Sukhoi/HAL FGFA: News

Austin wrote:Indo-Russia fifth generation fighter aircraft will be completely new, not linked to Sukhoi T 50: Russia

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/57185821.cms

Rostec has said that it is worrying that faster progress has not been made by the Indian side to finalise the project.

"We have raised the matter at the highest level and had discussions at Aero India as well. What is worrying is that we are not yet taking the program ahead," Viktor N Kladov, Direct, International Cooperation, Rostec said, adding that he was hopeful that progress will be made this year to sign on the dotted line.

Russia is keen to differentiate the Indian project with its ongoing T 50 fighter jet program. "The Indian FGFA is not a copy cat of the T 50, it will be a new aircraft that will also have some technologies from the T 50. If India had wanted the T 50, we would not be working on a new aircraft (FGFA) program," Kladov said.

Answering a query by ET on whether the Russian side would be willing to work on integrating a western engine to the fifth generation aircraft (Russia has been facing delays due to this), the executive said that such an approach would not be practical due to the history of sanctions by western powers. "Even in our plans to develop a new commercial aircraft to take on Boeing and Airbus, we are insisting on our own engine due to the past sanctions. In a military project these concerns are even more

This is no sense. The Indian FGFA program , is nothing more than a 2 seat version of Pak-Fa with modifications on its avionics and other small things. In fact it was stated ,by Indian Engineers, that the major problem that India had with Pak-fa ,is that Russia does not wants to give India the blue prints of everything and that they felt ,they were only buying something and that Russia was not aiding India into designing their own stealth plane. With the money India is spending in FGFA , you cannot ask for a brand new stealth plane from zero. So the "completely new" plane is bullshit.
Perhaps he says that for Public relations only. But is not true.  India is NOT designing FGFA in any way. They not even could design a 4th generation plane on their own , and to think they will now build a 5th generation stealth plane is nonsense. And neither Russia will do a brand new plane for just  ~500 millions dollars that India already gave Russia.
That is pennies. you cannot design a new stealth plane with so little . So in short FGFA will be just a 2 seat version of Pak-fa that will neither be better or worse.. will be equal in performance but will be customized in a different way. The thing India can do to the project it is on its Avionics if they wanted fancy lights. but even here India will have major problem , because all the electronics in Pak-fa and FGFA will have to be very strong and resistant to Counter electronics and Jamming ,and heavy use on Photonics technology that India have no Experience at all.  
So It will be a major Risk for Russia to starting from zero ,a new plane that Russia Dont need ,and India is not paying enough for it. thats non sense.  Russia will just use Pak-fa as Reference ,add two seats cabin and modify it here and there according to India preferences. and thats it.   If FGFA is a new plane now,.. developed by Russia , then i have not seen any new multibillionaire deal anywhere , with India giving many Billions $$ to finance the research of a new stealth plane.  Using Pak-fa design ,and modifying from it , will significantly reduce development time.  Starting a new stealth plane from zero , will mean India will NOT have a stealth plane in at least 2030.  Because it took Russia more than 10 years of research and testing for its Pak-fa plane. First prototype of pak-fa flew in 2010..and we are in 2017 and still not in service. So if Russia start a new plane now .. with a bit of luck , many billions dollars later ,it will take at least 10 years for India from ordering it , to get them fully tested and in service in their airforce.  So far the claims of FGFA being a new plane ,totally contradict every news in the last years of India and Russia disagreement with the project. India wants to give just a some money for the project and in change wants to learn how to build stealth planes on its own ,so it no longer needs to buy them from Russia. I don't think Russians will be so fools to agree with such bad deal. .Americans does not sell their F-22 not even to allies. 
and they are having a hardtime just to give India all the how's to build their latest modifications of F-16s. which India was interested to have too. India wants to know everything , how others build their planes ,submarines and warships and get it for nearly free the blueprints and training. This is not very fair at all. But unethical .

Can someone translate below article, it shows Indians being continuously on board since 2010 when Russia was developing this fighter, so there were some vested interests who were trying to derail this deal between India and Russia

The contract file for the approval of FGFA is going to be with Indian DM in 2 weeks

May 7 (PTI) After years of delay, India and Russia are likely to soon ink a "milestone" pact to finalise the detailed design for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and move ahead with the multi-billion dollar co- development project.

Government sources said almost all the ground work has been completed to finalise the deal for design of the jet as well as some other critical issues.

"The contract for the detailed design would be signed soon and that will be a major milestone. It should be signed in the second half of the year," a top official involved in the negotiations with Russia on the project said.

Asked whether India has linked the project to full-scale transfer of technology, the official, who requested anonymity, said both the countries are co-developers and India will have equal rights over the the technology.

"We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project. India has equal rights. We will have the wherewithal to continue production. We are equal partner in the project," he said.

In the negotiations for the project, India had insisted that it must get all the required codes and access to critical technology so that it can upgrade the aircraft as per its requirements.

In February last year, India and Russia had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides, along with the monetary commitments.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/8680004_India--Russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-gen-fighter-design.html

Pinto wrote:

May 7 (PTI) After years of delay, India and Russia are likely to soon ink a "milestone" pact to finalise the detailed design for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and move ahead with the multi-billion dollar co- development project.

Government sources said almost all the ground work has been completed to finalise the deal for design of the jet as well as some other critical issues.

"The contract for the detailed design would be signed soon and that will be a major milestone. It should be signed in the second half of the year," a top official involved in the negotiations with Russia on the project said.

Asked whether India has linked the project to full-scale transfer of technology, the official, who requested anonymity, said both the countries are co-developers and India will have equal rights over the the technology.

"We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project. India has equal rights. We will have the wherewithal to continue production. We are equal partner in the project," he said.

In the negotiations for the project, India had insisted that it must get all the required codes and access to critical technology so that it can upgrade the aircraft as per its requirements.

In February last year, India and Russia had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides, along with the monetary commitments.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/8680004_India--Russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-gen-fighter-design.html

Excellent, economies of scale mean that the PAK-FA will be a lot more economical now; as the FGFA will probably have overwhelming commonality with it.

flamming_python wrote:

Pinto wrote:

May 7 (PTI) After years of delay, India and Russia are likely to soon ink a "milestone" pact to finalise the detailed design for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and move ahead with the multi-billion dollar co- development project.

Government sources said almost all the ground work has been completed to finalise the deal for design of the jet as well as some other critical issues.

"The contract for the detailed design would be signed soon and that will be a major milestone. It should be signed in the second half of the year," a top official involved in the negotiations with Russia on the project said.

Asked whether India has linked the project to full-scale transfer of technology, the official, who requested anonymity, said both the countries are co-developers and India will have equal rights over the the technology.

"We are co-developers. There is nothing called technology transfer in this project. India has equal rights. We will have the wherewithal to continue production. We are equal partner in the project," he said.

In the negotiations for the project, India had insisted that it must get all the required codes and access to critical technology so that it can upgrade the aircraft as per its requirements.

In February last year, India and Russia had revived talks on the project after a clearance from then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Since then, a lot of issues related to work share, IPR and technology transfer among others have been sorted out between the two sides, along with the monetary commitments.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/8680004_India--Russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-gen-fighter-design.html

Excellent, economies of scale mean that the PAK-FA will be a lot more economical now; as the FGFA will probably have overwhelming commonality with it.

yes except that it would be twin seater now it will be economically more viable for both countries, looks like this deal will be signed in either october when Indian DM visit Russia or in year end When PM Modi visit Russia for annual summit

How much time will it take for fighters to see day of light in india after signing of the final deal ? may be first up few prototypes of Indian FGFA will be delivered

I sincerely hope that this project is as successful as Brahmos joint venture

All indian major news papers reporting this deal which is finally going to close successfully after years of ups and down


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-generation-fighter-design/articleshow/58561386.cms?from=mdr


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-russia-to-ink-deal-on-5th-gen-fighter-design/1/947859.html

India and Russia are expected to resolve their differences over the cost and work-share issues related to one of their most important defence projects, the co-development and production of the Sukhoi/HAL fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) during Defence Minister Arun Jaitley’s three-day visit to Russia from Wednesday.

An official source in Moscow said Jaitley will co-chair the 17th meeting of the India-Russia Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu on Friday.

‘’The meeting will review the entire range of military and military-technical cooperation issues between India and Russia within the framework of the special and privileged partnership between the two countries,’’ the source added.

Jaitley would also co-chair the first meeting of the high level committee on science and technology between the two countries with Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin during the visit. This is a newly established committee to discuss cooperation in high technologies.

The meeting will be held on the sidelines of the ‘Technoprom’ exhibition in the city of Novosibirsk. He will also address the main plenary session of ‘Technoprom’, which is a major annual science, technology and innovation exhibition in Russia.

The Defence Minister’s visit comes close on the heels of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s trip to Russia early this month to participate in St Petersburg International Economic Forum (SPIEF) and hold his annual summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Jaitley’s visit is being considered crucial as negotiations between the two countries over the FGFA have been stuck over a host of issues. Russia is said to be demanding an ‘unaffordable price’ as part of its share in the development of the fighter jet, given that the work-sharing agreement currently under discussions includes the transfer of sensitive Russian defence technology.

India, the source said, was not in a position to pay the huge money being demanded by Russia. Also New Delhi believes that it is co-develop of the aircraft and there is nothing called technology transfer in the project.

In 2007, India and Russia had inked an inter-governmental pact for the FGFA project. In December 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter, which is called in India as the 'Perspective Multi-role Fighter' (PMF).

http://www.thestatesman.com/india/opposition-looks-set-for-contest-in-presidential-poll-1497977273.html

The decks are clear for the ministry of defence (MoD) to sanction the long-delayed Indo-Russian project to jointly develop a cutting-edge “Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft” (FGFA).Business Standard learns that an Experts Group, headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, has submitted a report on July 7, finding that the FGFA project would be beneficial to India.

After MoD bureaucrats objected to the FGFA project on the grounds that it might duplicate, or hinder, the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), former defence minister Manohar Parrikar set up the five-person Experts Committee to consider this question.

After deliberating for six months, the Expert Committee has ruled there are no conflict lines between the FGFA and AMCA. In fact, the technological expertise that Indian engineers and designers would gain from working with Russian experts would feed positively into the AMCA project.

Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation, through its subordinate Aeronautical Development Agency, can continue designing the entirely indigenous AMCA – based on its experience in developing the Tejas light fighter.

New Delhi and Moscow signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) a decade ago, in October 2007 for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to partner Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau in developing and manufacturing the FGFA. Between 2010-23, HAL and Sukhoi spent $295 million each on a “Preliminary Design” phase.


Now, the two sides are required to sign an “R&D Contract”, which the MoD told parliament on July 5, 2013, would “define the total scope; the work share and responsibilities of each side; and the financial implications of the programme.”

Reliable sources tell Business Standard that India and Russia have negotiated a draft R&D Contract, which commits both sides to spending $6.1 billion on the project –$3.05 billion each.

While India has dragged its heels for a decade since signing the IGA, Sukhoi Design Bureau has already designed the basic flying platform, named Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or “Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation” (PAK-FA).

At least six PAK-FA prototypes are already participating in flight-testing and flying displays, such as at the recent Paris Air Show. The draft R&D Contract commits Sukhoi to build the eighth, ninth and tenth prototypes for flight-testing in HAL, by Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots.

That means that, if the R&D Contract is signed this year, IAF pilots could be testing FGFA prototypes in Indian skies by 2020.

HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, declined to comment on the Experts Group report, but told Business Standard that an early conclusion of the R&D Contract would allow HAL to play an important role in developing the PAK-FA flying platform into a combat effective FGFA for the IAF.

“If we join now, we will still get a significant part of the work share, thanks to delays in the PAK-FA project. HAL would co-design the avionics, including navigation systems, radars and weapon aiming devices. This is the heart of the fighter’s combat ability”, says Raju.

Delays in the PAK-FA’s development are attributable partly to hitches in designing a new, powerful engine that would let the fighter “super-cruise”, or travel at supersonic speeds on “dry thrust”, without engaging its fuel-guzzling afterburners. While engine-maker NPO Saturn has struggled to perfect a secretive new engine, dubbed the Izdeliye 30, the PAK-FA has been flying with the relatively underpowered AL-41FI engine – an uprated version of the Sukhoi-30MKI’s AL-31 engine.


However, at the Paris Air Show in July, Russian designers have claimed that the PAK-FA’s new engine would be ready to fly by December.


For the IAF, the FGFA project opens up the assured development of heavy fighters that will succeed the Sukhoi-30MKI, many of which have already completed 15-17 years in operational service. In the medium fighter category, the IAF would have two Rafale squadrons, possibly three if a follow up contract is signed for an extra squadron; and also three upgraded Mirage-2000 squadrons. In the light fighter category, there will be four squadrons of Tejas Mark 1A, and another light fighter for which procurement has been initiated. Amongst the contenders are the Swedish Saab Gripen E, and Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70.


The FGFA is equally crucial for HAL’s Nashik plant, which is now building the last 35 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters of the 272 fighters contracted by the IAF. At a build rate of 12 fighters per year, the Sukhoi-30MKI production line will be idle by 2020. It remains unclear how many FGFA units the IAF will eventually buy, but for HAL Nashik, a production order is essential.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/indo-russian-gen-5-fighter-gets-green-light-6-bn-negotiated-for-joint-r-d-117073000429_1.html

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201707311056036605-india-fifth-generation-fighter/

LM spreading the money around.


Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi   1 hour ago

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/10/20/indian-air-force-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/

It's a typical BS from everyone's favorite poo in the loo nation. Unamed source is key giveaway.

They been saying this shit for forever. The RCS of Su-57 isn't even disclosed so that is clearly made up.

But this circus has gone on long enough really.

So they will (try) buy the Pak-Fa (single seater), - cause they're not as dumb as they sound; but might NOT fund the FGFA and deposit that money on F-35 to coddle new BFF U.S? I wouldn't be surprised to see India try to do this.

The more reason NOT to buy into American shit at the Security Counsel when it comes to Iran. Can't kill your markets just to go along and not be an "impediment". Russians still dumb as a rock in many ways. Russia's-China relationship has a price, and that's India's natural reproachment to the U.S to counter-balance and become a pest to their rival (it's a multifacted relationship )..... that relationship requires, among many things, kissing the ring in certain ways = defense spending on American weaponry as one of the main kisses.

There is a lot of money Russia won't be seeing from India for a long while...... Meanwhile Western markets are on lock-down. Turkey and Saudi's don't make up for it - not in the near future. Hoping obviously that Turkey/Saudi's progressively buy more Russian equipment - as it's possible that the new agreements can be a one-off quid-pro-quo given the geopolitics (Turkey for Kurds/Saudi's for Iran/Oil)  -if the Russian's aren't careful to take this possibility into account given the rats they're dealing with and the alliances these countries are in). Pakistan will get China's crap for the most part. Natural partner is Iran given the geopolitics BUTTTTTTTTT.......

This deal will go through tho... doubt they'll fuck with the Russians this way. But future purchases for other array of defense products will be heavily contested/supplanted with the U.S.

with Ajai Shukla alert

The FGFA is dead... $8.63 billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/04/the-fgfa-is-dead-863-billion-advanced.html

That one was obvious. In the end, India will either be left with squat or they will end up doing the Su-30MKI - buying Su-57 aircraft that is fitted with what they need. I don't know why anyone would ever have been surprised. India buys usually off the shelf. Rarely do they invest in major projects that are not already in development (excluding Brahmos).

Austin wrote:with Ajai Shukla alert

The FGFA is dead... $8.63 billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/04/the-fgfa-is-dead-863-billion-advanced.html

Wow, i actually had some real hope for this one, i wonder what Pinto is gonna say?

AlfaT8 wrote:

Austin wrote:with Ajai Shukla alert

The FGFA is dead... $8.63 billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/04/the-fgfa-is-dead-863-billion-advanced.html

Wow, i actually had some real hope for this one, i wonder what Pinto is gonna say?

Yes this was coming since long that india wont partner and would rather like to buy off shelf 2-3 sq of su 57 and later the joint project could be revived if IAF suited changes are made in matured su 57

ATLASCUB wrote:So they will (try) buy the Pak-Fa (single seater), - cause they're not as dumb as they sound; but might NOT fund the FGFA and deposit that money on F-35 to coddle new BFF U.S? I wouldn't be surprised to see India try to do this.

The more reason NOT to buy into American shit at the Security Counsel when it comes to Iran. Can't kill your markets just to go along and not be an "impediment". Russians still dumb as a rock in many ways. Russia's-China relationship has a price, and that's India's natural reproachment to the U.S to counter-balance and become a pest to their rival (it's a multifacted relationship )..... that relationship requires, among many things, kissing the ring in certain ways = defense spending on American weaponry as one of the main kisses.

There is a lot of money Russia won't be seeing from India for a long while...... Meanwhile Western markets are on lock-down. Turkey and Saudi's don't make up for it - not in the near future. Hoping obviously that Turkey/Saudi's progressively buy more Russian equipment - as it's possible that the new agreements can be a one-off quid-pro-quo given the geopolitics (Turkey for Kurds/Saudi's for Iran/Oil)  -if the Russian's aren't careful to take this possibility into account given the rats they're dealing with and the alliances these countries are in). Pakistan will get China's crap for the most part. Natural partner is Iran given the geopolitics BUTTTTTTTTT.......

This deal will go through tho... doubt they'll fuck with the Russians this way. But future purchases for other array of defense products will be heavily contested/supplanted with the U.S.

f 35 is forgone case for India because of data link issues and logistical issues. Only viable option for india in 5th gen fighter is to buy fully developed 2-3 sq of su 57 and later think abut indianising it in a joint venture

Lots of geo political churning taking place but this fighter deal has nothing to do with politics till now. cant say about what happens in future if present govt is re-elected in india in 2019 then its going to be pro US as it has shown in its first term

Rarely do they invest in major projects that are not already in development (excluding Brahmos).

Well to be honest Brahmos was a joint Russian Indian programme to make an export friendly Onyx/Yakhont... which is all the Brahmos really is...

The FGFA is dead... $8.63 billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/04/the-fgfa-is-dead-863-billion-advanced.html

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/987161267004682240


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The Indo-Russian 5th-Gen fighter is dead. National Security Advisor Ajit Doval asks the Russians to go ahead on their own. The door has opened a chink (no puns please!) for the F-35 Lightning II's prospects in India. One more link with Russia is cut.


US Pressure may be at work here

US Pacific Command chief seeks to break down Russia's influence in India

I doubt it has to do with us influence because India showed very little interest in US jets to begin with. But if there is a hint because of US influence, then that brings the whole of India's soverignty at major risk. But I doubt it, simpy because India is still buying Russian gear and developing Russian tech.

I think it has more to do with India changing habits and prioritizing on getting new jets now rather than later. And in this case, 110 jets.

Isos wrote:That's for the best for russia.

India with FGFA could have be able to build its own 5th generation fighter. The west doesn't share with them technology about their 4th generation fighters which are not even produced anymore. We saw how it ended with rafale program, 0 ToT.

If they get f-35 its gonna be the worst export version possible not able to attack US or british fighters.

So they will end up buying export downgraded su-57 while chinese could also buy some so they won't have any advantage over them.

At the end Russia will keep india as a client.

The worst is price. They give billions for a couple of rafale but don't INVEST6 billion  in a 5th generation they could produce with their own industry.

Totally agree. The Indian officials seem to care more about pretending and saving face than about the interests of their country, the less Russia gets involved in that circus the better.