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    RCS of Fighters Calculation

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    RussianStalinist

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    RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  RussianStalinist on Sat May 07, 2011 9:23 pm

    Sorry if something similar to this has already been asked, but here it goes:

    On the Sukhoi website, they state that the RCS of the F-22 is 0.3sqm. An Indian General (I believe) said that the PAK FA had an RCS of 0.5sqm.

    The 0.3sqm for the F-22 contrasts sharply what America has said the rcs of the f-22 really is (they said something like 0.0001sqm). Why is this? Is it because Russia calculates rcs differently?

    If that's the case, then what would the PAK FA's rcs be if it was calculated using the Western method?

    Thanks for any answers!
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 08, 2011 3:13 am

    The US figure is likely the best figure for the aircraft at the specific frequency the design is designed to defeat.

    Unless it is a perfect sphere... which it clearly isn't, from different angles it will have different RCS figures.

    Needless to say it is perfectly visible in optical wavelengths and its cross section from above in optical frequencies is dozens of square metres... it is huge.

    The Russian figure is likely an average figure which gives an indication but is hardly accurate either.

    Average figures by their very nature are always wrong.

    If you have four people... two are 25 years old, one is 30 years old, and one is 6 years old... the average is 25 + 25 + 30 + 6 = 86 / 4 = 21.5.

    The average for the group is twenty one and a half years old yet none of the people are that age.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon May 09, 2011 2:37 am

    We can't speculate as of yet; these figures are so much surreptitious & Pak-FA test beds are tailored for aerodynamic testing & RCS figures aren't yet tested; that, one can plainly observe
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon May 09, 2011 6:57 am

    RussianStalinist wrote:Sorry if something similar to this has already been asked, but here it goes:

    On the Sukhoi website, they state that the RCS of the F-22 is 0.3sqm. An Indian General (I believe) said that the PAK FA had an RCS of 0.5sqm.

    The 0.3sqm for the F-22 contrasts sharply what America has said the rcs of the f-22 really is (they said something like 0.0001sqm). Why is this? Is it because Russia calculates rcs differently?

    If that's the case, then what would the PAK FA's rcs be if it was calculated using the Western method?

    Thanks for any answers!

    F-22 is far less than .3m^2. That is the RCS of a clean Rafale. F-22 is said to be marble to golf ball which is like .004m^2 at its largest. There is no official figure for F-22 but the references have been given by Lockheed. PAK FA RCS was stated by Sukhoi officials giving a debrief to Russian officials visting the production site on the dawn of their decision to sign the JV production MoU. Ajay Shukla reported they said .5m^2.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 09, 2011 9:05 am

    RCS is more than just shaping and materials.

    It is also about manufacturing quality and maintainence standard.

    An F-117 with a few screws not properly tightened can turn a tennis ball into a basket ball.

    Even water or ice on the airframe will effect RCS.


    It is very much governed by the law of diminished returns.

    It is a bit like speed... in the early 1950s designers started focusing on speed. Planes able to fly mach 3 and faster were designed in those years and it was simply thought that planes would just keep getting faster and faster and by the 1980s we'd have planes zipping around at mach 5 or more.

    The problem is that once you get to a certain speed things get harder... the best example is propeller driven aircraft. You get the biggest engine you can find and put it in your fighter. To get that plane to fly 100 mile an hour faster you need to double the engine power. If you double the engine power again you only get another 60 miles an hour faster. Double it again and you only get another 30 miles an hour in speed till eventually you double the engine power and the tips of the props are supersonic and instead of developing power or thrust they start developing noise and drag.
    The real unseen problem is that every time you double the engine power the cost goes up on a log scale.. first double in power = 10,000 dollars, second double in power is 100,000 dollars, third double of power is 1,000,000 dollars and the fourth is 10 million dollars etc etc.
    Pretty soon you are spending billions for a very small increase in performance.

    Look at the replacements for the F-15 and F-14... the F-16 and the F-18... they are both slower and shorter ranged than the aircraft they replaced and that was on purpose to keep costs down. The F-16 is a mach2 bird, and the F-18 is limited to mach 1.8 to keep the costs down... a choice was made at the design stage that the effort and cost to make both aircraft mach 2.5 birds wasn't worth it because modern fighters rarely travel at such speeds because it wastes fuel. By making them slower they possibly saved billions of dollars in design complication and operating costs.

    Clearly Sukhoi have decided that a super stealthy aircraft wasn't worth the extra cost and effort. The result is a much cheaper aircraft that might serve in rather larger numbers than the 189 odd F-22s.

    As technology improves reductions in RCS can be applied to further reduce the RCS of the design.

    Obviously there is also the possibility that the .5 squ m figure is a very conservative estimate, and of course being a single figure it is clearly an average anyway.
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    RussianStalinist

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  RussianStalinist on Tue May 10, 2011 4:09 pm

    How could the RCS of the PAK FA be that low? I think that Saab announced that the Gripen gets an rcs of something like 0.3sqm.

    I think that a plane designed with the intention of making it vlo would have a significantly lower rcs.
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    medo

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  medo on Tue May 10, 2011 4:24 pm

    How could the RCS of the PAK FA be that low? I think that Saab announced that the Gripen gets an rcs of something like 0.3sqm.

    I think that a plane designed with the intention of making it vlo would have a significantly lower rcs.

    We still don't know exact RCS. Maybe Sukhoi intentionally give to big RCS or that numbers go for shapes of the plane without coating when first prototype fly without colors. Also we don't know if PAK FA prototypes have RAM coating and if it is the same as the one for serial planes etc. We don't know even what will be actual RCS of serial Su-35, how than for serial PAK FA, which is designed for low RCS? The time will tell.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 12, 2011 2:10 am

    How could the RCS of the PAK FA be that low? I think that Saab announced that the Gripen gets an rcs of something like 0.3sqm.

    A Gripen clean with a RCS of 0.3sqm will be in trouble against a PAK FA armed with AAMs.



    The point is that the Gripen carrys weapons externally and while the PAK FA can it normally wont.

    Perhaps the 0.5sqm for the PAK FA is with external weapons?
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat May 14, 2011 9:04 am

    Uh, Carlo Kopp estimates that RCSs are:

    F-22: 0.00004 m2
    F-35: 0.0001 m2
    PAK-FA: 0.001 m2


    Those are all in the Frontal Section with X-band radars. In general, the design philosophy of the T-50 is not to be the stealthiest plane in the sky, but rather just stealth enough to get close where it'll win almost all the time v.s. the F-35 and have a chance v.s. the F-22.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat May 14, 2011 1:12 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Uh, Carlo Kopp estimates that RCSs are:

    F-22: 0.00004 m2

    this is new to me... commonly quoted figure is 0,0001 Sqm
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 15, 2011 3:20 am

    In general, the design philosophy of the T-50 is not to be the stealthiest plane in the sky, but rather just stealth enough to get close where it'll win almost all the time v.s. the F-35 and have a chance v.s. the F-22.

    Exactly... and the main purpose of setting the bar below the F-22 is so that it is not too expensive and while it is very unlikely that they will build as many T-50s as there are F-35s made, they will likely produce more than 189 T-50s.

    Mig and UAC keep talking about a light 5th gen fighter they are developing that is seperate from the Mig 1.42/1.44. They mention that actual production work will not happen till the T-50 is fully ready for production so that the new design doesn't delay the T-50. This perhaps suggests that by 2025 they might have a heavy and light 5th gen fighter pair... with UCAVs and probably a few Su-35/Mig-35.

    BTW isn't 35 a popular number... F-35, Mig-35, Su-35...
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon May 16, 2011 12:42 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    IronsightSniper wrote:Uh, Carlo Kopp estimates that RCSs are:

    F-22: 0.00004 m2

    this is new to me... commonly quoted figure is 0,0001 Sqm

    Tbh, I forgot the last number in the F-22's Front RCS figure but I only remember that it starts with 4 0s Very Happy
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:20 pm

    AFAIK, the Su-35's RCS (without Plasma stealth as it's a myth) is about 1 to 3 m2 on the front using X-bands. It has a very low RCS for a Russian plane, but compared to "comparable' European and American planes, they're very close RCS wise, but the Su-35 still has a slightly bigger RCS (Eurofighter estimated at 0.1 - 0.5 m2 , Rafale estimated at 0.1 - 0.2 m2 , and F-18 estimated at 0.1 m2)
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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:50 am

    AFAIK, the Su-35's RCS (without Plasma stealth as it's a myth) is about 1 to 3 m2 on the front using X-bands. It has a very low RCS for a Russian plane, but compared to "comparable' European and American planes, they're very close RCS wise, but the Su-35 still has a slightly bigger RCS (Eurofighter estimated at 0.1 - 0.5 m2 , Rafale estimated at 0.1 - 0.2 m2 , and F-18 estimated at 0.1 m2)

    How would you know what the Su-35s RCS is?

    You are just guessing and the fact you suggest it has a low RCS "for a Russian plane" shows you have a bias against Russian planes.

    By giving a hard figure you make it sound like you actually know when it is clearly a case of the opinion of someone who doesn't have a high opinion of Russian aircraft or their designers and engineers.

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:06 am

    The amusing part of RCS debate when I see those 0.1 m2 and 0.5 m2 for Eurofighter and Rafale is when PAK-FA chief designer mentioned that its RCS will be no worse than F-22 and will be 0.3 - 0.4 m2.

    Now considering PAK-FA is a fighter designed from ground up using shape optimised for Stealth , and Rafale and Eurofighter has no such requirenment when it was designed in late 80's , F-22 certainly did.

    Its really hard to see how Typhoon and Rafale can come up with those figures and its pretty meaning less for a fighter that cannot carry internal weapons but 10 -12 external HP , the careful stealth goes for toss.

    Truth be told only F-22 ,PAK-FA and JSF are stealth aircraft in true sense , while Typhoon , Rafale are just some best figures obtained at certain optimium angle for certain band and is more of marketing stuff. The best RAM in the world can still produce band specific stealth.

    For reference according in Yefim Gorgon latest book on Russian Strategic Aviation the rcs figures for Russian cruise missile KH-101 is 0.01m2 and 0.2-0.3 m2 for Kh-55/555
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:34 am

    GarryB wrote:
    AFAIK, the Su-35's RCS (without Plasma stealth as it's a myth) is about 1 to 3 m2 on the front using X-bands. It has a very low RCS for a Russian plane, but compared to "comparable' European and American planes, they're very close RCS wise, but the Su-35 still has a slightly bigger RCS (Eurofighter estimated at 0.1 - 0.5 m2 , Rafale estimated at 0.1 - 0.2 m2 , and F-18 estimated at 0.1 m2)

    How would you know what the Su-35s RCS is?

    You are just guessing and the fact you suggest it has a low RCS "for a Russian plane" shows you have a bias against Russian planes.

    By giving a hard figure you make it sound like you actually know when it is clearly a case of the opinion of someone who doesn't have a high opinion of Russian aircraft or their designers and engineers.

    Don't be so outright ignorant now.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35bm-design.htm

    Beyond these changes, radar absorbent material of greater durability allied with the structural changes, mean that it is expected that the RCS of the aircraft will be equivalent of a F-16, that is, around 1m (Reduced RCS (b/w F-16 (about 1m^2).

    If you didn't know that the Su-27 and it's derivatives have always had a larger RCS than their Western counterpart you aren't looking at their dimensions correctly.

    Austin wrote:The amusing part of RCS debate when I see those 0.1 m2 and 0.5 m2 for Eurofighter and Rafale is when PAK-FA chief designer mentioned that its RCS will be no worse than F-22 and will be 0.3 - 0.4 m2.

    Now considering PAK-FA is a fighter designed from ground up using shape optimised for Stealth , and Rafale and Eurofighter has no such requirenment when it was designed in late 80's , F-22 certainly did.

    Its really hard to see how Typhoon and Rafale can come up with those figures and its pretty meaning less for a fighter that cannot carry internal weapons but 10 -12 external HP , the careful stealth goes for toss.

    Truth be told only F-22 ,PAK-FA and JSF are stealth aircraft in true sense , while Typhoon , Rafale are just some best figures obtained at certain optimium angle for certain band and is more of marketing stuff. The best RAM in the world can still produce band specific stealth.

    For reference according in Yefim Gorgon latest book on Russian Strategic Aviation the rcs figures for Russian cruise missile KH-101 is 0.01m2 and 0.2-0.3 m2 for Kh-55/555

    You have to remember that there's a big difference between a PAK-FA and a T-50, one is stealthy, the other isn't. The Eurofighter and Rafale along with the Superbug probably got their low RCS ratings from either minimal or no external stores and plain good aircraft designing.

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:02 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:You have to remember that there's a big difference between a PAK-FA and a T-50, one is stealthy, the other isn't. The Eurofighter and Rafale along with the Superbug probably got their low RCS ratings from either minimal or no external stores and plain good aircraft designing.

    What is the BIG difference , PAK-FA is just a Russian Acronym for the project and T-50 is a prototype , much is JSF is for F-35 , they are are the same thing.

    You should note that when Eurofighter , Rafale were designed aerodynamic quality was the key driving point and not stealth , same for Su-35 which is an advanced flanker derivative which superior aerodynamic quality and not real attention to stealth beyond RAM coating and perhaps radar blocker if at all.

    Those are like great marketing figures , can make a good talking point but in real combat its advantage is not great but nominal.
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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:18 am

    If you didn't know that the Su-27 and it's derivatives have always had a larger RCS than their Western counterpart you aren't looking at their dimensions correctly.

    Actually the intakes on the F-15 are similar to the Tu-22M3 bomber... and the shape of them increased the RCS of the Backfire by 25%.

    The Mig-21 and Mig-23 did not have larger RCS than the F-4 and F-16s that were contemporary equivelents.

    The Mig-25 and F-15 are incredibly similar in external shape and most likely have near identical RCS.

    You insinuated all Russian aircraft had higher RCS than their european and US equivelents.

    The example you give... the Su-27 had US equivelents in the F-14 and F-15 which are hardly better in any respect. In fact the more modern blending of wing and fuselage on the Flanker should lead to better RCS characteristics than either the F-14 and F-15.


    BTW if you had read the first post you would know that when they mention plasma they are talking about a surface coating technique to apply a RAM coating to the aircraft and the weapons it carries.
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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:11 pm

    Stealth
    As mentioned earlier, Sukhoi learned that a large RCS does not help the plane, as such, to the refinement of the lines, Sukhoi allied other Stealth measures:
    _ Use of RAM layers throughout the structure.
    _ Treatment of the air inlets with a RAM layer with a thickness between 0.7 and 1.4 mm.
    _ Treatment of the face of the engine with RAM material
    _Treatment of the canopy with electro conductive materials that prevent reflection of radar waves.
    These measures mean a RCS between 0.7 and 1 m2.
    In terms of the thermal signature Sukhoi should have used ceramic materials in parts that reach higher temperatures, such as in the exhaust of the engine.

    http://sukhoitributeenglish.blogspot.com/
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:51 pm

    Austin wrote:
    IronsightSniper wrote:You have to remember that there's a big difference between a PAK-FA and a T-50, one is stealthy, the other isn't. The Eurofighter and Rafale along with the Superbug probably got their low RCS ratings from either minimal or no external stores and plain good aircraft designing.

    What is the BIG difference , PAK-FA is just a Russian Acronym for the project and T-50 is a prototype , much is JSF is for F-35 , they are are the same thing.

    You should note that when Eurofighter , Rafale were designed aerodynamic quality was the key driving point and not stealth , same for Su-35 which is an advanced flanker derivative which superior aerodynamic quality and not real attention to stealth beyond RAM coating and perhaps radar blocker if at all.

    Those are like great marketing figures , can make a good talking point but in real combat its advantage is not great but nominal.

    There are a couple of differences, one being that the PAK-FA has "unclean" engine intakes which increases it's RCS, and the other that, AFAIK, the PAK-FA doesn't have it's RAM yet, probably due to maintenance costs.

    You are correct in that the Eurofighter and Rafale's RCS are "nominal", but only because pretty much the world's Gen 4+ (or Gen 4.5, whichever you prefer) has tried to reduce it's RCS dramatically (with the F-15 Silent Eagle being the most dramatic). They won't fair that much better v.s. a full on Stealth plane, but it helps.

    GarryB wrote:
    If you didn't know that the Su-27 and it's derivatives have always had a larger RCS than their Western counterpart you aren't looking at their dimensions correctly.

    Actually the intakes on the F-15 are similar to the Tu-22M3 bomber... and the shape of them increased the RCS of the Backfire by 25%.

    The Mig-21 and Mig-23 did not have larger RCS than the F-4 and F-16s that were contemporary equivelents.

    The Mig-25 and F-15 are incredibly similar in external shape and most likely have near identical RCS.

    You insinuated all Russian aircraft had higher RCS than their european and US equivelents.

    The example you give... the Su-27 had US equivelents in the F-14 and F-15 which are hardly better in any respect. In fact the more modern blending of wing and fuselage on the Flanker should lead to better RCS characteristics than either the F-14 and F-15.


    BTW if you had read the first post you would know that when they mention plasma they are talking about a surface coating technique to apply a RAM coating to the aircraft and the weapons it carries.


    (If you noticed, I said Su-27 derivatives, don't go off topic with MiGs).

    Modern stealth adaptations to the F-15 would give it a far smaller RCS than even the "big modernization" of the Su-27, or in other words, make the F-15 stealthier than the Su-35. I'm not saying the Su-35 has a huge RCS like older Russian planes, I'm simply saying it's still larger than it's modern counterparts.

    Lastly, plasma stealth has been, and still is, a myth. There is no proof out there other than old Internet articles that the Russians are even pursuing it anymore. If you have any article or modern evidence that they are, please come forth. Otherwise, Plasma stealth remains to be a myth, and even if it were implemented, you can detect it's ion trail farther than you can see it on your radar.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:12 am

    You said (the Su-35) ...
    has a very low RCS for a Russian plane,

    Suggesting that Russian planes have high RCS.

    There are a couple of differences, one being that the PAK-FA has "unclean" engine intakes which increases it's RCS, and the other that, AFAIK, the PAK-FA doesn't have it's RAM yet, probably due to maintenance costs.

    It is a flying prototype... two of at least 12. Stealth is hardly going to be tested on every prototype... they can do that with models including full sized models, for the flying prototypes they are more interested in flight performance, engines, radar, systems integration, weapons etc.

    They won't fair that much better v.s. a full on Stealth plane, but it helps.

    If a LO wont fare much better than a normal 4th or 4.5 gen fighter then it doesn't help... making a plane is expensive and a compromise in design.

    Modern stealth adaptations to the F-15 would give it a far smaller RCS than even the "big modernization" of the Su-27, or in other words, make the F-15 stealthier than the Su-35.

    Can you back that up with evidence or is it just your opinion?

    The blended fuselage/wing design of the Flanker should already make its RCS from most angles smaller than that of the Eagle.

    Lastly, plasma stealth has been, and still is, a myth. There is no proof out there other than old Internet articles that the Russians are even pursuing it anymore.

    Don't really care what you believe, it was designed initially to generate ionised gas fields around warheads... there were articles in the 1990s just like there were articles about all sorts of things they wanted foreigners to invest money into to keep the programs going. Now the articles stop you can think the programs are dead all you want... happy in the secure knowledge that if it were even possible for a Russian to have an idea that might work, or that there is any alternative to the path the US has blazed in stealth technology that obviously you would be told on CNN or Fox News... because they have fair and balanced reporting and keep Americans well informed about things that matter.

    If you have any article or modern evidence that they are, please come forth.

    Wouldn't if I did... I don't think you are interested in such things for the same reasons I am. Would just say that the Russians were printing articles and putting out lots of info on scramjet research in the 1990s too... not so much now. All you hear is scramjet powered Brahmos II. If there were no collaborative program with India we wouldn't even hear about that. So that is proof they are not working on scramjet technology either.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:13 am

    GarryB wrote:You said (the Su-35) ...
    has a very low RCS for a Russian plane,

    Suggesting that Russian planes have high RCS.

    "suggesting" hahaha, did I not say Su-27 derivative as the conversation went on?

    There are a couple of differences, one being that the PAK-FA has "unclean" engine intakes which increases it's RCS, and the other that, AFAIK, the PAK-FA doesn't have it's RAM yet, probably due to maintenance costs.

    It is a flying prototype... two of at least 12. Stealth is hardly going to be tested on every prototype... they can do that with models including full sized models, for the flying prototypes they are more interested in flight performance, engines, radar, systems integration, weapons etc.

    No one's doubting that Garry, all I'm saying is that because no PAK-FAs that we know of have a complete Stealth package, you can't completely estimate it's RCS. Sukhoi's current claim (most likely without the 2 stealth features I mentioned) is probably based on a PAK-FA's shaping, which is also probably why Western Gen 4.5 planes have about the same RCS too.

    They won't fair that much better v.s. a full on Stealth plane, but it helps.

    If a LO wont fare much better than a normal 4th or 4.5 gen fighter then it doesn't help... making a plane is expensive and a compromise in design.

    Actually, a Su-35 will kill every Su-27 there are. A F-18E/F will kill every F-18 there are. A F-15SE will kill every F-15 there are. Gen 4.5 planes with some Stealth features are very much so better than their generic Gen 4 counterparts.

    Modern stealth adaptations to the F-15 would give it a far smaller RCS than even the "big modernization" of the Su-27, or in other words, make the F-15 stealthier than the Su-35.

    Can you back that up with evidence or is it just your opinion?

    The blended fuselage/wing design of the Flanker should already make its RCS from most angles smaller than that of the Eagle.

    For the Su-35's RCS estimate, look to the link above (1 m2 on the Front with X-band).

    And for the F-15SE's:

    "the Silent Eagle offers the same level of front-aspect stealth than the "international release version" of the JSF"
    http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/export-variants/f-15se-silent-eagle/1641-f-15se-differences

    Unfortunately I was unable to find a RCS estimate of the export F-35.

    Lastly, plasma stealth has been, and still is, a myth. There is no proof out there other than old Internet articles that the Russians are even pursuing it anymore.

    Don't really care what you believe, it was designed initially to generate ionised gas fields around warheads... there were articles in the 1990s just like there were articles about all sorts of things they wanted foreigners to invest money into to keep the programs going. Now the articles stop you can think the programs are dead all you want... happy in the secure knowledge that if it were even possible for a Russian to have an idea that might work, or that there is any alternative to the path the US has blazed in stealth technology that obviously you would be told on CNN or Fox News... because they have fair and balanced reporting and keep Americans well informed about things that matter.

    I don't care what your opinion is, I want facts!

    If you have any article or modern evidence that they are, please come forth.

    Wouldn't if I did... I don't think you are interested in such things for the same reasons I am. Would just say that the Russians were printing articles and putting out lots of info on scramjet research in the 1990s too... not so much now. All you hear is scramjet powered Brahmos II. If there were no collaborative program with India we wouldn't even hear about that. So that is proof they are not working on scramjet technology either.

    So you aren't denying there's no evidence that the Russians are even pursuing Plasma Stealth? Thank you.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:26 pm

    Look no need to be jingoistic what I know & every body can observe that Sukhois are large birds made by a different school of thought with a different take on contemporary technology & defence tactics. One must acknowledge that we cant giv exact figures regarding RCS of even the age old SR-71...however, what we can observe as general public that Russian planes in general are large & are accustomed to carry big loads of AAMs & thus have relatively high RCS (look I ain't giving any figures here)
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:32 pm

    Austin wrote:

    For reference according in Yefim Gorgon latest book on Russian Strategic Aviation the rcs figures for Russian cruise missile KH-101 is 0.01m2 and 0.2-0.3 m2 for Kh-55/555

    ...& now I assume you are going to provide a downloading link I love you
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    GarryB

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:51 am

    "suggesting" hahaha, did I not say Su-27 derivative as the conversation went on?

    You gave the Su-27 as an example and then compared it with later aircraft used in different roles like the Rafale and F-18, rather than the F-15 which is the only western aircraft directly comparable to it.

    Actually, a Su-35 will kill every Su-27 there are. A F-18E/F will kill every F-18 there are. A F-15SE will kill every F-15 there are. Gen 4.5 planes with some Stealth features are very much so better than their generic Gen 4 counterparts.

    We were discussing their effect against stealth aircraft where you suggested the upgrades were both useful and worthless.

    For the Su-35's RCS estimate, look to the link above (1 m2 on the Front with X-band).

    And for the F-15SE's:

    "the Silent Eagle offers the same level of front-aspect stealth than the "international release version" of the JSF"
    http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/export-variants/f-15se-silent-eagle/1641-f-15se-differences

    Unfortunately I was unable to find a RCS estimate of the export F-35.

    Totally worthless information for aircraft that carry weapons externally.

    I don't care what your opinion is, I want facts!

    Interesting you will accept opinions from the web links you post above but my opinion is worthless.
    Good to know.

    So you aren't denying there's no evidence that the Russians are even pursuing Plasma Stealth? Thank you.

    No I am not. But clearly we are drawing different conclusions from this fact.
    Now that they probably have proper funding what purpose would their be to publishing results now?
    Actually now that I think about it there was mention of using Plasma Stealth to reduce RCS that was to be applied to the Su-35 and Su-34. I have had a discussion on this forum about it with someone else, but I am not in the mood to help you find it right now. Normally I am happy to share info, but when things become argumentative and I am challenged to prove something wrong I sort of feel like I am being manipulated to be their library B!tch to search for info just to prove myself.
    I don't do that.

    You don't need to believe me... remaining ignorant is your problem, not mine.

    Look no need to be jingoistic what I know & every body can observe that Sukhois are large birds made by a different school of thought with a different take on contemporary technology & defence tactics.

    That is a bit of a generalisation. The Flanker is large because its mission requires range and a significant weapon load. The B-2 proves physical size has nothing to do with RCS. Is the Mig-21 a big plane? It was Russian, how about those big Sukhois like the Su-9 and Su-11, or the Su-7 for that matter.

    however, what we can observe as general public that Russian planes in general are large & are accustomed to carry big loads of AAMs & thus have relatively high RCS (look I ain't giving any figures here)

    Big weapon loads? Compare a Mig-29 with an F-18. A Mig-23 has a tiny front on profile.

    The article above talks about a coating that can be applied to external ordinance to reduce RCS too.

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    Re: RCS of Fighters Calculation

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