again, nothing to get excited for.
    The ship will be transferred to Navy when the Navy is satisfied it works 100%, nothing strange.

    Actually, if the issues are related to reversing propulsion, that means some trouble with the reduction gear.

    If there is any fault in it, even if limited to the reversing function, it won't be easy to solve without taking it out and either deeply modifying it or in the worst case replacing it with a revised version.

    Reduction gears are made of high precision mechanisms, and any problem with them result always in a great headache

    This is extremely worrying. So those shitty reduction gears will delay the ship by another year judging by the time it takes for russians to fix precision machinery.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:31 am

    Oh my, non-descript propulsion problems. This is the end of Russia.

    Meanwhile, the latest and greatest British aircraft carrier throws a screw blade and suffers major damage to the propulsion assembly.
    Nothing to see here, move along. Unlike the Russian junk, this masterpiece is "deployed".

    Wanker trolls are a laugh riot.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:47 am

    That was the french Charles de Gaulle carrier, that started its career employing a set of reserve screws coming from the old Foch, either as a cost saving measure or because intended purpose built screws were not yet financed/ready.

    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    Sometimes I suspect It was only to buy consensus by local workforce and citizens, but if that is the case, Kremlin and the Navy should start giving the finger to some workforce, its managers and local communities.

    Just look at Pella or Transas, Russia has people and companies able to compete in the market and to provide modern products on time and on budget.

    Start killing old companies and lay off just everybody, the let some new and efficient Company to step in and give It total freedom to choose whether and whom/what to save.
    And give It total protection from any possibile pressure, being It political, social or criminal.

    The message sent countrywide should be clear and loud: political ties and political opportunity/convenience have a meaning just as long as performances are delivered.

    If you, as managers, as workforce and as communities are unable to deliver the performances, no political support will save you from the kill's list.

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