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    EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

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    George1
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:33 am

    Greek Parliament Approves Second Round of Austerity Reforms

    With a final vote of 230 in favor, 63 against, the Greek parliament has approved the second round of austerity measures, clearing the way for a third bailout package.

    Five ministers abstained from voting, while two were absent.

    The new measures include a streamlining of the civil justice process, cutting down on government costs. The reforms also institute a restructuring of bank liquidation, forcing failing banks to repay shareholders before customers.

    The new austerity measures are in addition to those passed last week which increase taxes and cut pensions.

    Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had pushed for the parliament’s approval, but a large number of his Tsipras’ own Syriza party went against those wishes during last week’s vote. After a major reshuffling of his cabinet, the majority of Syriza MPs still voted against the latest round of reforms.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20150723/1024943724.html#ixzz3ghIlYEJs


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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:10 am

    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    George1
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:41 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.


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    ExBeobachter1987
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:46 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.

    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:07 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    kvs
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:54 pm

    The Kiev regime is demanding investors take heavy hair cuts or it will default on all their loans. Will the EU demand that the
    Kiev regime do what it demanded of Greece? I will bet not. So why is partial debt write-off good for Ukraine and not
    allowed for Greece. This is a grotesque example of double standards.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-26/ukraine-prepared-to-suspend-payments-if-creditors-block-progress

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:03 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.

    GarryB
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:49 am

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    What I don't get is why are the banks so special... they made out loans in the hope of making a lot of money and when the bubble burst they suddenly found they owned a lot of houses that no body wanted that were priced well above their actual value.

    In the US the banks got a bailout of 750 billion dollars... but most of that was likely profit... margin they missed out on because the value of the houses they owned was not there in the first place.

    Let me explain...

    I have a house in a rich area and I want a mortgage against it so I can buy an even more expensive house some where else or it is my first house and while it is expensive the prices in the area keep going up so the bank will give me a loan of 1 million dollars because it thinks that if I can't pay it... and there is no way I can pay it... they can just seize the house and sell it in 2 years time for 1.5 million and not only get their money back but a nice profit too... so they loan people money.. whether they could ever pay it back or not... suddenly the market turns and prices actually go down, so I have my million dollar house that is now worth half a million and I lose my job.

    If I sell my house I still owe the bank half a million dollars but I have no where to live and huge mortgage repayments due... and no where to live.

    The US governments solution is to give the banks 750 billion dollars!

    no one goes to jail... most CEOs get nice fat bonuses... and the people who actually got screwed remain screwed...

    If loans and various funds are going to be used to bail out banks it should be by transferring the debts to the bail outers... and in most cases the bailers should be allowed to forgive the debt of those who will never be able to pay back their loans... if you can forgive the debts of banks then families should be given the same...


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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:18 am

    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    Sorry if I missed your reply George.

    The people have already lost most of their worth with this economy. The banking sector was and still is bankrupt in Greece, BECAUSE the current economy. I understand that you don't want to use the nuclear option. But by having a internal demand oriented economy you can't make it grow with exporter oriented strategies. The same kind of nonsense was done for the USSR. They were told to liberalize and so they did. Ask yourself, why China didn't liberalize until 2001?

    Now back to Greece. If you keep the current strategy, the repayment crisies will be only systemic. IE every 3, 6, 9, 12 months you will have such drama with a carousel of parties, zero growth, and even less repayments. What needs to be done, is help Greece with its most prosperous sectors, light transformation industry, Shipping and Tourism. But that would also mean recognizing that the Troïka and Eurogroup done Fucked UP. And that's the rub. The Eurogroup DOES. NOT. WANT. THAT. Because it has been doubed an "experts" group. And "experts" that fuck up that bad is something out of Lysenko's fiasco in the USSR, albeit Lysenko did actually manage to instill the basics of an Ecosystem to the Soviet agriculture (something the Europeans would only practice in the late 60's).

    Beyond that, having Greece "default" would also touch the base rate for the Euro. IE the borrowing cost for the EuroZone will go up, which would be a disaster for the German state among others. If the base rate gets higher, the borrowing gets costlier. IE the EFSF cost at the market is actually sup 0% yearly (like -0.0017%). If it gets up like up to 0.5% that would cost billions to the people that borrow through the new mechanism. Think about it. You think the EuroZone members and the rest of the EU would like to lose billions in repayment just for a haircut? Nope, they would make one of their suffer because the current cost is ZERO.

    You think this is about economy? Nope my friend, this is about finance and long accounts. Greece is just a nice pretext. Personally, I'd have Greece start working more with the local market (the Balkans and Turkey) instead of Western White Elephants, and yes that means a Greexit and a devaluation. Painful? Sure, but at least you'd see light. Now you'll only be able to expect an less elaborate version of Plato's Cave coupled with Sisiphus. The more you'll suffer to pay back the more you will be forced to borrow. Catch 22 on steroids.

    But the Germans do not want a Grexit, they're only fucking around with the other Europeans. The "surplus" states only want the others to quack in their boots. It's just an ideological coup doubled with a technocratic lie. But hey...feel free to not belive me.


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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.


    Have no hope. We will stay all together in a union long failed trying to support American interests to our last breath.

    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:08 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    George1 wrote:There is a misunderstood. There wasn't austerity suddenly in Greece imposed by EE. Greece economy had a deficit in 2010, -15%. And then it was need for a loan to save the economy. The austerity came as a result of loan repayment+the obvious situation to reduce the deficit. Greece has borrowed money from 3 different parties, European Central Bank - Eurozone countries - IMF. And in IMF shareholders except USA and European countries, are also Russia and China

    The austerity didn't came as loan repayment...the austerity came also because on 10 euros from EU/IMF/WB for 7 went to Bank recapitalisation and purge, 2 went to interests an 1 went to the Greek state. Austerity was a mean to hide the fact that this wasn't saving the economy, it was saving the EMU and the internal banking system. Not IN Greece, but in Europe. As for the reduction of the deficit, let us remind people that Greece reduced the deficit gardually by sacrificing the most profitable state owned entreprises, but yet the first round of privatisations didn't yield more than 6 billion Eur. This became a fire sale, just like at the end of the USSR. You don't privatize when in crisis, yet that's always when you're told to do it, because of typical market mentality.

    Greece hasn't borrowed actually, most of the money has directly gone from Creditor to Final debtor (banks) and back to...Creditors. While Greece is left with debts. Don't confuse debtor and guarantor. Same for Germany, it's a debt guarantor, it will borrow to repay the guarantees, given the rates are flat it will actually earn money, since the Greek state will always be a debtor to the EFSF. So when Germans say we risk money, they actually lie, but no one dares to contradict them, because of the overall political structure in Europe.

    so what do u suggest?? To let the banks bankrupt? and this would be social u think? If the banks collapse then a lot of people will loose their savings and a lot of enterprises that work with loans will also shut down.

    An end with horror is better than horror with no end.


    Greeks are too dumb and too coward to understand this.

    All people are this way. Just like the germans are exactly with such a stupid mindset. A good example is our "friend" Walther who does not see anything bad with US occupation of germany and the politics driving for a full tactical nuke confrontation against Russia and using germany as a human shield from where not only nukes but entire NATO logistics is performed while using eastern european slavic countries and meatshield with ABM's. No problem... according to him there are no benefits being souvereign and not warmongering against russia, corrupting our military with NATO crap, being prohibited to build any technologies that are considered tactical for own defence like IADS or corrupting and damaging germanies and all european countries economical sphere because US wants to sanction russia while they still remaining dependend on russian metallurgy and space program and their technologies, but of course let the stupid europeans and germans suffer of not selling stuff or buying stuff.

    No benefits of leaving a construct like EU that was designed to fail so it can squeeze all members out of their money and pay the money to private banks that have committed theft and that based on speculation with what they never had, like some gamblers are going broken into poker games with mafia bosses they promise to pay ten thousands if they let him play and that is the EU, while the retarded population of all countries are shouting bullshit along with our intelligent friend Walther that Greeks are lazy bomzhs that do not want take responsibility for their shitty economics missmanagement... sure they are to blame and IMF rains prosperity and gold bars for everyone without any strings attached that all leads through austerity to privatization to repay the interest and debts which was lend from IMF loans via FIAT money that came out of thin air without any counter value of precious metals or alike. Those filthy peasant greeks...we prosperous germans are so hard working that each year we are getting poorer and the percentage of pensioneers that gets either homeless or has to work till their 80's or has to apply for social benefits just to feed themselfs after working for 50-60 years. We have it so cozy here, do not leave the EU it is only going to be better.

    From the indoctrination and greek bashing i recommend for all greeks quit the fucking EU anyone that stands in the way, jail or let him disappear and by the time you recover which is within 5-10 years your economy will be on the upper branches while you can see the germans fall while blaming everyone else, so make yourselfs a good future and do not spoil this chance of laughing at the ignorant idiots that have been stupid enough to beLIEve anything the West has promised those billionaires of germans.


    Have no hope. We will stay all together in a union long failed trying to support American interests to our last breath.

    I don't think this can continue like this for a while without a haircut somewhere or an emission of IOU's and Greexit (prepared or not).

    If Tsipras is smart he starts preparing for IOU's and New Drachma. Slashes expenditure until march 2016 (finishes the printing of the new currency) and then refuses to repay until the haircut isn't discussed. Then boom, currency swap, IOU's, immediate amnesty law for fiscal exiles and what ever was in Euro becomes in drachma. See saw Recession for at least 5 years, then progressive rebound and this time, no EURO limitations and possibly the start of a substitution economy a la Turkish Lira. within a decade (2030) Greece would be back to 2012 levels of GPD with total self currency self reliance. Far better than the region and far better than paying back stupid amount of money they never received.

    Then we'll see how ze Germans will react. Something tells me Greece would offered half of Germany just not to blow the EMU to bits.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:32 am

    Greece and Creditors Agree to Budget Targets Ahead of Bailout Deal

    Talks between Greece and its creditors are ongoing ahead in the run-up to a deadline on August 20, when Greece must repay 3.4 billion euros ($3.7 billion) to the European Central Bank.

    Talks between the Greek government and its creditors have resulted in an agreement on the country's fiscal targets for the coming years, ahead of the deadline for Greece to buy back 3.4 billion euros [$3.7 billion] of it bonds from the European Central Bank, which mature on August 20.

    A source in the Greek government told Greece's media agency ANA that early on Tuesday an agreement had been reached, according to which Athens committed to spending cuts that will amount to a primary deficit of 0.25 percent of GDP in 2015, a 0.5 percent surplus in 2016, a 1.75 percent surplus in 2017 and a 3.5 percent surplus in 2018.

    The agreement on Greece's budget is the result of talks between Greek Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos, Economy Minister Giorgos Stathakis, the ECB, the International Monetary Fund and the European Stability Mechanism.

    On Monday Finance Minister Tsakalotos said during a break from the negotiations that the discussion" is going quite well."

    "There are issues [the creditors] want to discuss again and again, but I think there should be optimism that there will be a deal soon."

    Negotiations with the Troika also aim to finalize the list of new austerity measures the Greek government is required to impose in exchange for a tranche of funding of up to 86 billion euros [$94 billion] to stabilize Greek public finances struggling to cope with debt of 320 billion euros [$350 billion], about 175 percent of its GDP.

    The Eurozone leaders proposed the financial package at a summit on July 12-13, in return for hikes in the country's income tax and VAT, as well as spending cuts and economic reforms.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150811/1025611125/greece-creditors-bailout-budget-target.html#ixzz3ie8bPGFi


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    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:47 am

    With millions of ex Warsaw pact immigrants we never asked what Marxism means for a country. Greek illiterate masses kept flirting with leftist paranoia and now Greece is worst than ever. Really on the brink of the abyss.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:54 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:With millions of ex Warsaw pact immigrants we never asked what Marxism means for a country. Greek illiterate masses kept flirting with leftist paranoia and now Greece is worst than ever. Really on the brink of the abyss.

    Given your Right wing guys were worse at accountability, just allow silence to settle. Sure because it is Paranoïa that build a typical cartelist society in Greece? clown

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:05 am

    We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty everything that left stands for.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:34 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  kvs on Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:53 am

    Just to chime into this debate: in Canada it was the Conservatives who ran up the debt and the deficit during the 1980s
    while Liberal Trudeau was routinely smeared as being the reason for it. It was the Liberals under Chretien during the 1990s
    who restored the fiscal books and killed off the deficit. A similar process occurred in the USA. The large deficits left by
    the Republicans (Reagan and Bush Sr.) were wiped out by the Clinton Democrats. Bush Jr. messed that up big time with
    his tax cuts for the 1%.

    There is this pervasive myth that right wingers are fiscally responsible. Not in North America.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:27 am

    kvs wrote:Just to chime into this debate: in Canada it was the Conservatives who ran up the debt and the deficit during the 1980s
    while Liberal Trudeau was routinely smeared as being the reason for it.   It was the Liberals under Chretien during the 1990s
    who restored the fiscal books and killed off the deficit.    A similar process occurred in the USA.  The large deficits left by
    the Republicans (Reagan and Bush Sr.) were wiped out by the Clinton Democrats.   Bush Jr. messed that up big time with
    his tax cuts for the 1%.  

    There is this pervasive myth that right wingers are fiscally responsible.   Not in North America.

    Well not in France Either for instance (Imagine that. France the country that Right winger point their fingers at to deride socialism). The big issue with Conservatives around the damn Universe, is that make obvious choices at the worst moments.

    Take for instance Germany, they're in the midst of a very favourable period economically. Constervatives talking about fiscal orthodoxy yadda yadda bla bla bla. Well they haven't disbursed a single deutc...euro from their coffers to do that. They have simply rolled the damn debt. Why? Because the debt cost is lesser. That's fiscal responsibility 101...for the brave New World.

    So while Russians were paying back their foreign debt, Germany was mainly piling it up. Same Germany kicks the damn Greeks to the nut, while itself profits from this "crisis". Then we have political dildoheads that say, we need moar austerity.

    On the Conservative discharge, they are strongly impaired ideologically when it comes to crisis. Conservatives can't understand an external crisis. It's the theological syndrome (there's no other force outside your input and all humans have the same incentives) and tautological myth that you can do it by yourself. It's really scary actually.

    Therefore Conservatives tend to act in total contradiction with a constructivist system and tend to atomize the efforts that one needs to make to get out of the mark. But Ironically the steps taken in order to facilitate such blunders are made by "liberals". For instance the liberalization of the Banking sector, although it started under Johnson, the "coup de grâce" happened during Clinton. Same for France for instance. It were the French Socialists in the 80's that nationalized whole swathes of the economy, that were later sold for scrap to private groups, which in return are having France by the balls. Se Germany. It was Schroeder that fucked up most of the worker's status with his Härtz reforms...Same for Tony Bliar, supposedly taking a turn from Thaetcher and Major, he litterally prepared the way for the Tories to slash and burn what ever was left of the non vital welfare state. Which in return happened to profit to the Banks...

    Greece is a textbook example of this Marke/Financial madness. One you'd find in Africa or Cental America back in the 1990's.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:38 am

    Actually, according to a number of opinions, EU left-wing parties has long been corrupted and gradually become the puppets of White House. They keep telling lies and lies about protecting the rights of working class but do nothing in reality, they just lick the a** of Obama and other D.C. masters.

    Personally I no longer care about political factions, whether left or right. In most of the cases they are liars. The only thing I care is who can build a clean and effective public fund which is 100% used to change the society and improve the technology and production power.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:57 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.


    New Demogracy opened the borders to some 500.000 illegal immigrants from Albania which was pretty much the end of Greek labor and the final blow to the security funds.
    If this is not enough for you, New Democracy was the very first and only party until very recently that made a coalition government guess with whom...the communist party (KKE).
    Yeah the very fking communists you say they are fighting etc. Since then they have made a coalition WITH EVERY leftist party in Greek parliament. Yeah every single one of them!
    Now please stop pretending that you know Greek affairs better than me, you can probably take a Greek nationality if you like (yeah nationality not citizenship!) in an hour because this leftist scam try to destroy Greek nation, but this doesn't make you an expert on the matters of Greece.

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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:56 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:We don't have right wing here. Everyone is left wing. Same story about everywhere in EU. Corruption, multi-nationalism, illegal immigration, US culture, atheism, supernational laws, ever decreased sovereignty  everything that left stands for.

    Yeah because Nea Dimocratia was Right Wing in scope or belief. Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Karamanlis litterally towed Greece in the European Economic Community against the left wing so as to "Save Greece from Communism". Typical ramblings from Libertarians. I'm affraid you're not Greek to the least of it.


    New Demogracy opened the borders to some 500.000 illegal immigrants from Albania which was pretty much the end of Greek labor and the final blow to the security funds.
    If this is not enough for you, New Democracy  was the very first and only party until very recently that made a coalition government guess with whom...the communist party (KKE).
    Yeah the very fking communists you say they are fighting etc. Since then they have made a coalition WITH EVERY leftist party in Greek parliament. Yeah every single one of them!
    Now please stop pretending that you know Greek affairs better than me, you can probably take a Greek nationality if you like (yeah nationality not citizenship!) in an hour because this leftist scam try to destroy Greek nation, but this doesn't make you an expert on the matters of Greece.

    Yah...because the 500K Albanians came there overnight. Statistically NET Albanian migration into Greece went from ~20000 in 1992 to 25 000 in 1997. With at least 200 000 deportations a year. The biggest year, 1998 saw about 55 000 NET Albanians come in (that year Greece deported 300K Albanians despite regularization laws).

    ND making part with Socialists? Lel? Is this for real? Ahahahahahahahaah. C. I don't know who the hell you are, but next time you tell me you're Greek you better show me some evidence, because this looks like immigrant rants out of Astoria.

    There's been a bitter fight between ND and PASOK since the 74 elections and one thing that Greek politicians have always done, is keeping any possible "Union" Government out of sight. Until they fell falt on the Crisis issue. To achieve that both two parties have been changing the Electoral code and been gerrymandering so much that Greece looked like huge Swiss cheese electorally. Now STFU or provide me evidence of All-Leftist politics from ND. I'm ready to hear any...


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    Re: EU, ΙMF and Greece and Spending cut

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:44 pm

    $15.8 bln Needed to Cure Greek Banks - ECB

    The European Central Bank has checked the finances of four major Greek banks, and identified a capital shortfall of up to 14.4 billion euros ($15.8 billion).

    Four major Greek banks must raise capital totaling up to 14.4 billion euros ($15.8 billion) in order to be able to resume normal banking business, the European Central Bank (ECB) announced on Saturday.

    The ECB carried out a review of the four banks as part of an agreement reached between Greece and its European creditors in August, which set out the conditions of the EU's three-year financial assistance program to provide up to 86 billion euros in assistance to the country via its European Stability Mechanism.

    The agreement underscored that the recapitalization of Greek banks, which are still hampered by restrictions on cash withdrawals and cross-border payments, will be a key pillar of the country's economic recovery. It envisaged that it would be necessary for up to 25 billion euros of the loan to be used to meet their potential capitalization needs.

    The ECB assessment examined data from four banks, Alpha Bank, Eurobank Ergesias, the National Bank of Greece, and Piraeus Bank, which as of the end of June 2015 had total group assets of 296 billion euros, accounting for approximately 90 percent of total banking assets in Greece.

    The review assessed their balance sheets using a range of economic scenarios which could transpire over the coming three years, including a baseline scenario, which would require another 4.4 billion euros in capital, and an adverse scenario, which would necessitate up to 14.4 billion euros through the end of 2017.

    The adverse scenario envisages the possibility of a more severe downturn in the Greek economy. In such a scenario, consumer and business confidence would drop further in response to restrictions on cash withdrawals from deposits and on cross-border payments.

    In addition, a turbulent end to the ESM financial assistance program, and increased political uncertainty would also hit confidence in the economy. As a consequence, there would be a reduction in private consumption and fixed investment, which would negatively impact the property market, reducing demand and prices for real estate.

    The four banks now have to propose capital plans to the ECB which will cover the entire 14.4 billion euro shortfall, out of which a minimum of 4.4 billion is expected to be covered with private means.

    "Covering the shortfalls by raising capital would then result in the creation of prudential buffers in the four Greek banks, which will facilitate their capacity to address potential adverse macroeconomic shocks in the short and medium term and their capacity to improve the resilience of their balance sheet, keeping an adequate level of solvency," wrote the ECB on Saturday.

    The Greek parliament approved a bank recapitalization bill on Saturday, according to which lenders will seek to raise capital from shareholders and bondholders, before turning to the 25 billion euro buffer provided by the agreement with the nation's creditors.

    The Greek government wants to complete the recapitalization of the banks before the end of 2015, after which a new European directive on bailouts will come into force, and impose a haircut on bank deposits in Greece over a limit of 100,000 euros.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151101/1029425823/greek-bank-bailout-ecb.html#ixzz3qKyllChx


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