The obvious solution would be to combine the Krisantema system with the Shilka perhaps and locate both systems a distance from the targets they are protecting perhaps?
Reducing the IR signature of the AD system is a solution too. Also training the crew to hide and move quickly. If they are connected to the IADS they will know from where the target comes, then they move behind a big obstacke or two houses and get out quickly to fire when it's in range.
That would deny the advantage of missile ranges.
I also thought about a missile optically guided... drones being slow your missile wouldn't need to fly at mach 3 but some 600km/h. Then it's easy to guide it and the guy controling it can switch btw TV or thermal view. Camera being in the missile of couse. The hit would be easy with laser fuzes.
I don't think Libya has an IADS, but it always makes any system more effective and valuable.
The Krisantema and Pine/SOSNA-R and Kornet are laser beam riding missiles which removes the wire link allowing high speed and long range as options.
The sophisticated fire control system in the Pine and Kornet and Krisantema allow targets to be engaged out to about 10km with relatively cheap and simple missiles.
The Pine is the fastest at mach 3, while the Kornet is the slowest at mach 1, the Krisantema moves at about 450m/s which is in between.
The krisantema and kornet missiles are designed to penetrate heavy armour, while the Pine is a dedicated air defence missile, so the former would be fully dual purpose, with the Pine being less so.
The Bulet seems to be a mini Kornet for lighter targets which might be similar ranged to older Kornets but smaller and lighter and cheaper but still big enough to deal with most air targets...
As mentioned I think guns are a cheaper solution too... you don't need expensive radar systems... but accurate electric motor drives for fast precise traverse and elevation and even a couple of ZU-23 cannon, perhaps paired with 14.5mm or 12.7mm guns would be useful against both air and ground targets... put on a vehicle or trailer for mobility
With the laser beam riding missiles the operate just puts the crosshair on the target and gets a lock... the auto target tracking system follows moving targets, so when the missile is launched the missile itself looks back at the launcher to see the laser beam and it determines its position in the beam and manouvers itself into the centre of the beam... if the crosshairs stay on target and the rocket motor of the missile keep propelling it forward towards the target it will hit the target...
Cheap and simple and hard to deal with... DIRCMs wont work...
But you need to spot the target at such great distances. That's why you need good early warning radar to know where to look. An orion or a Anka drone are much harder to spot than a mi28 or an Apache at 10km with optics.
Work alone AD system are too vulnerable. Better spend more money on IADS and less launchers than lot of launchers and no IADS.
Vann7 wrote:there is no chance turkey or US can capture haftar zones completely.. you have the largest army in the middle east egypt ,france and UAE fighting there in haftar side, so this is a war even more harder for turkey ,than the syrian one.. because in syria turkey face an significatly weakned army ,like syria and with a small russia airforce help.. but in lybia.. erdogan face ,the largest army in all middle east. egypt is a country with 100 million citizens and is receiving support from france , UAE and probably saudi arabia too . in terms of weapons and intelligence and supplies.. turkey have no power projection capabilities ,to over run lybia that is huge ,with egypt ,france and uae ,aiding haftar forces..
not even americans helping turkey to take control of lybia can make a major difference and help their muslim brotherhood terrorist to hold control back of lybia.. because they are already over extended in many conflicts. and they know they can't defeat egypt in a ground war with russia and france backing egypt. this smell ,like another vietnam war.. for the nation ,that try to ago against egypt..and haftar.. will find a very powerful force there.. this is not like yemen ,that saudis are alone..
Egypt and syria are at war with the muslim brotherhood ,which is alqaeda front .. and even saudi arabia and uae and bahrain don't like the muslim brotherhood ,and will go against them. Only qatar and turkey and anglo powers support the muslin brotherhood..
Yes .At 2014 ,LNA had nothing under control but now it controls over most of the Libyan areas and oil fields . Egypt did well but not enough comparing to it's power projection capabilities . EAF should go for one week bombing all those Turkish BS .
Turkey is taking money from GNA to protect them . Till now Turkey got about 4 billion $ from the Libyan savings ,just like what they did with terrorists in Syria by taking the oil in low prices . Turkey is acting like a terrorist group who care only about money and control, it must be get beaten in Libya .
The now Turkish owned Pantsir on its way to a new, unknown, home.
Perfect for defending a S-400 Laughing
Why ?
AFAIK the US has purchased S-300 , New York Times said that on 1994 . Did they figured out it's secrets ?
I guess those systems software is secured well against breakthrough .
It will never reach Turkey ... and with no missiles and spare parts they can't use them. It seems also that it was damaged.
The US would support Turkey in Libya up to a point. With Sirte as the dividing line. Turkey cannot cross the Sirte line, confined to western Libya. A more powerful Turkey would cause problem for Russia in the Mediterranean, but they don't want Turkey to get too powerful to threaten EU's interests in the Mediterranean. That's why the US will never allow Turkey to take Sirte. If Turkey does not listen to Uncle Sam then Uncle Sam sanction Turkey far harder than Uncle Sam sanctioned Iran.
But you need to spot the target at such great distances. That's why you need good early warning radar to know where to look. An orion or a Anka drone are much harder to spot than a mi28 or an Apache at 10km with optics.
Or you can send soldiers with a rifle and a flare gun out into the terrain around your anti drone vehicle and if they hear or see a drone flying near them fire some tracer rounds or fire the flare to get your attention...
The optronic sights from Kornet and Pine already are sensitive enough to detect targets out to reasonable distances day or night. Obviously during a sand storm their performance would be reduced, but radars able to detect drones would be expensive and I doubt handing out thermal imagers to the troops in Libya would be much cheaper because they would get sold pretty fast...
Work alone AD system are too vulnerable. Better spend more money on IADS and less launchers than lot of launchers and no IADS.
You'd think so, but most countries just buy a few air defence systems for important stuff and expect the air force to protect them from everything else.
GarryB wrote: You'd think so, but most countries just buy a few air defence systems for important stuff and expect the air force to protect them from everything else.
Dropping like flies. Multiple reports. Oded Berkowitz @Oded121351 · 4h #Libya- #GNA now claims that 4 (!!!) Pantsir systems were destroyed in airstrikes so far today - 3 in #Tarhuna and 1 in al-Washka (near Abugrein-Sirte)
I saw a map today of Libya. If correct, then area under control of GNA, also encapsulates area under control of ISIS. Then I thought, why GNA, if recognised by UN, does not attack this area? This area not very big. Near coast. In west region. Also if GNA, democratic, then why tilt so heavy to Turkey? Who else backs GNA in reality? Any upto date info? Are Muslim brotherhood strong in GNA? Are Muslim brotherhood anti - Russian? If so why ? And I am not talking about the Rats, the Turks transported from Syria recently. Are there elements in GNA, that Russia can approach? To establish relations? Why put all your eggs in one basket?
Same question for Haftir forces. Why they not attack ISIS points? Also Haftir promises elections. Does he represent any elected body? Or just some tribes. Are these tribes traditionally pro - Russian? Have they any reason to be in the future? Were the population in the East, particularly anti - Gaddafi? Was Gaddafi, not an Arab socialist? Like Assad? They started civil war. Wanted the oil. Was not Haftir a CIA man before? Why should he not be turn coat? Will any Russian irregulars, confronting GNA, risk direct confrontation with Turkey? Will loosing the remaining relation with Turkey, be worth gaining the support of Haftir in East? What will it bring Russia? Safe passage through to Med? Huge economic contracts in Libya, already signed..........
nomadski wrote:I saw a map today of Libya. If correct, then area under control of GNA, also encapsulates area under control of ISIS. Then I thought, why GNA, if recognised by UN, does not attack this area? This area not very big. Near coast. In west region. Also if GNA, democratic, then why tilt so heavy to Turkey? Who else backs GNA in reality? Any upto date info? Are Muslim brotherhood strong in GNA? Are Muslim brotherhood anti - Russian? If so why ? And I am not talking about the Rats, the Turks transported from Syria recently. Are there elements in GNA, that Russia can approach? To establish relations? Why put all your eggs in one basket?
Same question for Haftir forces. Why they not attack ISIS points? Also Haftir promises elections. Does he represent any elected body? Or just some tribes. Are these tribes traditionally pro - Russian? Have they any reason to be in the future? Were the population in the East, particularly anti - Gaddafi? Was Gaddafi, not an Arab socialist? Like Assad? They started civil war. Wanted the oil. Was not Haftir a CIA man before? Why should he not be turn coat? Will any Russian irregulars, confronting GNA, risk direct confrontation with Turkey? Will loosing the remaining relation with Turkey, be worth gaining the support of Haftir in East? What will it bring Russia? Safe passage through to Med? Huge economic contracts in Libya, already signed..........
Isn't GNA Muslim Brotherhood? Would make sense they cooperate with ISIS no?
Could be that there are elements, that are anti - Russian. Or there could be some that could be persuaded. I think it is not a black or white case. But different shades of grey. On all sides. I think Russia can simply set aside it's immediate bias. Stop pigeon holing groups. And take it on a case to case basis. Whoever is more constructive and cooperative and agrees to cease fire with other side, gets the cookies.
nomadski wrote:I saw a map today of Libya. If correct, then area under control of GNA, also encapsulates area under control of ISIS. Then I thought, why GNA, if recognised by UN, does not attack this area? This area not very big. Near coast. In west region. Also if GNA, democratic, then why tilt so heavy to Turkey? Who else backs GNA in reality? Any upto date info? Are Muslim brotherhood strong in GNA? Are Muslim brotherhood anti - Russian? If so why ? And I am not talking about the Rats, the Turks transported from Syria recently. Are there elements in GNA, that Russia can approach? To establish relations? Why put all your eggs in one basket?
ISIS not completely occupy areas in Libya like before but some of them could join GNA .
There is no democratic GNA ,it wasn't choiced by the people .It came after SKHIRAT agreement in Morroco in 2015 and has specific missions for specific time (2 years ) ,so in practical this agreement is over . On the other side the Libyan House of Representatives was elected by the Libyans and now is supporting LNA .
Yes Muslim Brotherhood are strong in GNA and that's why Turkey is there .
Yes MB are anti Russia because they consider Russia as a supporter for some regimes who are stopping MB being in power . The MB is banned in Russia as a terrorist organisation .
Till now there is no direct clear support from Russia to any side but i guess Russians prefers LNA to get control over libya . If GNA ruled Libya it means Libya will be a turkish dog ,no one will accept that ,specially Egypt .
Same question for Haftir forces. Why they not attack ISIS points? Also Haftir promises elections. Does he represent any elected body? Or just some tribes. Are these tribes traditionally pro - Russian? Have they any reason to be in the future? Were the population in the East, particularly anti - Gaddafi? Was Gaddafi, not an Arab socialist? Like Assad? They started civil war. Wanted the oil. Was not Haftir a CIA man before? Why should he not be turn coat? Will any Russian irregulars, confronting GNA, risk direct confrontation with Turkey? Will loosing the remaining relation with Turkey, be worth gaining the support of Haftir in East? What will it bring Russia? Safe passage through to Med? Huge economic contracts in Libya, already signed..........
Haftar liberatied many cities from ISIS . Sirte and Derna as example were a base for ISIS and they planned for attacks in egypt from there .I remember one of them his name "Hesham Ashmawy " was an ex Egyptian commando who left the army and joined ISIS and planned some attacks inside Egypt , he was very dangerous as he was already trained in the Egyptian army , then he escaped to Libya but LNA captured him in the eastern city of Derna then he was transferred by the Egyptian Intelligence to Egypt.
Haftar is not a CIA guy .Actually GNA did host a US base in Tripoli but they left after the war has started .
As i said Russia didn't support LNA directly .Other countries are doing that,like Egypt and UAE .
Seems like 3 pantsir were destroyed/captured this week. Putting your eggs on the defence basket isn't working. Those drones can become a real pain in the ass if they don't stop them. What's left of Haftar's air force? What are they waiting to sell some 24 mig-29M to him ?
Btw one pantsir was on a russian kamaz truck so not one of the UAE. They seem to be manned by untrained crews. In the captured pantsir they found a guide for using it translated into arabic.
Isos wrote:Seems like 3 pantsir were destroyed/captured this week. Putting your eggs on the defence basket isn't working. Those drones can become a real pain in the ass if they don't stop them. What's left of Haftar's air force? What are they waiting to sell some 24 mig-29M to him ?
Btw one pantsir was on a russian kamaz truck so not one of the UAE. They seem to be manned by untrained crews. In the captured pantsir they found a guide for using it translated into arabic.
Oded Berkowitz @Oded121351 · 7h #Libya- #GNA announces 5th Pantsir S-1 destroyed so far today, this time in Souq al-Ahad (south of #Tripoli)
Total tally for today (for now): - 3 Tarhuna - 1 al-Washka - 1 Souq al-Ahad
On May 17-18: - 2 destroyed (al-Watiyah & Sirte) (& 1 Krasukha EW system) - 1 captured
SOHR reports Erdogan sent 10,000 Syrian terrorists to fight in Libya. Erdogan's goal of course is to eventually retake Cairo for Turkey. Erdogan was able to secure backing from Putin who stopped SAA from taking M4 highway therefore enabling Erdogan to send all the Syrian terrorists in northern Syria to fight in Libya. Erdogan of course grabs Putin by the balls by not activating S-400 and therefore making Putin do his bidding. Say what you will about Erdogan, but the man is a pure genius, unlike Putin who is a pure idiot.
Which very much puts Syrian performances into perspective...
There is no such thing as a weapon that is perfect and anyone can use against anyone else.
Right now Syrian Pantsirs are operating against Israel, which is probably the best equipped and motivated force there is... probably comparable with trying to deal with HATO...
SOHR reports Erdogan sent 10,000 Syrian terrorists to fight in Libya. Erdogan's goal of course is to eventually retake Cairo for Turkey. Erdogan was able to secure backing from Putin who stopped SAA from taking M4 highway therefore enabling Erdogan to send all the Syrian terrorists in northern Syria to fight in Libya. Erdogan of course grabs Putin by the balls by not activating S-400 and therefore making Putin do his bidding. Say what you will about Erdogan, but the man is a pure genius, unlike Putin who is a pure idiot.
Hang on... Erdogan has sent 10,000 terrorists from Syria so they are no longer Russias problem to Libya, because Erdogan wants to take Cairo for Turkey???
You do know Cairo is in Egypt don't you? How does sending terrorists from Syria to Libya create any problems for Putin or Egypt?
If Putin managed to convince Erdogan to divert 10,000 terrorists from Syria to Libya it is Erdogan that got screwed... those losers are going to get killed in Libya by Egypt and others, which makes the situation in Syria much better with 10,000 less idiots to deal with.
Why do you think removing 10,000 terrorists from Idlib is bad for Putin?
Russia has no bases in Libya, and therefore no important interests either...
GarryB wrote:Which very much puts Syrian performances into perspective...
There is no such thing as a weapon that is perfect and anyone can use against anyone else.
Right now Syrian Pantsirs are operating against Israel, which is probably the best equipped and motivated force there is... probably comparable with trying to deal with HATO...
SOHR reports Erdogan sent 10,000 Syrian terrorists to fight in Libya. Erdogan's goal of course is to eventually retake Cairo for Turkey. Erdogan was able to secure backing from Putin who stopped SAA from taking M4 highway therefore enabling Erdogan to send all the Syrian terrorists in northern Syria to fight in Libya. Erdogan of course grabs Putin by the balls by not activating S-400 and therefore making Putin do his bidding. Say what you will about Erdogan, but the man is a pure genius, unlike Putin who is a pure idiot.
Hang on... Erdogan has sent 10,000 terrorists from Syria so they are no longer Russias problem to Libya, because Erdogan wants to take Cairo for Turkey???
You do know Cairo is in Egypt don't you? How does sending terrorists from Syria to Libya create any problems for Putin or Egypt?
If Putin managed to convince Erdogan to divert 10,000 terrorists from Syria to Libya it is Erdogan that got screwed... those losers are going to get killed in Libya by Egypt and others, which makes the situation in Syria much better with 10,000 less idiots to deal with.
Why do you think removing 10,000 terrorists from Idlib is bad for Putin?
Russia has no bases in Libya, and therefore no important interests either...
Cairo used to be a Turkish city. Erdogan's goal of course is to retake Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad which were at one point Turkish cities.
Cairo used to be a Turkish city. Erdogan's goal of course is to retake Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad which were at one point Turkish cities.
How would he do that ? He will need to go over nuclear armed Israel yet he can't take unarmed kurdish territories.
Egypt needs 1 day of operation and 6 mig-29 or Rafales to wipe out all the turkish systems in Libya includig their stupid drones.
Erdogan would have to secure Putin's backing to do that. Erdogan use S-400 as low hanging fruit. Bought it but won't activate it. Erdogan tells Putin. Help me retake Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Jerusalem and I'll activate S-400 which of course he won't. It's just a ploy to make Putin his personal slave. And Putin of course is the most stupid president on the planet, a fact Erdogan knows and exploits to rebuild Ottoman.
And why would Putin care about the activation of the S-400 ? They paid for it. They used loans from russian banks so the debt exists. The russians don't man it and if Erdogan is stupid enough to threaten them he will end up with a 4 s-400 worth 2 billion that he can't use because lack of spare parts and they probably can deactivate it or erease all the softwares through a backdoor.
The s-400 story is over. Erdogan has all nato against him because of that just like all the arab world because of his "empire". His successes are the use of 20 or so useless drones that can be destroyed by a real army in matter of hours.
Erdogan is playing poker with a 2 and a 3 cards...
Isos wrote:And why would Putin care about the activation of the S-400 ? They paid for it. They used loans from russian banks so the debt exists. The russians don't man it and if Erdogan is stupid enough to threaten them he will end up with a 4 s-400 worth 2 billion that he can't use because lack of spare parts and they probably can deactivate it or erease all the softwares through a backdoor.
The s-400 story is over. Erdogan has all nato against him because of that just like all the arab world because of his "empire". His successes are the use of 20 or so useless drones that can be destroyed by a real army in matter of hours.
Erdogan is playing poker with a 2 and a 3 cards...
It's not operational unless it's activated. It symbolizes the completion of the deal. Erdogan will never activate S-400. It's a low hanging fruit to tempt Putin. It makes Putin work for Erdogan like a slave.
Russia has no bases in Libya, and therefore no important interests either...
I guess Russians do have interests there . After this war Libya will start to rebuild the country and arm it's forces ,so you could expect 100 billion$ of contracts would be available there .Everyone needs a piece of the cake .
Cairo used to be a Turkish city. Erdogan's goal of course is to retake Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad which were at one point Turkish cities.
And British Empire has controlled about 35 million km² in the past , could that be repeated again now ?
You are right that Erdogan want to control over those countries but it's not the traditional control like the past .He needs an economy and political control to sell the Turkish products without any conditions and get more benefits for the Turkish economy.
Last edited by ahmedfire on Thu May 21, 2020 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
It's not operational unless it's activated. It symbolizes the completion of the deal. Erdogan will never activate S-400. It's a low hanging fruit to tempt Putin. It makes Putin work for Erdogan like a slave.
Russians don't care about if it's activated or not. The money was given. End of story for the russians and they achieved their goal. They sold a strategic weapon to an enemy country that they can deactivate any day or just stop supllying spare parts and they poisoned turko-NATO relations and they got 500 million each for a system they pay 200 million for themselves.
Well I said 24 not 6 but . Turkish drones are dead.
Rob Lee @RALee85 · 3h The GNA's security chief Fathi Bashagha said at least six MiG-29s and two Su-24s have flown into eastern Libya from Russia's Khmeimim Airbase in Syria, escorted by two Russian Air Force Su-35 fighters, to bolster the LNA. 69/
Rob Lee @RALee85 · 3h Last week the Записки охотника Telegram Channel said that a Russian Tu-154 aircraft landed in Iran's Hamadan Airbase as a stop over as it flew from Russian to Syria, and it was escorted by 6 MiG-29 fighters. Presumably, these are the same fighters. 70/
ELINT News @ELINTNews · 14h #UPDATE: Bloomberg reports: Haftar’s Forces Announce Air Campaign Against Turkey in Libya
“You are about to see the largest aerial campaign in Libyan history in the coming hours,” Haftar’s air force chief Saqr al-Jaroushi said in a statement
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. Turkish drones are dead.