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    Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

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    lulldapull

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    Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  lulldapull on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:16 pm

    Hey guys this should be an interesting topic as there has been a lot of negative publicity about the RSU-2S, Bisnovat K-5/ K-8, R-23 and the R-40.

    I am starting this topic with a very nice article about the performance of down graded Mig-23MS/ MF and the ML Floggers and their R-23 complement.

    Notice in the article when the Mig-23ML's were delivered the Syrians shot down 3 F-15A's and more F-16A's, and suffered no losses!

    These clashes over the Bekaa Valley also show that the ML/ MLD was a powerful warplane and the first actual recorded use of the IRST/ FLIR in combat.

    I plan on posting later for the R-27, R-33 and the R-40.

    Have a read:

    http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id11.html
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:45 am

    i have read the article.. pretty nice indeed..

    So Where are the others you promised mate ? ..i'm waiting

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:25 am

    @Garry

    When you gave me the example of MiG-21 as NOT being a large plane you are right; & that is why (its smaller size) that makes it a good potent & LO fighter in those dog-fighting days. See this interview


    However, with the advent of AAM & intelligent seekers/homers it can be easily observed that Russian school of thought stressed upon the payload capacity & the big nose mounted radars to discover their enemy. In contrast the US school of thought (& may be because their AAMs weren't at par with the Russian equivalents) stressed upon evading the radar & sneak up to the enemy instead of locating it from BVR
    Also I must mention that RAM coating effect on RCS isn't that profound as you might be thinking. Coating J-10s, F-15/18 with lots of RAM can't make them LO as near to that of F-117 or even F-35...or had it been that right drastic aero changes (like wetted wing, internal bays) would not have been incorporated in silent F-15
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    Kyo

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:42 pm

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    Ranxerox71

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    Discussion which is become very frustrating on Serbian My City MILITARY forum

    Post  Ranxerox71 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:47 am

    First to say greetings to all Russians and they (thank God) firm and decisive decision to practically become Last Bastion of Main human Freedom and that is freedom of choice...
    We on the MY city Military Forum have one discussion and question on which almost nobody can to give proper answer, which issue is main topic.
    n the last Three years when Russians industry of Airplanes and Helicopters for Russian VVC become to the rate of producing from USSR , by numbers per year of various models of Airplanes, Something is become very obvious for every one of as which whit big antention watch every new delivering of does Su34, Does Su35C, Does Su30CM, Does Ka52 heli Mi28N and etc, we are comes to conclusion that 99% of all pictures from various drills even avia darts in last two years shown only firing of so called unguided propel rockets, How to say that and that not be offensive, Watching as i said SU34 which is presented like state of the Art Machine whit various means of sighting how firing unguided rockets which was exist in WWII, is kind of shame, O.K i can understand that for young pilots(Letčik) is good exercise, because he first must put the whole plain in very precise position (where he learn to fly whit plane under some pressure in narrow time frame of engagement, and then Sturman must firing in to right moment those Old kind of weapon About Su30 or Su35C that is sad to watch, neither video clips from various helicopter drills and firings, we can't see firing of some sophisticated guided Attaka or Vikhr or Igla or what ever again 99,9% is Unguided propelled Rockets together whit machine gun, Ok lets say that for Helicopters it is more natural or should i said more relevant even in real conflict choice of weapon because Helicopters flying low and fast, etc, But for AirPlanes except Su25 which is kind of successor of IL2 Sturmovik like Flying tank, Watching How almost all brand new or modernized Airplanes have on pilion those containers and firing from them is like watching for example future Armata how just firing smoke grenade.and nothing else.
    Again please that really isn't my intention to over estimate potential of Russian Air force, but does somebody can explain why we have not opportunity to watch much more often firing of V-v missiles (their testing especially because there is so much talk about new versions of some famous VV or AA(on english ) missiles) also case is whit Other types of Airplanes missiles, Only what can be found on You tube is several short clips whit firing some V-P Missiles from unpainted Su30(i think that is old recording of testing for purpose of Su30MKI) We have discussion about those obvious "problem" for as like lovers of Russian planes and weapons, somebody said that simply stock piles of those 80mm and 10mm unguided rockets is so wast that they simply wish not to trouw them , because they are still correct training for young pilots in engagement of plane on which he goes thru training, But Again there is opinions that new models of promised new models of missiles for different purpose, and use, simply isnt finished, And that they now hang onto pillon old missiles will be mistake because that would shown that Russian AF isn't yet get missiles especially A-A or V-V in the class of MBDA Meteor or MICA, or AIM9x etc, Except Cryptonit which is missiles against Radars and long range Kh55 for MiG31 which until this day have not Analog in to west, But which is also Old missiles, RF wasnt yet get neither one brand new missile for any type or purpose, until China and India (especially China) every year represent two or three new missiles , which that thing be worst is mainly missiles on base of old USSR Missiles, But whit help of new possibility of electronics and smaller and smaller, whit greater and greater resolution optical heads, more sensitive IR heads, and etc They really have not problem to introduce those new ordinance very fast in they operational squads and etc...For all this reason i really will be extremely greatfull that somebody who have little more knowledge and some insight in industry of mention weapons it self what is happen whit Russian industry of promised new missiles of all type's and purposes, and does those whit out stopping trainings of newest Airplane on so called live munition is stucked whit NRZ because command wish that huge stock piles will be spend at least for some significant percent or problem is of mentioned second nature.
    once more greetings to All People which think that Russia (together whit China) is only countries which can save as all from global slavery .Thanks again to the Russian people because they will not sold it self for McDonalds and other rubbish.
    P.S
    Then Again maybe we are just projected our wishes to watch more practising whit smart bombs, V-P Missiles, V-V and similar
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:32 am

    IMO the answer is to do with the fact that the new PGM's haven't been introduced in service yet in numbers....going by interviews of weapons producers from a couple of years ago, they were suppose to start delivering the new stuff this year...so we will see.

    As for the "aviadarts' competion, it will probably remain with unguided staff as the aim is to test the gunnery and bombing skills of the crews

    nastle77

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    Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:50 pm

    The Mig-31 in  soviet times carried the earlier models of the R-33 ( i.e before 1990)

    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    2-Can it be used against anti-ship missiles like Harpoon ?

    3-Can 4 of them be launched against separate targets at the same time ?

    4-Was it tested against fighter sized targets ?

    If anybody has details of the tests that would be great
    Thanks

    nastle77

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:58 pm

    ^ thanks cucumber Khan


    In fact it is the poor performance of missiles at low altitudes that led to the Soviet and Russian practise of fitting IR seekers to BVR missiles on their fighters.
    From a high altitude high speed launch an R-27E model AAM can hit a target that is 80kms away at the time of launch. At low altitude that figure is more like 20kms... which sounds bad till you realise that for a Sidewinder class missile can barely reach a quarter of that at low altitude.
    Of course the other reason was that BVR IR guided weapons complimented radar homing weapons of all types. A closing target can be fired upon from long range with a radar homing missile but a receding target is hard to get a lock on and so lock on range for a radar homing missile is much shorter. For an IR guided weapon a receding target is showing its engine exhausts and it is the ideal lock on angle for an IR missile... the only problem is that small IR guided missiles lack the legs to chase down a target heading away from you so BVR IR missiles are ideal.

    Didn't the soviets also have the IR options for the AA-7 Apex and AA-7 acrid as well ?
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    Berkut

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Berkut on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:52 pm

    nastle77 wrote:The Mig-31 in  soviet times carried the earlier models of the R-33 ( i.e before 1990)

    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    2-Can it be used against anti-ship missiles like Harpoon ?

    3-Can 4 of them be launched against separate targets at the same time ?

    4-Was it tested against fighter sized targets ?

    If anybody has details of the tests that would be great
    Thanks

    What do you mean by "earlier" models of R-33? The R-33 is used today is basically the same that was used in the 80's. In fact i am not sure if new R-33's has been produced since early 90's, maybe not counting R-33S... So your questions apply to today too.

    1 - Yes. In fact they test use it for that purpose about yearly for the last few years. They last did it in may.

    2 - No. (<-original answer but i misread the question, so my new answer is "I don't know, but possible")

    3 - I can't remember for sure with vanilla MiG-31's, but yes, i believe this could be done even with them. With BM's, certainly.

    4 - Yes.


    Last edited by Berkut on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total

    nastle77

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:11 am

    Berkut wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:The Mig-31 in  soviet times carried the earlier models of the R-33 ( i.e before 1990)

    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    2-Can it be used against anti-ship missiles like Harpoon ?

    3-Can 4 of them be launched against separate targets at the same time ?

    4-Was it tested against fighter sized targets ?

    If anybody has details of the tests that would be great
    Thanks

    What do you mean by "earlier" models of R-33? The R-33 is used today is basically the same that was used in the 80's. In fact i am not sure if new R-33's has been produced since early 90's, maybe not counting R-33S... So your questions apply to today too.

    1 - Yes. In fact they test use it for that purpose about yearly for the last few years. They last did it in may.

    2 - No.

    3 - I can't remember for sure with vanilla MiG-31's, but yes, i believe this could be done even with them. With BM's, certainly.

    4 - Yes.
    thanks
    is there a way to get some articles on those tests ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:35 am

    Pretty much all in service Soviet AAMs... AA-2, AA-3, AA-6, AA-7, and AA-10 has IR and SARH versions... later models even had a passive radar homing to lock onto the nose radar of aircraft guiding SARH missiles.

    The AA-8, AA-9, and AA-11 did not have both options... AA-8 and AA-11 were IR only and the AA-9 was SARH only.

    AA-12 and AA-13 also seem to be only ARH (The inservice ones seen so far anyway).


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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:36 pm

    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    It would have been rather effective against cruise missiles... they pretty much fly straight and level most of the time and do not defend themselves.

    Performance against an enemy bomber would be less impressive.

    2-Can it be used against anti-ship missiles like Harpoon ?

    It would not matter what sort of missile it was I presume... a Harpoon cruising to its target area would be very similar to a strategic nuclear cruise missile...

    3-Can 4 of them be launched against separate targets at the same time ?

    Yes, and over a much more widely separated area than the F-14/Phoenix could manage due to the electronically scanned PESA radar.

    4-Was it tested against fighter sized targets ?

    Its primary role was against cruise missiles and large aircraft like bombers or AWACS aircraft. It would not be ideal against a fighter aircraft.

    If anybody has details of the tests that would be great

    I seem to remember a test where a MiG-31 was flying at 6,000m and engaged a target 20km away that was flying at 20m altitude int he late 1980s.

    Nowdays I suspect they will be transfering to R-37M missiles which can engage 8g targets so would be much better able to engage enemy fighter aircraft as well as missiles and bombers/AWACs/JSTARS/tanker aricraft.


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    Giulio

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Giulio on Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:38 am

    nastle77 wrote:The Mig-31 in  soviet times carried the earlier models of the R-33 ( i.e before 1990)

    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    Thanks

    Against subsonic "conventional" cruise missile you can use also infrared missiles, as already written a cruise missile does not defend itself, except with the low flight with terrain following. The problem are above all enemy bombers, their stealthiness and their ecm and eccm. The ecm could make invisible a bomber almost as much as the stealth. But above all if you hit the enemy bombers at a distance greater than the range of their missiles, you don't need to chase enemy cruise missiles. E.g. if a cruise missile has a range of 500 miles, you must hit the bombers before they arriving whitin 500 miles from their target. I think that an r-33 missile for an enemy cruise missile is a waste. If you hit a bomber you can hit up to 20 cruise missiles at once. On the sea I think it is different because the cruise missiles like the as-4 are high supersonic.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:22 pm

    I think that an r-33 missile for an enemy cruise missile is a waste. If you hit a bomber you can hit up to 20 cruise missiles at once. On the sea I think it is different because the cruise missiles like the as-4 are high supersonic.

    Waste is the wrong word... firing an R-33 missile at an enemy cruise missile will stop that nuclear warhead from destroying a city or base... it would be well worth the effort.

    It would not be an efficient way to deal with a large scale attack, but it would be worth it if it came down to it... remember the US does not have any supersonic bombers coming over the north pole, so the MiGs might have the chance to fly out and intercept and then return to a nearby base and attack again...

    On the sea I think it is different because the cruise missiles like the as-4 are high supersonic.

    Ex Soviet anti ship missiles would be a difficult target because of their speed, but most western anti ship missiles are subsonic.


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    nastle77

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:00 am

    GarryB wrote:Pretty much all in service Soviet AAMs... AA-2, AA-3, AA-6, AA-7, and AA-10 has IR and SARH versions... later models even had a passive radar homing to lock onto the nose radar of aircraft guiding SARH missiles.

    The AA-8, AA-9, and AA-11 did not have both options... AA-8 and AA-11 were IR only and the AA-9 was SARH only.

    AA-12 and AA-13 also seem to be only ARH (The inservice ones seen so far anyway).

    How effective was the R-60 AA-8 as an IR weapon ? DId it have an all aspect capability ?

    nastle77

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:35 am

    GarryB wrote:
    1-How effective was it against cruise missiles ? was it ever tested against them ?

    It would have been rather effective against cruise missiles... they pretty much fly straight and level most of the time and do not defend themselves.

    Performance against an enemy bomber would be less impressive.

    2-Can it be used against anti-ship missiles like Harpoon ?

    It would not matter what sort of missile it was I presume... a Harpoon cruising to its target area would be very similar to a strategic nuclear cruise missile...

    3-Can 4 of them be launched against separate targets at the same time ?

    Yes, and over a much more widely separated area than the F-14/Phoenix could manage due to the electronically scanned PESA radar.

    4-Was it tested against fighter sized targets ?

    Its primary role was against cruise missiles and large aircraft like bombers or AWACS aircraft. It would not be ideal against a fighter aircraft.

    If anybody has details of the tests that would be great

    I seem to remember a test where a MiG-31 was flying at 6,000m and engaged a target 20km away that was flying at 20m altitude int he late 1980s.

    Nowdays I suspect they will be transfering to R-37M missiles which can engage 8g targets so would be much better able to engage enemy fighter aircraft as well as missiles and bombers/AWACs/JSTARS/tanker aricraft.

    Thank you !
    If a fighter sized target is laden with weapons and cannot maneuver then I guess it might be easier, and if it jettison its weapons to take evasive action then I guess it serves the purpose ?
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    GarryB

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    Soviet AA missiles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:06 am

    Like all missiles it evolved over time and its performance improved.

    It is my understanding that the R-60M had all aspect homing, earlier versions did not.

    It was a good missile but not in the same class as the much larger Sidewinder which had twice the weight...

    It was carried by a wide range of aircraft as a self defence dogfight missile and in that role it was certainly a very good missile.

    the larger heavier R-73 was a vastly more capable system with its high off boresight seeker and link to its helmet mounted cueing system.

    Very simply the difference in combat would be that the pilot with R-60M would turn his entire aircraft towards the target and place the target in the centre of his HUD like a gun... and press a button to get a lock. Once lock was acquired the missile was launched and the aircraft was then free to manouver again. While trying to get a lock you would need to manouver the aircraft to follow the target and keep it within about 20 degrees of the nose.

    In comparison the R-73 can be locked by radar or IRST or helmet sight... the missile is powered up and the blinking crosshair in the monocle in front of the pilots eye is simply placed on the target by the pilot looking at the enemy aircraft.... the missiles seeker will turn to the target and when it gets a lock the reticle crosshair will stop flashing and the pilot can fire the missile and then carry on doing what they were doing...

    The R-60 remained in service on some aircraft like the Su-24 and Su-25 as a self defence weapon because of its small size and light weight, while aircraft like the very early MiG-29s that carried the r-60 had them replaced by the R-73 when production was large scale enough to provide enough for all the in service units.

    Eventually the R-73 has replaced the R-60 in most applications because it is rather more capable.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:31 am

    Called a mission kill, where the enemy aircraft is not shot down but has to dump its load to survive and can't continue the mission.

    Also unaware targets are vulnerable too.


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    George1

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  George1 on Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:54 pm

    Interview with General Director of the "Tactical Missiles Corporation"

    I present one interesting point regarding satellite guidance of Russian air-to-surface missiles:

    Still it remains unclear with equipment controlled by the Russian Air Force weapons class "air-surface" with satellite guidance systems. In the West, more than a decade had such munitions have become a major air attack? We have the same superficially not yet noticeable flow of such weapons to the troops.

    In fact, many of our products have satellite navigation system. On the development of "Rainbow" on the X-35U worth of GPS / GLONASS. There are satellite navigation systems in the KAB caliber 1500, 500 kg. Now we end state tests of X-38MTE. Where is appropriate, we set a satellite navigation system.. But it is impossible to consider satellite navigation as a some kind of panacea. It should always be duplicated by other means of navigation.


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    nastle77

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    MiG-23/ R-60 tactics

    Post  nastle77 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:20 pm

    I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
    But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
    since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
    Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon
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    George1

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:44 pm

    nastle77 wrote:I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
    But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA  and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
    since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
    Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon

    RS-24 in MiG-23 were used from Syrian Air Force against Israel's F-16s during 1982 Lebanon War, but claims on its success varies.
    Many R-23 kills are also reported in the war between Iran and Iraq from Iraqi MiG-23s vs F-14, F-4 and F-5Es


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    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:19 pm

    George1 wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:I have read that the main Mig-23 tactics against other fighters was mainly "hit and run" and to avoid prolonged dogfights
    But then I see the Mig-23P, ML, MLA  and MLD had the R-60 which was a ultraclose range weapon designed to counter maneuverable fighters ,from a practical standpoint when was the Mig-23 expected to use this weapon ? WHat is the benefit of having 4 of these weapons with a very short range ?
    since it was outranged by the sidewinder the Wests most common AAM
    Wouldn't it be better to equip the Mig-23 with 4 x R-24 missiles as they would give them longer spear to deal with the sidewinder armed opponents esp when the IR version of this version was essentially a fire and forget weapon

    RS-24 in MiG-23 were used from Syrian Air Force against Israel's F-16s during 1982 Lebanon War, but claims on its success varies.
    Many R-23 kills are also reported in the war between Iran and Iraq from Iraqi MiG-23s vs F-14, F-4 and F-5Es

    Syria in 1982 had no R-24, only R-23 for their MiG-23MFs. Don't think any R-23 kills in 1982 have been verified. Iraq used both the R-23 and R-24 (and scored kills with both, but mostly with the R-24). Interestingly enough, the first F-14 kill by a MiG-23ML (in 1984) was scored with an R-60.
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    Giulio

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Giulio on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:20 am

    I think the only way to shoot down an F-14 with a Mig-23 is the R-60: to play with a Tomcat on the long range distance it may not be a very good idea ....
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    George1

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:30 am

    Giulio wrote:I think the only way to shoot down an F-14 with a Mig-23 is the R-60: to play with a Tomcat on the long range distance it may not be a very good idea ....

    F-14 had more powerful radar, i think MiG-23 would have been shot down before it could be in firing range for its R-60


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    Giulio

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    Re: Soviet Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Giulio on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:35 am

    Exactly.
    But if you can get close to, the powerful radar is useless.

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