Russian special military operation in Ukraine #37

Not sure Wagner would have the same equipment and vehicles as a motor rifle or tank division... they are essentially an infantry force, which is not a bad thing in this sort of conflict, but the Russian army is more mechanised and probably has less gimmicky equipment like drones and NV stuff, but these days the Russian soldier is rather well equipped by anyones standards.
(would say the same with a comparison between a US division and Blackwater...)

Gone are the days when a unit consisted of troops where not one jacket matched one pair of trousers in terms of camouflage design.

So the "Tsar Wolves" thing Rogozin's now heading seems to be all about fielding/trialling novel equipment without involving the regular armed forces acqusition channels and bureaucracy?

Bunch of statements this morning from him on combat robots (Marker), new "smart" mortar units from NPO Avtomatika, new DMRs from Orsis etc, all to be tested in real combat now.

Earlier he spoke of them developing and trying new aerial drones together with various companies as well.

@GarryB - I definitely agree that quantity was always a bigger issue. Regarding equipment, Wagner was recently seen fielding T-90Ms around Bahmut.

https://t.me/intelslava/42910

On the T-90M note, there's tons of these showing up all over the place: https://t.me/Slavyangrad/30303

@sepheronx - I'm not saying the Russian regulars (which is what, your typical Motor Rifle Brigade?) are poorly trained or equipped, but they have less actual combat experience compared to most Wagner units, and certainly less motivated by definition given where each soldier ended up.

Frankly we've seen little to nothing to these so-called Russian regulars, short of some seemingly not so great performances around Kiev earlier. I'm guessing they are all doing the artillery/MLRS and SAM work behind the previously mentioned assault infantry / light infantry groups.

They are like a heavily armed child. I don't mind and evolution in the global order, but a US collapse may be bad for everyone so be careful what you wish for. I would prefer a gradual evolution where others rise up and the US becomes more insular and of course the death of the Neocons and "American exceptionalism" would be a breath of fresh air. Chaos is bad for everyone.

Fearing the US losing its control of the world (which it never had BTW) is part of their attempts to retain control... when their argument is better the devil you know you have to realise they are admitting themselves to be the devil.

In comparison the concept of BRICS where no country dominates or tries to impose its culture and its rules and its beliefs on other countries and everyone respects other countries as being different and that being a good thing, and just trades and cooperate on things you share an interest in.  Where no country can ignore international law when it suits them or invade a country and wipe out a government because they didn't follow international law by your interpretation.

A monkey with a gun... unpredictable... other than the obvious curiosity, need for food need to reproduce and need to survive, which can be predictable you can't expect any particular behaviour from them because the only skins they care about are the 1% and making them richer.

Well I think part of the force represent some of the best in Russia. But Ukraines best are long gone and now Russia is mostly fighting schoolboys and grandpas.

But that is the point... those Orc best are gone... they didn't choose to leave or run away... they are dead... and the Russians killed them (new and existing Russians that is).

Russia should not underestimate HATO and the US, but equally they should not stop doing what is needed because of something the US might or might not do.

All along Russia has done what it has to and all it can do is react to western escalations to ensure Russia and Russians remain as safe as they can make them.

Right now Russians are dying and Russian territory is being occupied, but the current situation is much better than what they would have now without the attack, and certainly better than any offer made so far by Kiev or HATO.

And Russia never had to fight a full contingent of everything the West can muster with its people fully convinced it do or face the end of their countries and families.

HATO veterans who volunteered to fight in the Ukraine seemed to suggest that fighting without air superiority and artillery on call for themselves and the enemy having quality artillery and air support was something they could not really deal with... their anti aircraft weapons were not up to it despite Ukraine being probably better equipped with air defence equipment in numbers and types than all of HATO put together. Their air power was nothing amazing but I don't think HATO air power could have wiped out the Russian Air defence even after a year and the number of aircraft they would have lost would have destroyed them as a force even with drones which would have been slapped out of the sky very easily... which is why the west refused to supply the big ones... because they know they are sitting ducks.

I appreciate you saying Russia should not underestimate HATO, but I really don't think they are... their current experience probably has led to them thinking perhaps HATO are not as all powerful and they like to think they are... the problem for HATO is that to keep your job you have to claim the orcs are decimating the entire Russian military force which has been totally committed to this conflict and they are out of ammo too...

Delusional.

@GarryB - I definitely agree that quantity was always a bigger issue. Regarding equipment, Wagner was recently seen fielding T-90Ms around Bahmut.

Yeah, having some tanks does not make them a tank division... there are lots of organic units that are part of a division that Wagner simply wont need or want... how many BMP-3s does Wagner use... I suspect most of the time they will use BTRs or Tigrs and MRAPs to move around the place.

@Snufflebug
Rogozin's idea is not bad. Let's see what comes out of it.
Viktor Murakhovski spoke about an initiative of creating an experimental tank battalion, which would test new armour fighting techniques and strategy. I didn't hear anything since, so I guess MoD didn't allow it.

https://t.me/Viktor_Murakhovskiy/361

We are representatives of the All-Russian public movement "Union of Tankmen of Russia", we propose to form a separate tank battalion (OTB), in connection with the new requirements of modern warfare within the framework of the Special Military Operation (SVO).

We are ready to take part in the formation of the OTB, staffing it with veterans of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and relevant specialists, as well as attracting investors to supply the necessary property and material values.

Our comrades have already tested new methods of accelerated training of tank crew members, including new requirements for conducting tactical combat, using the experience of military operations in the NMD, taking into account the psychological burden and information wars.

To prepare such a military unit, it will take from the day it is 75% manned by tankers - about three weeks, if there is a formed department or group of instructors, equipment and weapons.  The data of the instructor will be prepared immediately at the beginning of the formation of one of our reserve officers, who should lead this OTB (Guards Lieutenant Colonel Kalugin O.N.)

Combat coordination of companies and OTB should be carried out in conditions as close as possible to combat units with firing standard weapons, with the full involvement of all units, headquarters and command and control groups.

We are confident that this unit will be the most combat-ready and capable of carrying out any command orders in all types of combat.  A more precise state will be prepared after our proposal is agreed.  We propose to form this military unit on the basis of the Kazan Higher Tank Command School in the Republic of Tatarstan.

The Kremlin slow burn strategy indeed makes a lot of sense.

First you grab whatever you can, then you force the defenders to either sue for negotiations or to blunder by getting impaled in costly counterattacks and pointless Festung strategy.

The more fanatic the costlier it goes and in the case of the Ukrainians and their warmongering backers, this works wonders.
NATO armies and hardware were primarily built with a defensive mindset to counter a Soviet/Russian blitzkrieg, now they are the ones ill-fitting the role of the attackers if they wish to keep their public at bay as well as the revanchism of the fanatics.

Chose the terrain, destroy the enemy army, bow their will to fight, basically the Thermopylae strategy where advances should be done only to confuse and demoralize the enemy rather than being the objective itself.

When the time is ripe, go full Taliban mode and grab everything.

@Flamming Python

I understand that most communists in Russia are against current Russian establishment due to neoliberal and strongly capitalistic system that is built in the country.
Can you give me your opinion on why so many of your politically like-minded compatriots are against the country, that they openly root for Ukraine to win the war? Do they see potential Russian loss in the war as a good opportunity to snatch power or something along those lines? As it happened in 1917. Or they just want to show that modern Russia is completely rotten and return to Soviet Union type of system is needed?

Taliban were never a threat, that was just for fun. Russia nearly lost to the Germans and French just one nation at a time. So don't be silly. The the US  is basically destroying Ukraine and making Russia pay a high price, just to get the EU. Is it evil and stupid? Yes it is. All this harm is being inflicted on Russia with no blood spilled on the Western side. Just a slav on slav kill fest. In the USA only 3 % of Americans feel Ukraine is important. 3%....of course they are idiots but that makes them even more dangerous.

You really expect French or German hedonists to go to war with Russia like it's 1812 all over again?

Bud, Russia is not threatening Europe. It's fighting on its own terms, against a country that the US and Europe transformed into a threat to its security.
If the mighty NATO bloc want to fight Russia themselves, they'll have to come to the Ukraine at a minimum. Good luck in explaining that to their own people, about the necessity of sacrificing lives and living standards to protect globalism and keep the neo-cons in power in Washington.

If you ask me, they made this whole thing unwinnable for themselves the moment they withdrew from the Ukraine in the weeks prior to the war, and Russia officially came in.
Now they're stuck trying to damage Russia without the benefit of their air support, without official involvement, without a casus belli, without even being able to admit to their own losses, while having turned the whole thing successfully into an existential war for Russia, on the other hand.

@Flamming Python

I understand that most communists in Russia are against current Russian establishment due to neoliberal and strongly capitalistic system that is built in the country.
Can you give me your opinion on why so many of your politically like-minded compatriots are against the country, that they openly root for Ukraine to win the war? Do they see potential Russian loss in the war as a good opportunity to snatch power or something along those lines? As it happened in 1917. Or they just want to show that modern Russia is completely rotten and return to Soviet Union type of system is needed?

They don't

I don't think there is any sort of unified communist or socialist position on this whole mess. Everyone just interprets events their own way.
There is no burgeoning underground political movement that has been going for decades, plotting revolution and with strategies drafted by mastermind thinkers. Different time. The closest there is to that are the color revolution crowd in the employ of Washington - but then they're far from masterminds.

You are mistaking crass opportunism and fishing for sensationalism for rooting for the Ukraine. The people that write these articles are mostly motivated by self-interest.

Now there are those who are trying to professionally destabilize public opinion too of course. However I'd say they're responsible for only a minority of the assorted BS though.

I understand that most communists in Russia are against current Russian establishment due to neoliberal and strongly capitalistic system that is built in the country.

Can you give me your opinion on why so many of your politically like-minded compatriots are against the country, that they openly root for Ukraine to win the war? Do they see potential Russian loss in the war as a good opportunity to snatch power or something along those lines? As it happened in 1917. Or they just want to show that modern Russia is completely rotten and return to Soviet Union type of system is needed?

Regarding 1914-17 war it is not the patriotic or justice war for any side of the conflict. It is a war between the gang boss who wanted to take control of other's land to gain more power and wealth for themselves and these gang boss mobilized people to die for them under the guise of "patriotism" and "glory".

Russian monarchists and nationalists thugs can say whatever they want about how Russia achieved a bloody victory by Brusilov or Russia was close to a "victory" but fact is fact that Russia was at a mess at 1917, Russian government pushed their people into a meaningless war, and the Soviet Union was the only historical period that Russia managed to achieve such a power and prestige that Putin will never be able to replicate.

Flamming
You are mistaking crass opportunism and fishing for sensationalism for rooting for the Ukraine. The people that write these articles are mostly motivated by self-interest.

I am not talking about public personalities, just regular folks I stumble upon. Of course, there are those of the kind you mentioned. But, you have them on any side of political spectrum. Like that pompous ass Strelkov.

Higurashihougi
Russian monarchists and nationalists thugs can say whatever they want about how Russia achieved a bloody victory by Brusilov or Russia was close to a "victory" but fact is fact that Russia was at a mess at 1917, Russian government pushed their people into a meaningless war, and the Soviet Union was the only historical period that Russia managed to achieve such a power and prestige that Putin will never be able to replicate.

My questions didn't have any political background. I just wanted FP's opinion.

About Wagner being more experienced than the military

In infantry urban fighting - of course. Manoeuvre and armoured warfare - no.

Wagners skillset is sharp, but still very narrow. They have better personnel retention and managed to attract skilled individuals from army and reserves, but you won’t see them setting AD networks, planning large scale logistics (actually, they are completely dependent on them from army) or massive artillery barrages. They are not fully fledged military

mztr wrote:Well I think part of the force represent some of the best in Russia. But Ukraines best are long gone and now Russia is mostly fighting schoolboys and grandpas. And Russia never had to fight a full contingent of everything the West can muster with its people fully convinced it do or face the end of their countries and families. The US pop mostly does not give a shit about Ukraine. Its just another BS thing their uniparty is doing.

We still can't comprehend Russia's actual military capabilities or what else they can be hiding, whatever tank order Ukraine got was not a big order by any means. and if they are asking for western tanks that means they have gotten a shitload of their soviet tanks blown up. BMPT terminators still outrange bradleys and Marders with ataka and kornet missiles, MILAN and TOWS are short range. reflecks or sprinter ATGMs still outrange Ukraine's armored vehicles and just for the fun of it the sprinter ATGMs 12km range from T-14s is still longer than 8km hellfire's assuming the UK is retarded enough to go with sending Apaches which cost over 50 million dollars. This is your average Ka-27M radar and the specs on the Ka-52 are greater than this. Thank god this forum is a gold mine of info before KRET, aorti and Vega started purging their magazines and articles when the war started.



tanks are spotted 50-70kms away by ka-27Ms and Ka-52Ms will be even further, and the options to use vikhr 12km missiles or 25km-30km hermes anti-tank missiles is a great asset. or the option to use 2 stage ground launched hermes with a 100km range but with helicopters sharing radar information with the ground crews launching them, tanks, artillery, etc. It wouldn't even matter if Ukraine got the latest M1A2SEPV4s with 3rd gen FLIRs Abrams will be immediately identified 1st and targeted with anti-tank missiles that have a longer range than them, unless those M1a2s are using Israels hardkill APS than the next option would be to use sabot rounds or artillery, or helicopter launched ATGMs since they are pretty fast. I dont think Europe could afford to launch a production line or even start one while T-90Ms are being produced like hot cakes.

US can bring all naval assets, but CSGs will still get destroyed by a submarine 1000kms away launching zircons underwater using satellite guidance or use their new ASBMs they are currently developing to target Naval ships via satellite. all the air to ground campaigns that have been conducted by NATO were against countries that did not have even S-200s. Last time Israel felt like doing air to ground campaigns their F-16Is with EW capabilities got hit by an S-200 and they hid behind a Ilyushin when the S-200s was targeting them again. Even short-range S-75s and S-125s manage to shootdown aircrafts in wars that had air to ground weapons with 3 to 4 times the range the SAMs were able to reach. So I am still undecided how current 5th gens will last against modern air defenses, but it wouldn't matter anyways because runways would be targeted by missiles and eventually aircrafts have to land. Air defenses like PACS, IRIS and SAMP-T can just be dealt with Russian artillery rockets that have a longer range than them and eventually Tornado-S with 200km rocket artillery can target the THAADS or THAAD-ER as well with a constant rocket barrage. To me war has always been about having the right amount of tools to get a job done and Russia doesn't really have to spend as much as the west either.

A catering contract they say. The defense min of Ukraine is a corrupt piece of shit. He wouldn't have the job if he wasn't. He wouldn't be feeding his whole country into a tree grinder if he wasn't. But this isn't about a freaking catering contract. There is a power struggle going on in Ukraine and beyond. They just used the catering contract story because it was fresh in their mind from Progozin. Because the deep state is very lazy and unoriginal. And it likes insulting our intelligence. Just like how Biden has suddenly been leaving classified documents laying around in his garage. But that's the exact same thing they pulled on Trump a year ago.

I posted this late at night but didn't get through, I can't see anywhere

https://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/2023/01/23/tacticas-wagner/

An analysis on the small unit tactics of the Wagner ChVK, as seen through the enemy eyes, even if you can read Russian you might find my commentary interesting as well as the readers comments.



For those that like me, rely on machine translation, my revised translation to Spanish adds value as I correct the style and try to make the end result more readable and understandable. I don't know Russian but I worked as a translator of military history books and I am used to decipher meaning from context. If something is unclear, specially when it's colloquial Russian or front slang, I can always ask for help from my wife or my half Russian Spanish friend.

ALAMO wrote:L2A4 uses EMES-15 main scope.
This marvel of the 70s technology allows to find that there is something out there, in 2500m, in a nice green color.
If it is not raining and there is no fog out there. Nor snowing.
It can operate for 15-20 MINUTES before needs to be turned off for cooling for about half an hour.

That's very interesting and thanks for sharing.

It is worse than the modernized T-72 Ukraine received. Survivability, armor, and reverse speed means very little when the tank is blind like a mole.

Borders do not exist in nature . They are a human construct . They are not a bad idea , if you are a good neighbour . But what does that mean ? Animals have territory , and most defend or fight over territory , and a few share their territory , but they do not have borders . I guess fighting to establish their territory , is for most of them , being good neighbours . Once essential and existential concerns become prominent , then like the animals , humans fight over territory . Out the window goes , all the international laws , made by humans . If Serbia is threatened , then don't blame them or Russia , to forget about the borders .

In some European countries , there are starting to ration electricity , and restarting Coal power stations . Why do so , if there is no shortage ? Therefore there is shortage and they are suffering . But human capacity for suffering is endless . The media controls their minds . It does not allow the citizen to connect the dots . Link the price rises and shortages to the war in Ukraine , and especially their role in prolonging it . In all likelihood , the fate of the war , will be decided on the battlefield , and not by political opposition to it .


The Polish/ German Tanks are crossing the Bridges over Dnieper , or flying over it ? Still the Bridges stand ! I still think it is better to destroy Bridges . Since , the Ukrs will certainly destroy them , if Russia was going to cross . And NATO advance into Ukraine , should be answered / will be answered by Nukes . The limits of conventional war have been reached . Unlikely that there will be a conventional war in Europe , directly between NATO and Russia .