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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:27 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I still think that they should should just order civilian RoRos in bulk from South Korea and tweak them.

    Large helipad, radar, comms, maybe CIWS and Paket-M and roll with it.

    Worked in Syria.

    Focus on LHDs in the meantime...

    They can simply just build a shipping vessel which they built plenty (large ones too) and just have at her with various systems.  Also works.  Don't know why they don't bother with that.

    Since beginning with this stupid ship, they had no idea what they wanted. It was a project set during a time when they didn't have proper funds for it, and no one had an iota of an idea of what to do.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:46 am

    "Project 11711 was meant to replace the small-size obsolete Project 775 landing ships, it was literally whomped up", said the shipbuilder. "When the ‘river-sea’ condition was lifted, they made the ship’s deck structure larger. This and other alterations negatively affected the hull stability", the expert concluded.

    So it was supposed to be a smaller vessel to replace a small vessel for mostly river work.... they obviously changed the requirements and changed the design effecting stability which needed to be addressed.

    There are still faults with it and they are waiting until they are sorted out before accepting it into service... a dogs are barking but everything continues as normal.

    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.

    Jesus... what a piece of crap that thing is... a 130mm gun equivalent... and 8 harpoon missiles!!! what a piece of crap... Russian Corvettes have better armament for christs sake... 12.7mm calibre MGs and two 27mm cannon and Sea RAM... what a freaken joke a 1000 ton boat could carry heavier armament...

    What is in this ship needing 4 years to make?

    Soviet Frigates from the 1980s are better armed than this piece of crap.

    All that stupid comments that all bugs have to be find and solved before ship is put in service can not denie fact that this project is just sinkhole for good resources.

    It is clearly your fault because you saw exactly what was going to happen and you kept your mouth shut... WTF didn't you warn them that the French were censored and could not be trusted... you should have told them what the price of oil was going to do and that the Ukraine were going to be a pain in the ass and then they would have not wasted a cent... you know.... the way the west is so careful with its money and doesn't waste anything...

    And yes this is a good example how deep problems are in Russian shipbuilding industry. And some clowns are calling for 100.000T carriers while 8.000t landing ship is to big challenge.

    If you were even paying attention you would realise the problem is not building an 8Kton landing ship... it is making a small river based landing ship into a sea going one by modifying the former to become the latter.

    Sky wouldnt fall even if Russia would lose its whole fleet ( as happened several times in last 100 or so years) but that is not excuse.

    Of course... all of Russia is at fault and they should be punished.

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    runaway

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:58 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Oh grow up...  the Gren is a victim of shifting priorities, lack of urgency, and a corresponding limited allocated resources.  We don't need to carry on like the sky is falling over one unloved tank landing ship...

    I fully agree.


    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Württemberg-class frigate's are closer to the size of DD's then Frigates at the tonnage of 7-8K.

    The build time of four years is quite good for a ship of that size.

    Jesus... what a piece of crap that thing is... a 130mm gun equivalent... and 8 harpoon missiles!!! what a piece of crap... Russian Corvettes have better armament for christs sake... 12.7mm calibre MGs and two 27mm cannon and Sea RAM... what a freaken joke a 1000 ton boat could carry heavier armament...

    What is in this ship needing 4 years to make?

    Soviet Frigates from the 1980s are better armed than this piece of crap.



    It's off topic, but anyway:

    Weapons/displacement ratio has no meaning, nor it will never have.

    Weapons embarked are a function of the missions envisaged, displacement is a function of the missions envisaged.

    Taking a look to Baden-Wüttenberg's requirements, they are really demanding technically and the fairly large displacement is what it takes to get such requirements fulfilled.

    Weapon systems are those required for the missions, the real fault many recognize in Baden-WÜttenberg, and I too share that opinion, is the lack of a credible medium range AAW.

    Arming to the teeth ships has little value. Still flexibility is always a real plus.

    Baden-Wüttenberg's displacement and enormous endurance are partially wasted because it is too far specialized, while it could easily switch to the land attack role, and the Deutsche Marine is just starting to acquire land attack cruise missiles, the lack of a medium range SAM means it will have to be heavily escorted without adding any capabilities on its own in AAW's realm.

    It would have taken just to add one single Mk. 41 VLS to have a 32 ESSM capacity, not a huge burden for a 7000 tons vessel.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:11 am

    TheArmenian wrote:Stop fighting.
    You children don't have a clue on why the Navy GlavKomand wants to do more tests on the Ivan Gren.

    By the way, I have information that the Yantar shipyard in Kalininigrad is getting ready to launch the second unit of the class (Peter Morgunov) soon.

    Stay tuned.

    Neutron torpedos needed some tweaking thats all.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:16 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    runaway wrote:There is no need to get excited, its just trouble with propulsion. We all know this ships long time of idle building status and so on, now it seems its almost ready except for minor trouble with propulsion.
    We also know they built these 6 kilo subs and 3 frigates for the BSF in good time. But with sanctions and low oil price they have had to make priorities, so I say again, nothing to get excited for.
    The ship will be transferred to Navy when the Navy is satisfied it works 100%, nothing strange.

    Actually, if the issues are related to reversing propulsion, that means some trouble with the reduction gear.

    If there is any fault in it, even if limited to the reversing function, it won't be easy to solve without taking it out and either deeply modifying it or in the worst case replacing it with a revised version.

    Reduction gears are made of high precision mechanisms, and any problem with them result always in a great headache

    This is extremely worrying. So those shitty reduction gears will delay the ship by another year judging by the time it takes for russians to fix precision machinery.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:31 am

    Oh my, non-descript propulsion problems. This is the end of Russia.

    Meanwhile, the latest and greatest British aircraft carrier throws a screw blade and suffers major damage to the propulsion assembly.
    Nothing to see here, move along. Unlike the Russian junk, this masterpiece is "deployed".

    Wanker trolls are a laugh riot.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:47 am

    That was the french Charles de Gaulle carrier, that started its career employing a set of reserve screws coming from the old Foch, either as a cost saving measure or because intended purpose built screws were not yet financed/ready.

    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    Sometimes I suspect It was only to buy consensus by local workforce and citizens, but if that is the case, Kremlin and the Navy should start giving the finger to some workforce, its managers and local communities.

    Just look at Pella or Transas, Russia has people and companies able to compete in the market and to provide modern products on time and on budget.

    Start killing old companies and lay off just everybody, the let some new and efficient Company to step in and give It total freedom to choose whether and whom/what to save.
    And give It total protection from any possibile pressure, being It political, social or criminal.

    The message sent countrywide should be clear and loud: political ties and political opportunity/convenience have a meaning just as long as performances are delivered.

    If you, as managers, as workforce and as communities are unable to deliver the performances, no political support will save you from the kill's list.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:39 am

    This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas

    ...this is the first time the German Navy has returned a ship to a shipbuilder after delivery... wrote:
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:48 pm

    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:32 am

    What will replace the alligator class landing ships in the Russian navy?

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:56 pm

    Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.

    That's stupid. Russia went for mistral because of the transfert of tech. Buying two old ships would have been waste of time and money as we saw since they bought mistrale they didn't need those ship till today so it's for the best. And now they kept the money and have the ToT from mistrals...

    Ivan Gren is a good replacement for similar older ships. Mistral like ships are a new tool. They will have 2-4 of them so they are not meant to replace 15 armed landing ships but complete it.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:52 am

    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.

    Sovremennys are not enough and are on their way out. Also, what if the enemy has AA what then happens to the precious Ka-29's? What if there's no kerosene for them? What of the flight deck is damaged by shore arty?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:52 am

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm

    Αfter the new problem with Ivan Gren is there any estimate about the new time delivery from any MoD source?

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:34 pm

    Foudre was and still is not anche old ship.

    As a ship, It was around 10 years old when sold to Chile.

    As kind of ship, she is an LSD, i.e. the standard in large scale amphibious assault.

    As old school LST unload a large number of men and vehicoles beaching themselves, an LST unload them through a large number of landing crafts.

    Far from being an old kind of ship, It is one amongst the missing capabilities in amphibious warfare of Russian Navy.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 pm

    Russian Navy to get large amphibious assault ship by late spring

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/989312
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:25 pm

    I find it kind of funny that the article has been shared almost 200 times on Facebook, which seems to quite a lot for the site. Or is Ivan Gren actually a proper meme at this point? Smile The headline makes it sound like they're talking about a major ship or something. Laughing It does mention that it has been under construction for a very long time, but I still wonder how many readers actually realize that...
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    marat

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:08 am

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    They used a sea landings quite much in WW2, thanks to one of them they have Kuril islands now.

    Also in next war Russia would probably prefer not to fight on their land, as last time (in ww2) it cost them to much.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas


    Wow, what a POS.

    Actually, it is poor construction standards. Testing is not supposed to fix problems like listing. If a shipyard can't properly balance
    the mass of a ship, then it should not be in the ship construction business.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:10 am

    On the large amphibious ships of Project 11711, the engines will be interchanged

    According to the web resource Mil.Press FlotProm, the problems with the backward operation of the large landing craft of Project 11711 type "Ivan Gren" are planned to be solved by rearranging the diesels. Mil.Press FlotProm was informed about this by an industry source familiar with the situation.

    Diesel engines 16ЧН26 / 26 large amphibious ship Project 11711 "Peter Morgunov" will be interchanged, the source added. "The right and left engines will be rearranged to the left and right side, respectively." This will change the nature of the rotation of the screws and eliminate the problem of controllability when reversing, "he said.



    The source added that in case of successful tests at Morgunov, the profile state commission will make a decision about similar changes on the main ship Ivan Gren. According to him, this will happen after the transfer of the ship to the fleet, which was transferred to May.

    The press service of "Yantar" correspondent Mil.Press FlotProm confirmed this information, but refrained from the details.

    State testing "Grena" in late 2017 suspended, including because of problems with the reverse. Descent to the water "Morgunova" planned for May.

    According to the engineer of PJSC "Zvezda" Alexander Arkhipov, the chief designer of the promising Russian diesel M150 "Pulsar", the rearrangement of engines is a complex process and can take up to several months. At the same time, Arkhipov allowed the possibility of changing the diesel in some places.

    A source at the Kolomna plant, engaged in marine diesel engines, told the publication that he was not yet aware of the situation.


    Mil.Press Help FlotProm

    "Ivan Gren" and "Peter Morgunov" - large amphibious ships project 11711, developed by the Nevsky Design Bureau. The main BDC was laid in the Baltic Yantar Shipyard in December 2004, and was launched only in May 2012. The transfer of the "Grena" to the fleet was repeatedly postponed.

    With a body length of 120 meters and a width of 16.5 meters, the displacement of the BDK project 11711 is 5,000 tons. The speed is up to 18 knots. The crew is 100 people. The ship can carry on board 13 tanks or 36 infantry fighting vehicles, as well as up to 300 paratroopers.

    The DB11 of project 11711 is equipped with two diesel-reverse gear units DRRA3700 with a diesel engine of modification 10D49 (16ЧН26 / 26) produced by the Kolomna plant. They are designed for use as part of the main power ship installation to work on a propeller of a fixed pitch.

    The ships are armed with two 30 mm six-barrel artillery AK-630 and one dual AK-630M-2. The search and rescue helicopter Ka-27 or the transport-combat helicopter Ka-29 is based on the deck.



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3102120.html

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