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    Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

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    Werewolf
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    Module-A Gliding bomb OFAB-250+

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:06 pm

    Have missed this news last year on MAKS-2013 but russia is producing Gliding kit for bombs to enhance their range.

    http://nevskii-bastion.ru/modul-a-maks-2013/





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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  eridan on Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:47 pm

    Poster mentions no modification for aircraft, so i am assuming this is a bomb with inertial navigation system based autopilot?

    Even so, 20 m accuracy at 60 km distance seems a bit of an overstatement. Though understandable for a promotional claim. Still perfect for cluster bomb delivery, even though their more bulky shape would probably mean 60 km glide range would suffer a lot.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:11 pm

    Yes it seams that this is INS guidance, russia favors cheaper solutions for smaller ammunitions, there are Laser guided,INS and i think IR guided gliding bombs of 1000 and 1500kg class.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:58 am

    So this is "russian" JSOW?

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:21 am

    George1 wrote:So this is "russian" JSOW?
    Not really, this closer to JDAM-ER


    hmmm Sorry my mistake... Should have seen the right figure :3

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  coolieno99 on Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:36 pm

    The BETAB 500 ShP  rocket-boosted bunker buster was used to destroyed ISIL command center. The command center was an underground hardened concrete-reinforced structure. It was immuned to attacks from conventional bombs.

    http://www.cat-uxo.com/#/betab-500-shp-bomb/4586970993

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:42 pm

    Russian Military to Complete Testing on KAB-250 Guided Bombs This Year

    The latest version of Russia's KAB-250 precision-guided bomb will soon complete trials, according to the weapon's manufacturer, Moscow-based Region Scientific & Production Enterprise JSC.

    "The bomb is in trials on the Sukhoi Su-34 [Russian fighter jet], with the trials to be completed late this year," Region's director general, Igor Krylov, told IHS Jane's at the Russian Defense Ministry Innovation Day.

    There are two versions of the 250-kilogram KAB: a laser-guided version and a satellite-guided version.

    The KAB-250 follows the larger KAB-500, which made its combat debut in September when the Russian military began launching airstrikes in Syria.

    The KAB-250 will enter the weapons suite of the PAK FA fifth-generation fighter next year. It can be mounted externally or stored in the jet’s internal weapons bays.

    According to Krylov, the KAB-250 was developed in response to the Small Diameter Bomb, which the United States developed for its F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation fighters, IHS Jane's reports.

    The KAB-250 has a fragmentation warhead designed to destroy lightly vulnerable materiel, thin-skinned vehicles, and other enemy installations. The bomb can be dropped individually or in salvoes. The aircraft carrying the KAB-250LG-Es must be fitted with a laser illumination system or the target can be illuminated by a forward air controller, according to IHS Jane's

    The KAB-250 weighs a total of 565 pounds, with a warhead of 365 pounds and a 200-pound explosive.

    The bomb is 10.5 feet long. It has a complex, compact tail design and is fitted with four long-chord, short-span wings to increase its glide range. It falls from an aircraft at a rate of 655-1,150 feet per second.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151008/1028234156/russian-military-testing-kab-250-guided-bombs.html#ixzz3o4OoREx5


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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:36 pm

    ‘Drop-and-Forget’: Russia Develops Supersonic Smart Bomb

    The latest version of Russia's KAB-250 precision-guided bomb will soon complete trials, Russian media reported on Saturday.

    The KAB-250 is a follow-on to the larger KAB-500 PGM, which made its combat debut in September in Syria. There are two versions of the 250-kilogram KAB: a laser-guided version and a satellite-guided version.

    Based on the “drop-and-forget” principle, the KAB-250 guided aerial bomb incorporates the latest advances in science and technology, including the experience of its KAB-500 predecessor.

    The inertial guidance system directs the bomb towards the target area. Two to three kilometers from the target the bomb’s onboard computer commands the thermal homing head to acquire the designated target.

    The KAB-250’s thermal homing head then compares the acquired image with the reference picture laid down in its memory before discharge, and corrects the trajectory so that the radius of the deviation does not exceed three meters.

    The KAB-250 has a fragmentation warhead designed to destroy lightly vulnerable materiel, thin-skinned vehicles, and other enemy installations. The bomb can be dropped individually or in salvoes.

    The KAB-250 is 10.5 feet long, weighs a total of 565 pounds, with a 365 pound warhead and a 200-pound explosive.

    It has a complex, compact tail design and is fitted with four long-chord, short-span wings to increase its glide range. It falls from an aircraft at a rate of 655-1,150 feet per second.

    The KAB-250 can be used in all weather conditions and time of day, with different trajectories and speeds of several Mach number. The aerodynamic wings and close to neutral alignment munition provide high maneuverability and greater range.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151018/1028696831/russia-supersonic-bomb.html#ixzz3ovU3Ul6b


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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:53 pm

    It sounds Kab-250 has triple guidance modes that are INS (mid-course phase), semi-active laser (pre-terminal phase) and IR matching (terminal phase).

    Cyberspec
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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:33 am

    George1 wrote:Russian Military to Complete Testing on KAB-250 Guided Bombs This Year
    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151008/1028234156/russian-military-testing-kab-250-guided-bombs.html#ixzz3o4OoREx5





    Taken from here
    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1057184.html

    http://topwar.ru/84302-korrektiruemaya-bomba-kab-250-sluhi-patenty-i-vozmozhnoe-boevoe-primenenie.html

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:02 pm



    Good piece on precise guided munitions employed in Syria theatre.

    http://vpk.name/news/143127_obekt_na_vyilet.html


    Of particular interest is :

    The analysis of the operational impact achieved by СВП-24; the system has fully complied with its intended specifications allowing the employment of free fall bombs and not corrected rockets - representing the high majority of air delivered munitions in domestic and foreign reserve - with level of median deviation from targets comparable with precision corrected munitions.

    The capability to precisely employ ,in this way, uncorrected munitions for the selective destruction of enemy infrastructures of different size, not only reduce of orders of magnitude the costs of such operations in comparison with flight correction kit applied to each single uncorrected bomb (such as JDAM kit), but increase enormously the resilience to ECM against advanced opponents (in particular local satelite link jammers) that could easily turn JDAM-like munitions in uncorrected bombs but could almost nothing against free-fall bombs precisely delivered thanks to СВП-24.


    The other point of interests is the performances of KAB-250 the aerodynamic layout of which and capability to be delivered at high supersonic speed appear to match fully supersonic-high altitude delivery from PAKFA.




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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  jhelb on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:17 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Good piece on precise guided munitions employed in Syria theatre.

    http://vpk.name/news/143127_obekt_na_vyilet.html


    Of particular interest is :

    The analysis of the operational impact achieved by СВП-24; the system has fully complied with its intended specifications allowing the employment of free fall bombs and not corrected rockets

    Is it possible to replace Guided Bombs with just СВП-24?

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  artjomh on Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:47 pm

    jhelb wrote:Is it possible to replace Guided Bombs with just СВП-24?

    SVP-24 is not a JDAMski bomb kit. It's just a new fire control/navigation/communications system for Tu-22M, Su-25 and Su-24M.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  jhelb on Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:55 pm

    artjomh wrote:SVP-24 is not a JDAMski bomb kit. It's just a new fire control/navigation/communications system for Tu-22M, Su-25 and Su-24M.

    Yeah artjomh, I realize that SVP-24 is basically a Computing System that increases the accuracy of dumb bombs.

    So basically my question was, is it possible just to use SVP-24 with dumb bombs and do away with PGMs altogether?

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  artjomh on Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:39 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    artjomh wrote:SVP-24 is not a JDAMski bomb kit. It's just a new fire control/navigation/communications system for Tu-22M, Su-25 and Su-24M.

    Yeah artjomh, I realize that SVP-24 is basically a Computing System that increases the accuracy of dumb bombs.

    So basically my question was, is it possible just to use SVP-24 with dumb bombs and do away with PGMs altogether?

    Not really.

    Accuracy of JDAM'd bombs is still 2-3 times lower than that of an air-to-ground laser/radar-guided missile. However, they are an order of magnitude cheaper.

    So, just as before, it's not a question of replacement, it's a question of cost-benefit analysis. You would still use something like Kh-59 if you need to hit a high-value target within 2-3 meter accuracy, but will revert to your regular bombs with a bubba'd guidance kit when you are ok with 10 meter accuracy and just need to cover the volume.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:08 pm

    I'm sure SVP-24 also work well with satellite guided bombs KAB-500S and KAB-250S. I think both Su-25SM and modernized Su-24M could use them and they are good alternative for laser or TV guided bombs.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:28 pm

    It increases the bombing effectivness of older/legacy aircraft....apparently about 80% of bombs fell within 0-10m of target during tests according to the producer of the system and it sounds like the VKS is happy with it's performance in Syria.

    AFAIK, the Su-25's in Syria don't have the SVP-24 or do they Question

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:16 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:It increases the bombing effectivness of older/legacy aircraft....apparently about 80% of bombs fell within 0-10m of target during tests according to the producer of the system and it sounds like the VKS is happy with it's performance in Syria.

    AFAIK, the Su-25's in Syria don't have the SVP-24 or do they Question

    No, Su-25SM doesn't have Gefest SVP-24 upgrade, but have similar upgrade with fire control computer with additional Glonass satellite navigation and as it is seen in Syria, they also add data link complex to improve effectiveness, that Su-25SM could bomb at night with dumb bombs using data link for target receiving and satellite navigation to attack coordinates of the targets. Having satellite navigation connected with fire control computer, there is no problem to integrate satellite guided bombs and Su-25SM is testing KAB-500S bombs.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  marcellogo on Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:52 pm

    Let's take the good habit to call them free-fall bomb or even better unguided ordnance so to include also the rockets and the powerful gun used by the Mi-24P.
    Dumb bomb suggest something ineherently imprecise that only poor beggar could use. unshaven

    Real advantage of Jdam type bombs is that they can be launched at very high quote with no need of a visual contact with target.
    It means much more security for the pilots but it doesn't offer any significant advantage in terms of precision.
    On the other side it need precise coordinated as it bombs a location more than a given target like other form of guidance systems.
    I've posted on other forums an interesting article about how the point of wiews and the same basic mindset of the USAF and the VVS-FA are so radically different to make them an absolute precondition of any possible military action and in the other just a well definited and not so important niche in a vaste array of different weapons.
    Gave me five minutes and i'll retrieve it ,ok?

    Done.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/warfare/2015/10/18/russia-shows-early-success-new-capabilities-syria/74041722/

    To sum it up, the so-called frontal aviation of VVS deal almost exclusively with direct tactical support to troops on field ie CAS/BAI mission.
    In this role vanilla sat-guided bomb have simply no role: they are less precise than other guidance systems and offer not any real advantage even when compared with unguided ones when they are coupled with updated FLIR and targeting systems.

    According to their own word they are instead useful just to destroy separate targets or also to simply bomb separate cities, territories and infrastructure into oblivion, with separate meaning here "well distant from front lines": something that in their doctrine is made by the long distance aviation i.e. in this case the Su-34 only.
    For the USAF instead the simply idea of having a dependant role to the field commander i.e. to the Army is just an abomination, hence their repeated attempts to kill the A-10 that operate along those guidelines and with its C version with operative modalities surprisingly similar to the one of Gefest equipped russian strikers.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:30 am

    Is it possible to replace Guided Bombs with just СВП-24?

    Of course it is possible.... but not sensible... would a computer repair person give up all his screwdrivers except a single phillips head? He possibly could and then he will get a computer he needs a flat head screwdriver for...

    Yeah artjomh, I realize that SVP-24 is basically a Computing System that increases the accuracy of dumb bombs.

    So basically my question was, is it possible just to use SVP-24 with dumb bombs and do away with PGMs altogether?

    Let me put it this way... it is like a sniper with a powerful rifle and a super scope that not only compensates for wind and the movement of the target, but air temperature and the precise range to target... that makes it ideal for fixed targets, but a moving target is a problem because once fired that round will not change direction if the target does.

    On the other hand having very expensive guided rounds that follow the target after launch means much better hit probability.

    What you are asking is could you be a sniper without guided rounds... of course you can... but don't expect to be able to hit moving targets.

    The rounds that are guided to hit moving targets are more expensive than standard bullets but when needed they are worth it.

    What I am saying is when you can have both why be a cheap bastard?

    I'm sure SVP-24 also work well with satellite guided bombs KAB-500S and KAB-250S.

    Just because a weapon is laser or satellite guided doesn't mean you can drop it anywhere... having an accurate aim point in the first place will improve terminal accuracy of any weapon... if it was going to nearly hit the target anyway then it means less extreme manouvers will be needed by the weapon to hit the target accurately.

    It increases the bombing effectivness of older/legacy aircraft....apparently about 80% of bombs fell within 0-10m of target during tests according to the producer of the system and it sounds like the VKS is happy with it's performance in Syria.

    Such systems can be added to any aircraft.

    Believe it or not the Tu-22M3 doesn't have super accuracy in bombing and would greatly benefit from such a system to make it rather more potent.

    Let's take the good habit to call them free-fall bomb or even better unguided ordnance so to include also the rockets and the powerful gun used by the Mi-24P.
    Dumb bomb suggest something ineherently imprecise that only poor beggar could use.

    Dumb bombs just lack guidance.. the real difference here is how they are delivered.... without the Gefest & T upgrade we are pretty much talking grid square bombing or area bombing. With the G&T system individual aircraft can aim individual dumb bombs at specific point targets with a level of accuracy that means guided munitions are not needed.

    To sum it up, the so-called frontal aviation of VVS deal almost exclusively with direct tactical support to troops on field ie CAS/BAI mission.
    In this role vanilla sat-guided bomb have simply no role: they are less precise than other guidance systems and offer not any real advantage even when compared with unguided ones when they are coupled with updated FLIR and targeting systems.

    I would agree to a point however the CCIP that allows accurate point bomb or rocket delivery would benefit the Su-25 better than guided bombs or rockets. Of course in practise the Su-25 does use laser guided Kh-25 missiles (AS-10 Karen) and heavier weapons.

    Meanwhile the Su-24 and Su-34 that have the CCIP system first as they target individual targets well away from enemy lines like bridges and HQs and SAMs and communications centres etc where accurate delivery of a few heavy bombs can make a real difference... against an ammo dump 1m precision is not needed... a half dozen 100kg bombs distributed around would be rather more effective.



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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:06 am

    SVP-24 has a CEP of 20-24 meters which is quite good in GPS/GLONASS , External Aided Navigation like LORAN etc denied environment.

    If they can better it to say 5-10 meter then it would be really awesome and can really substitute GPS etc for most weapons

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  marcellogo on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Is it possible to replace Guided Bombs with just СВП-24?

    Of course it is possible.... but not sensible... would a computer repair person give up all his screwdrivers except a single phillips head? He possibly could and then he will get a computer he needs a flat head screwdriver for...

    Yeah artjomh, I realize that SVP-24 is basically a Computing System that increases the accuracy of dumb bombs.

    So basically my question was, is it possible just to use SVP-24 with dumb bombs and do away with PGMs altogether?

    Let me put it this way... it is like a sniper with a powerful rifle and a super scope that not only compensates for wind and the movement of the target, but air temperature and the precise range to target... that makes it ideal for fixed targets, but a moving target is a problem because once fired that round will not change direction if the target does.

    On the other hand having very expensive guided rounds that follow the target after launch means much better hit probability.

    What you are asking is could you be a sniper without guided rounds... of course you can... but don't expect to be able to hit moving targets.

    The rounds that are guided to hit moving targets are more expensive than standard bullets but when needed they are worth it.

    What I am saying is when you can have both why be a cheap bastard?

    Well, satellite guided bombs are absolutely incapable to hit anything moving or better said they are not intended to hit anything only to come the closer possible to given coordinates, regardless of what is in there, so the example of the sniper scope just doesn't fit well.

    Russia has a large array of guided weapon, with a lot of different and often modular guidance systems, it is just the sat/guided that really doesn't fit well for their doctrine, while in the West, well, better say Usa above all is something absolutely essential in about virtually any new type of weapon.

    So,keeping different series of unguided bombs in all possible version (FAB, OFAB,FZAB, BETAB and so on...), besides the guided ones with just a GP warhead Russia is the ones that got the whole series of tools there, not the contrary

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  marcellogo on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:40 pm

    To sum it up, the so-called frontal aviation of VVS deal almost exclusively with direct tactical support to troops on field ie CAS/BAI mission.
    In this role vanilla sat-guided bomb have simply no role: they are less precise than other guidance systems and offer not any real advantage even when compared with unguided ones when they are coupled with updated FLIR and targeting systems.

    I would agree to a point however the CCIP that allows accurate point bomb or rocket delivery would benefit the Su-25 better than guided bombs or rockets. Of course in practise the Su-25 does use laser guided Kh-25 missiles (AS-10 Karen) and heavier weapons.

    Meanwhile the Su-24 and Su-34 that have the CCIP system first as they target individual targets well away from enemy lines like bridges and HQs and SAMs and communications centres etc where accurate delivery of a few heavy bombs can make a real difference... against an ammo dump 1m precision is not needed... a half dozen 100kg bombs distributed around would be rather more effective.

    I 've sorted this out just to point that the " to sum it up" quote refers to a sommary of what is written in the article more than my personal position, even if i agree on most of the thing said in it.

    KH series of missiles are just a fine example of a type of extremely precise guided weapon that fit well in the above mentioned FA doctrine and are instead fell in disuse in the US because it would not fit into their own (while UK have developed the excellent Brimstones).

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  marcellogo on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:58 pm

    Austin wrote:SVP-24 has a CEP of 20-24 meters which is quite good in GPS/GLONASS , External Aided Navigation like LORAN etc denied environment.

    If they can better it to say 5-10 meter then it would be really awesome and can really substitute GPS etc for most weapons

    A fundamental difference there.
    In a Jdam type bomb CEP is almost always the same regardless of quote, speed, ability of the crew and so on.
    Targeting systems depends instead much more by those variables, so the CEP can vary by sensible amounts.
    20/25 CEP is something that even a WWII dive bomber was usually able to achieve.
    Russian bombings in Syria usually are performed at 5000mt altitude, so a 10 meter CEP is IMHO perfectly possible, almost in clear days and with an expert crews.

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    Re: Precision Guided Munitions in RuAF

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:17 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Austin wrote:SVP-24 has a CEP of 20-24 meters which is quite good in GPS/GLONASS , External Aided Navigation like LORAN etc denied environment.

    If they can better it to say 5-10 meter then it would be really awesome and can really substitute GPS etc for most weapons

    A fundamental difference there.
    In a Jdam type bomb CEP is almost always the same regardless of quote, speed, ability of the crew  and so on.
    Targeting systems depends instead much more by those variables, so the CEP can vary by sensible amounts.
    20/25 CEP is something that even a WWII dive bomber was usually able to achieve.
    Russian bombings in Syria usually are performed at 5000mt altitude, so a 10 meter CEP is IMHO perfectly possible, almost in clear days and with an expert crews.

    I was going to write something along those lines.

    There was a discussion about the Gefest SVP-24 on the Runet a few years back (I didn't save it Mad ) and they were quoting the manufacturer's specs and results from exercises back in the period of 2009-2011...their selling point was that it delivers similar performance to 1st generation PGM's (under good conditions I would imagine)

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