Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle:

"Clowns attack" by Rob Zombie UN .

in order of appearance
clown 2...... Podvig

Wot wot? ban all hypersonic weapons when only Russia has them?


https://www.un.org/disarmament/publications/more/hypersonic-weapons-a-challenge-and-opportunity-for-strategic-arms-control/

"Although the military utility of hypersonic boost-glide systems remains uncertain, there are scenarios in which they may offer useful new capabilities. These capabilities may not necessarily be strategic in nature but could nevertheless have strategic ramifications," the study state

+++

Possible arms control approaches

60. Arms control can take various forms. Arrangements can be
legally binding or politically binding. They may be multilateral,
plurilateral, bilateral or unilateral. They may comprehensively
ban a class of weapons, place restrictions on their use, limit their
numbers or seek to curb their proliferation. An arms control
measure covering hypersonic boost-glide systems or HGVs
could be standalone or form part of a broader arrangement
covering other strategic systems. Given the importance of other
weapons systems, particularly missile defences, as a motivating
factor for the pursuit of this technology, the latter may be more
realistic. Ultimately, the form an arms control measure takes will
be determined by its objectives and what is feasible given the
States involved. Possible outcomes are surveyed below.
61. The most direct and robust way to address the issues

Could AVANGARD be launched from bombers like Виктор Мураховский was saying before AVANGARD was presented?


In 2016 speaking about the first seucessful test:

"Yes, (the aircraft) is displayed by a rocket, but it is possible that its carrier will be a supersonic strategic bomber," the expert said.

According to him, the product will be able to develop hypersonic speed due to its own engines, for example, when it is delivered by supersonic strategic bombers.

“Naturally, such a device will be equipped with its own propulsion system, which will allow it to develop such a speed. Experimental work is now under way on engines. Words such as“ detonation burning ”should speak about how the device will be able to reach that speed,” concluded Murakhovsky.

https://ria.ru/20161028/1480214764.html

The problem is translation issues... I have seen them talk about new Tu-160s as being new gliders too...


The interesting thing is that the US plans for Global Strike was to have an ICBM launched conventional glider able to attack point targets anywhere on earth very rapidly but they were intending such a system to be not counted by the START treaties because of the conventional payloads.

Sort of sounded like these systems would be controlled by the CIA or something separate from strategic command.

Of course the hypocracy is to be expected... when Russia puts some HALE UCAVs into service that are armed with modern and capable weapons then these "murder bots" will need rules regarding their use and deployment and where and when they can be located...

GarryB wrote:The problem is translation issues... I have seen them talk about new Tu-160s as being new gliders too...

I dont think is a translation problem, he is very clear supersonic bomber, how big is Avangard? Could Pak-Da?

GarryB wrote:The problem is translation issues... I have seen them talk about new Tu-160s as being new gliders too...

unlikely, Murhakovsky was talking about an additional stage which could provide avangard with needed Ek

Ria artivle wrote:“Naturally, such a device will be equipped with its own propulsion system, which will allow it to develop such a speed. Experimental work is now under way on engines. Words such as“ detonation burning ”should speak about how the device will be able to reach that speed,” concluded Murakhovsky.

BTW R&D referred here was referring here to PDE engines not Avangard lunched from Tu-160

Arrow wrote:How Avangard keeps a high speed Mach 27. If it flies on an  lower trajectory in the atmosphere. Physically, this ist impossible. RV flies in space so it does not lose so much energy.

strong statement for somebody with no fluid dynamics background I tell you a secret, well know one bTW, below 50kms there is 99% mass of atmosphere

Well I suggested scramjet propulsion but everyone else seems to think it just skips off the atmosphere like a flat stone bouncing off a water surface... of course such a thing would be almost as predictable as fully ballistic trajectory and completely intercept-able while the object is in space again and again as it skips... because like a stone skipping across a stream or stretch of water, it would never actually enter the atmosphere it only skips off the surface back out into space/air.

Of course that does not explain the fact that it is supposed to both enter the upper atmosphere and accelerate in the atmosphere... but I don't know fluid theory either... never really been much of a fan of alcohol...

Arrow wrote:How Avangard keeps a high speed Mach 27. If it flies on an  lower trajectory in the atmosphere. Physically, this ist impossible. RV flies in space so it does not lose so much energy.

I'll keep it brief:

1) New materials man more heat resistance

2) Mach 27 is max speed attained during tests (so far), regular safe speed for everyday use is Mach 20

Arrow wrote:Scramjet does not work at such high altitude. HGV, however, fly much higher than Cirkon.

Scramjet works up to ~80km nevertheless nobody ever said Avangard has scramjets not rocket engines.

LMFS wrote:@Gunship
Plasma will protect against radar detection.

Where did you get it from?

Ives wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Gunship
Plasma will protect against radar detection.

Where did you get it from?

Physics.

Plasma is the most efficient absorber of EM radiation and basically re-emits a black body radiation spectrum. No coherent backscatter
and no no incoming frequency correlated re-emission.

The problem is to generate a plasma layer wrapping the hull of the flying object. This is easier at very high speeds.

Could AVANGARD be launched from bombers like Виктор Мураховский was saying before AVANGARD was presented?

Of course it could but it would have nothing like the performance it achieves being launched from an ICBM or even an IRBM.

If it is rocket powered then its performance from an aircraft would be pathetic and totally not even worth it... if you want a sort of ready to launch system then a large space rocket... something like Energyia but with the Buran shuttle on its back replaced with an enormous fairing holding dozens of Avangard vehicles.... the Energyia would get them to low earth orbit and the fairing would split open and release all the warheads that could then disperse towards their targets...

Even Sea Launch could be set up to launch some too if you wanted some conventional warheads to attack something... but most bombers would struggle to carry a rocket large enough to get one vehicle into orbit let alone a lot.

There were plans for the Blackjack to carry a space launch rocket for putting satellites into low earth orbit... the PAK DA probably wont have enough speed to be viable as an alternative to just using an An-124 which could carry a much heavier rocket than the PAK DA could and at similar flight speeds.

Strategic missile forces have begun to rocket complexes "avant-garde"

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/120116/

The Russian strategic Missile forces (RVSN) have started to get a complex "Avangard", which at the end of the year will be on combat duty, said the commander of the strategic missile forces Sergei Karakayev.

."Missile troops are on a specific historical moment of fighting strength displays the latest missiles of the Soviet production. At the same time managed to create the basis for the production of new missile systems fully Russian cooperation industry, which is already operational strategic missile forces. We continue to accept the operation put on combat duty stationary and mobile missile complexes of the fifth generation "YARS" and "avant-garde", — said Karakayev.

According to him, Yasnenskaya missile formation (Orenburg region) infrastructure deployed to staging missile regiment with the complex "Avangard". According to the plan, the regiment will be put on combat duty by the end of this year.

At the end of last year, the defense Ministry conducted a successful test launch of a missile with a hypersonic glide winged combat unit complex "Avangard". The rocket was launched from Dombarovsky area in the Orenburg region and hit its target on the Kamchatka Peninsula about 6 thousand miles.Thus, the program of flight tests of the missile complex "Avangard" is fully implemented and allows us to deliver complex weapons within the deadline.

If you think of it as an ICBM warhead, you could launch it from a fighter plane but it would have nothing like the range or speed or energy of an ICBM warhead launched from an ICBM.

They have new ICBMs and they have old obsolete ones they use to launch satellites from... if they want to use them to deliver nuclear payloads then putting them on new ICBMs makes a lot of sense because it will ensure they can penetrate any enemy ABM systems... if they want to use kinetic warheads for use during conventional conflicts then putting them on old rockets launched from launch platforms so everyone knows it is not a strategic missile launch then that makes sense too, but using bombers or cargo planes does not really make any sense at all... it would be like taking the warhead from an ATGM and converting it so your soldiers can throw them manually at a target...

kvs wrote:

Ives wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Gunship
Plasma will protect against radar detection.

Where did you get it from?

Physics.

Plasma is the most efficient absorber of EM radiation and basically re-emits a black body radiation spectrum.  No coherent backscatter
and no no incoming frequency correlated re-emission.

The problem is to generate a plasma layer wrapping the hull of the flying object.  This is easier at very high speeds.

But how come the meteors are getting detected by the radars then?

Ives wrote:
But how come the meteors are getting detected by the radars then?

AFAIK when a bolide (or a warhead, or spacecraft re-entry module) is fully sheathed in plasma it can't be tracked by radar. Estimates of its flight path rely on extrapolation of its path before hitting the atmosphere, IR trackers and eye-witness accounts.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Ives wrote:
But how come the meteors are getting detected by the radars then?

AFAIK when a bolide (or a warhead, or spacecraft re-entry module) is fully sheathed in plasma it can't be tracked by radar.  Estimates of its flight path rely on extrapolation of its path before hitting the atmosphere, IR trackers and eye-witness accounts.  

Isn't it going to change with ROFAR since its uses "optical T/R" and the wareheads coming into atmosphere are the contrary of stealth in terms of IR signature ?

There are no problems with the production of Avangard complexes, the work is proceeding smoothly - the vice-premier Borisov’s staff

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=511867&lang=RU

Ives wrote:

kvs wrote:

Ives wrote:

LMFS wrote:@Gunship
Plasma will protect against radar detection.

Where did you get it from?

Physics.

Plasma is the most efficient absorber of EM radiation and basically re-emits a black body radiation spectrum.  No coherent backscatter
and no no incoming frequency correlated re-emission.

The problem is to generate a plasma layer wrapping the hull of the flying object.  This is easier at very high speeds.

But how come the meteors are getting detected by the radars then?

Are they though?
There was huge meteor that impacted near Kamchatka half a year ago. It was only noticed very recently after some satellite photos turned out to have picked up its trail.

dino00 wrote:There are no problems with the production of Avangard complexes, the work is proceeding smoothly - the vice-premier Borisov’s staff

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=511867&lang=RU

as in every story there is a grain of truth. I dont think Russia can make more then 60 Avangards... per month

During reentry from space by manned spacecraft they lose contact because of this problem... and that is with known objects on predicable flight paths that they have radar sets set up and watching for... and it still takes a while to track down where they actually land because they are moving rather fast while they are not visible so they could guess where they might land but cannot say for sure...

For something the are not expecting like a meteor then the problems are compounded.

BTW object from space in space = meteoroid
object from space in atmosphere = meteor
object from space that hits ground or water = meteorite

Ives wrote:
But how come the meteors are getting detected by the radars then?

whatever the reason is US officially stated having problems with tracking. Mesosphere object flying fast with changing trajectory is non trivial for all radar-battle mgmt systems
https://spacenews.com/is-a-space-sensor-layer-the-pentagons-next-space-program/

Arrow wrote:How Avangard keeps a high speed Mach 27. If it flies on an  lower trajectory in the atmosphere. Physically, this ist impossible. RV flies in space so it does not lose so much energy.

For Israel and Americans is definitively impossible... but not for Russia.

They are truly caught with pants down with Avangard.. Russia will have complete
domination in any nuclear offensive , will hit US and Israel with total impunity.
The only thing Russia needs is to mass produce avangards and their other hypersonic missiles in massive numbers.. So that they can be used for conventional war too.