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    Soviet Anti-ship missiles

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    nastle77

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:59 pm

    Can the AS-4 kitchen Kh-22 , AS-5 Kelt antiship missiles can be used against all kinds of ships ? Like destroyers and frigates too ?
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:26 am

    nastle77 wrote:Can the AS-4 kitchen Kh-22 , AS-5 Kelt antiship missiles can be used against all kinds of ships ? Like destroyers and frigates too ?

    Technically, yes.

    Realistically, Kh-22 seeker didn't have enough resolution to "grab" small targets. It needed a very strong radiating/large sized source to target its beam at.

    However, given that aircraft carriers and destroyers were the main target of this missile, this was not considered major issue compared to other problems (e.g. ECM protection)

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:00 am

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:Can the AS-4 kitchen Kh-22 , AS-5 Kelt antiship missiles can be used against all kinds of ships ? Like destroyers and frigates too ?

    Technically, yes.

    Realistically, Kh-22 seeker didn't have enough resolution to "grab" small targets. It needed a very strong radiating/large sized source to target its beam at.

    However, given that aircraft carriers and destroyers were the main target of this missile, this was not considered major issue compared to other problems (e.g. ECM protection)

    so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:28 am

    nastle77 wrote:so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?

    It is impossible to say with that kind of precision.

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:45 am

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?

    It is impossible to say with that kind of precision.

    I understand, were the Kh-22 in the anti-ship role also equipped with nuke warheads ? if nothing else they can obliterate a couple of small ships even if they are inaccurate
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:50 am

    nastle77 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?

    It is impossible to say with that kind of precision.

    I understand, were the Kh-22 in the anti-ship role also equipped with nuke warheads ? if nothing else they can obliterate a couple of small ships even if they are inaccurate

    Yes. But the carrier was the main target.

    The common tactic was to detonate one nuclear Kh-22 over the general area of the SAG to kill off the ECM, then pick off individual surviving targets with HE-armed missiles.


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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:04 am

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?

    It is impossible to say with that kind of precision.

    I understand, were the Kh-22 in the anti-ship role also equipped with nuke warheads ? if nothing else they can obliterate a couple of small ships even if they are inaccurate

    Yes. But the carrier was the main target.

    The common tactic was to detonate one nuclear Kh-22 over the general area of the SAG to kill off the ECM, then pick off individual surviving targets with HE-armed missiles.

    I see that's clever , but for non-USN SAG e.g a JSDF or RN SAG which is primarily cruisers/destroyers/frigates will the Kh-22 armed planes still use the same tactics ?
    I'm assuming things will be a lot easier for AV-MF bombers ( even though their targets are smaller and harder to get a lockon ) as even if the JSDF/RN SAG is covered by land based interceptors they are only equipped with SARH AIM-7 sparrow missiles and the bombers don't have to deal with the AIM-54/F-14 combination ?
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:12 am

    nastle77 wrote:I see that's clever , but for non-USN SAG e.g a JSDF or RN SAG which is primarily cruisers/destroyers/frigates will the Kh-22 armed planes still use the same tactics ?
    I'm assuming things will be a lot easier for AV-MF bombers ( even though their targets are smaller and harder to get a lockon ) as even if the JSDF/RN SAG is covered by land based interceptors they are only equipped with SARH AIM-7 sparrow missiles and the bombers don't have to deal with the AIM-54/F-14 combination ?

    There was another class of lighter missiles for frigate/destroyer/cruiser type targets that were not operating as part of the CVBG.

    That was the Termit, Malakhit, Moskit, Oniks succession of missiles.

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:22 am

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:I see that's clever , but for non-USN SAG e.g a JSDF or RN SAG which is primarily cruisers/destroyers/frigates will the Kh-22 armed planes still use the same tactics ?
    I'm assuming things will be a lot easier for AV-MF bombers ( even though their targets are smaller and harder to get a lockon ) as even if the JSDF/RN SAG is covered by land based interceptors they are only equipped with SARH AIM-7 sparrow missiles and the bombers don't have to deal with the AIM-54/F-14 combination ?

    There was another class of lighter missiles for frigate/destroyer/cruiser type targets that were not operating as part of the CVBG.

    That was the Termit, Malakhit, Moskit, Oniks succession of missiles.
    Ofcourse but what I'm trying to ask is that incase a regiment of AV-MF bombers equipped with Kh-22 do encounter enemy frigate/destroyer/cruiser type targets they could still try to take them out ? without calling for backup from other termit malakhit equipped ships etc

    Sorry if I wasn't clear , appreciate your responses Smile
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:36 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Ofcourse but what I'm trying to ask is that incase a regiment of AV-MF bombers equipped with Kh-22 do encounter enemy frigate/destroyer/cruiser type targets they could still try to take them out ? without calling for backup from other termit malakhit equipped ships etc

    Sorry if I wasn't clear , appreciate your responses Smile

    I am having trouble answering your question because I think the likelihood of such a situation occurring was fairly slim.

    During general war, most DA and AVMF units would have been thrown against pre-planned strategic targets, CVBGs and strategic infrastructure in Western Europe. Given the probable attrition rate in the raids against CVBGs, there would have simply been no other Tu-22M3 regiment available for your scenario.

    I guess, if it was a state of general war and a bomber regiment had no other tasks, and it came upon an enemy destroyer SAG, it would try to take it out (with varying degree of success, I already mentioned the missile's poor resolution against small targets). However, like I said, I do not foresee such a scenario "just coincidentally happening".

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:10 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:Ofcourse but what I'm trying to ask is that incase a regiment of AV-MF bombers equipped with Kh-22 do encounter enemy frigate/destroyer/cruiser type targets they could still try to take them out ? without calling for backup from other termit malakhit equipped ships etc

    Sorry if I wasn't clear , appreciate your responses Smile

    I am having trouble answering your question because I think the likelihood of such a situation occurring was fairly slim.

    During general war, most DA and AVMF units would have been thrown against pre-planned strategic targets, CVBGs and strategic infrastructure in Western Europe. Given the probable attrition rate in the raids against CVBGs, there would have simply been no other Tu-22M3 regiment available for your scenario.

    I guess, if it was a state of general war and a bomber regiment had no other tasks, and it came upon an enemy destroyer SAG, it would try to take it out (with varying degree of success, I already mentioned the missile's poor resolution against small targets). However, like I said, I do not foresee such a scenario "just coincidentally happening".
    True if the primary enemy is CVBG of USN ,however if USSR is at war with another nation and not USA then a destroyer based SAG might be the target. I guess the only solution for that poor resolution problem would be a massed strike e.g 8 or 10 kh-22 missiles launched against a single destroyer sized target hoping atleast one would find home.
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:29 pm

    nastle77 wrote:True if the primary enemy is CVBG of USN ,however if USSR is at war with another nation and not USA then a destroyer based SAG might be the target. I guess the only solution for that poor resolution problem would be a massed strike e.g 8 or 10 kh-22 missiles launched against a single destroyer sized target hoping atleast one would find home.

    You answered your own question, then.

    But so far this hypothetical war is somewhat of a "spherical horse in vacuum". Much would depend on who is the enemy, where the action is being fought, what is the correlation of forces in the AOR, how serious is the escalation of violence, what is the end-goal of the confrontation.

    I don't really know why only Tu-22M3/Kh-22 is considered and the Navy is left alone. The submarine force would certainly play a decisive role in such a limited conflict, in my opinion.
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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:32 pm

    Russian navy has always been a sea denial power . So even if it's US , they can't get past through .

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:56 pm

    Artjomh,
    forgive me for being so vague, consider the foe JSDF.They have harpoon equipped ships and heavy ASW capability, therefore soviet subs face a real threat plus in the 80's the harpoon considerably out ranges the Styx and Starbrights.There are only a few sunburns in service back then
    .
    Therefore the Soviet navy surface ships and subs are at a distinct disadvantage fighting with such well equipped jSdf ships even though they are not AEGIS equipped
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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:28 pm

    nastle77 wrote:Artjomh,
    forgive me for being so vague, consider the foe JSDF.They have harpoon equipped ships and heavy ASW capability, therefore soviet subs face a real threat plus in the 80's the harpoon considerably out ranges the Styx and Starbrights.There are only a few sunburns in service back then
    .
    Therefore the Soviet navy surface ships and subs are at a distinct disadvantage fighting with such well equipped jSdf ships even though they are not AEGIS equipped

    Strabright? That's P-70, right? That was a submarine-only missile, though.

    I am thinking more in terms of P-35, P-500 or P-120. First two hugely outrange RGM-84A and the second one is in Harpoon's ballpark.

    In the end, it would certainly be a combined arms confrontation. And I wouldn't discount the Pacific Fleet submarines. The sheer number of them (especially the converted Echo-II which carried P-500) would certainly overwhelm Japanese ASW defenses.

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:21 pm

    ^No doubt the Pacific sleep is a formidable opponent but Japanese navy also has approximately 34 harpoon armed ships by 80s deep freeze of the Cold War...
    neutralizing these ships would be a task divided between the submarines the few anti-surface warfare cruisers and the bombers of the Naval Aviation, that's why I was wondering how they would Cope with smaller targets , possibly the AS 6 kingfish carried by tu 16 could also be used against the destroyers considering it was a scaled-down version of the AS 4

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:26 pm

    SS19 and SS12 ( sorry again for using the NATO designation I grew up with then lol) you are right even in small numbers must be a huge threat to JDSF destroyers

    E.g a echo II can launch of these well outside the range of Harpoon

    Even the small nanuchka class with its 6 x SS9 sirens is equivalent to a destroyer firepower in ASUW roles ? Isn't the Sirens aND early harpoon roughly equivalent?

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:29 pm

    Although I'm not sure how the Victor class subs primarily designed for ASW will fare against destroyers
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    artjomh

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  artjomh on Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:31 pm

    nastle77 wrote:^No doubt the Pacific sleep is a formidable opponent but Japanese navy also has approximately 34 harpoon armed ships by 80s deep freeze of the Cold War...
    neutralizing these ships would be a task divided between the submarines the few anti-surface warfare cruisers and the bombers of the Naval Aviation, that's why I was wondering how they would Cope with smaller targets , possibly the AS 6 kingfish carried by tu 16  could also be used against the destroyers considering it was a scaled-down version of the AS 4

    nastle, remember, Pacific Fleet doesn't actually need to destroy all those ships. We are not fighting the Battle of Midway here.

    The fleet only needs to decisively destroy a few ships without getting shot back it (and with P-500 range, it's not that hard), then MJSDF will see the error of its ways and turn back.

    What is exactly is the Japanese purpose here? Take back Sakhalin? Then forget the destroyers and sink the landing craft, what are they going to do then?

    jhelb wrote:Artjomh, slightly off topic. What are the challenges designers have to overcome if they have to install a missile/bomb in an aircraft that is from a foreign vendor?

    For example, say Russia exports the Mig 29K or Su 30 to a foreign country and that country chooses to fit the Mig 29K with the Harpoon or the Su 30 with the Brimstone.  How difficult will this task be to integrate the Harpoon or Brimstone on a Mig 29K or  Su 30? Many thanx.

    Here's how: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-1760

    For the physical part, I assume there are adaptors, but I do not know this 100%

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:56 pm



    nastle, remember, Pacific Fleet doesn't actually need to destroy all those ships. We are not fighting the Battle of Midway here.
    True lol but enough to scare them , atleast 1/3 of their frontline ships
    The fleet only needs to decisively destroy a few ships without getting shot back it (and with P-500 range, it's not that hard), then MJSDF will see the error of its ways and turn back.


    hopefully although Japanese do fight to the last man and last round
    What is exactly is the Japanese purpose here? Take back Sakhalin? Then forget the destroyers and sink the landing craft, what are they going to do then?

    Probably to take advantage of a collapsing USSR to grab sakhalins and Kurils
    The landing craft can be hit by SU-17/mig-27 planes quite effectively don't need long range ASM IMHO

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:03 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:so a destroyer sized target/large frigates ( approx. 250 feet long 2000 tonnes or more ) can be targeted but smaller ones like smaller frigates /FPB etc were too small to get a lock on ?

    It is impossible to say with that kind of precision.

    I understand, were the Kh-22 in the anti-ship role also equipped with nuke warheads ? if nothing else they can obliterate a couple of small ships even if they are inaccurate

    Yes. But the carrier was the main target.

    The common tactic was to detonate one nuclear Kh-22 over the general area of the SAG to kill off the ECM, then pick off individual surviving targets with HE-armed missiles.

    Hi
    Can you please tell me where are these tactics mentioned ? also is there any details on the trials live-fire ones preferably that were done on the Kh-22 ? and what kind of targets was it tested against ?

    Do you think saturation attacks by kh-22 i.e 10 or so missiles against a destroyer sized target increases the odds significantly of a hit ? I mean it will likely take only 1 hit by a Kh-22 to sink a destroyer

    Thanks for your help Very Happy

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:06 am

    artjomh wrote:
    nastle77 wrote:Artjomh,
    forgive me for being so vague, consider the foe JSDF.They have harpoon equipped ships and heavy ASW capability, therefore soviet subs face a real threat plus in the 80's the harpoon considerably out ranges the Styx and Starbrights.There are only a few sunburns in service back then
    .
    Therefore the Soviet navy surface ships and subs are at a distinct disadvantage fighting with such well equipped jSdf ships even though they are not AEGIS equipped

    Strabright? That's P-70, right? That was a submarine-only missile, though.

    I am thinking more in terms of P-35, P-500 or P-120. First two hugely outrange RGM-84A and the second one is in Harpoon's ballpark.

    In the end, it would certainly be a combined arms confrontation. And I wouldn't discount the Pacific Fleet submarines. The sheer number of them (especially the converted Echo-II which carried P-500) would certainly overwhelm Japanese ASW defenses.

    By P-35 you mean the SSN-3A/B shaddock ? can that be used against destroyer sized targets ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:26 pm

    By P-35 you mean the SSN-3A/B shaddock ? can that be used against destroyer sized targets ?

    Why not?

    It was faster than Exocet, though it was much bigger... I would expect its warheads would explode properly and sink ships more effectively than exocet did.


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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    By P-35 you mean the SSN-3A/B shaddock ? can that be used against destroyer sized targets ?

    Why not?

    It was faster than Exocet, though it was much bigger... I would expect its warheads would explode properly and sink ships more effectively than exocet did.

    Ok thanks I wasn't sure if it could pick targets smaller than 10,000 tonnes

    I read that the AS-4 Kitchen was designed to target only large ships as mentioned earlier in this thread too
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    Re: Soviet Anti-ship missiles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:38 am

    Ok thanks I wasn't sure if it could pick targets smaller than 10,000 tonnes

    I read that the AS-4 Kitchen was designed to target only large ships as mentioned earlier in this thread too

    Keep in mind that technology improves over time and I would suggest all modern Russian anti ship missiles would be able to target surf boards by now... the AS-4 likely would not have been wasted on a corvette in the 1980s, but these days even corvettes are potent vessels that can't be ignored.

    Besides once the fighting starts most ships will scan for threats making them vulnerable to anti radiation models of AShMs too.


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