Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

ALAMO wrote:Azeris are a much more reliable partner for Russkie like always. They just do business, can be persuaded to anything that brings mutual benefits, and don't cry like babies.

This is wrong. Aside from buying some weapons,  Azerbaijan is firmly in Turkish camp and, at best, neutral to Russia. I would say definitely has much worse relation with Russia than Kazakhstan does and those are not exactly blooming. Major difference btw Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan is that latter don't have any Russians living in the country as they were mostly expelled or made to move out at the beginning of '90s, so that is not a point of possible discontent anymore.
As for Russian relationship with Armenia, realtionship didn't begin or end with Pashinyan. There are historic ties and very strong Armenian diaspora in Russia. 
It would be extremely shortsighted to base political decisions on short time events.

Armenian wrote:
I used to be a pro-Russian person my self but seeing such comments here makes me just realize how stupid we all were we just had to behave like Turks as this is how things work apparently.

That would be very foolish of you. Large majority of people here are not Russian, and most only saw Russia in pics or tv. They never visited the country, and for most part, picture of Russia they have is completely skewed and anchored in their own beliefs and not reality.

flamming_python wrote:

Armenian wrote:Armenia is the only remaining country Russia has military base and influance. Only country that sees Russia not as foe but a friend.

This was of course the case until 2020 when entire country realized the fact that Putin sold Armenia to Turks. It was certainly a big shock as Armenians had confidence that Russia would never allow a war in the region. It was of surely stupid to think that as countries have their interests and things never stay the same in the dynamic world.

I remember Putin’s speech when he was saying that it’s not Armenia’s proper that got attacked, if it was Russia will defend Armenia. 2 years later Armsnia got invaded by the same Azerbaijan, Russia didn’t even condemned the attack. CSTO receiving formal request of help, didn’t do a damn thing and just sent some commender for monitoring it was like having fun with Armenians, people that lost 207 of their kids in 2 days against Turkish drones.

Outcome? Russia made their decision to stand with Turkish block and betrayed an entire nation. I would understand it if this was in Russia’s interest but I just have the impression that Turks played Putin, again.

Now US found the chance to take the region from Russia for good. Armenia knowing that Russia is not willing to protect them(even though there is a mutual defence pact) now is forced to side with the US. Recent pools shows that Armenians support to Russia decresed from %80 to %30. So people will be defiantly fine to have security instead of humiliation.

Yes Pashinyan isn’t reliable figure, he is not Pro-American or Pro-NATO, he is just and idiot who Armenians trusted that can deal with corruption. Not liking him doens’t mean that it’s fine to punish an entire country.

Losing the last remaining ally? For what, for two-faced Turks that always backstabbed Russia?

Good job Putin and kudos to everyone who didn’t give the slightest damn to Armenia which stood with Russia even during the Syrian conflict. Russia is great for turning their friends into their enemies. That I can give.

I would agree but Putin has clearly outsourced the protection of Armenia to Iran for the duration of the conflict. That's obvious. And no-one trusts the Turks or Erdogan; just that Russia needs them to keep open airspace and the Bosphorus for the duration of the war in the Ukraine; which they may close if Russia openly moves against Azerbaijan.

I rather suspect it is in fact the Azeris/Turks who orchestrated this turn of events in Armenia in the first place in coalition with NATO, with the provocations on the border trying to embarrass Moscow. It worked, and as presumably agreed, Armenia is trying to switch to Washington now.

So now Armenia may be where the Turks want it to be as well. Broken with its former ally and with Washington now trying to act as its guarantor. Only Washington will dump it as soon as the Turks definitively agree to go ahead with a pan-Turkic agenda against Russia and Iran and China in exchange for that sliver of southern Armenian territory that divides Turkey from mainland Azerbaijan. Which the Turks may decide on given the right incentive or if Moscow starts to show weakness against NATO.

Use your head. Rest of the Armenians too. Emotions and cries of betrayal are for fools in this game. In reality Russia and Armenia are natural allies and that's how it will always be.

As for Pashinyan, he is indeed an agent of American intelligence and has not gone rogue from them. He can be counted on pry Armenia from its alliance with Russia at any available opportunity and that's what he's doing. After the peace agreement was signed between Pashinyan and Aliev, Pashinyan did not ratify the border as agreed upon with Moscow's mediation. It's possible he has been doing something underhanded to precipitate the latest escalation as well, although my impression as mentioned previously - is that it's Baku's/Ankara's scheme.

Pashinyan is here today simply because Armenians are sick and tired of the old Mafia regime that stole their entire recources for 30 years to become multi millioners. Pashinyan is extramly lucky as if the opposition figures were different people there is a %0 chance that he would remained as PM after losing the war. Understand how big hate there is on the previous regime that people found no other way but to vote for Nikol again.

He is in this position temporarily, everybody knows it including himself. Justifiying damaging the relations between two countries because of him is all about having zero vision.

Of course the US doesn't care about Armenians, who said they care? But if you don’t obey the agreements you signed, if you try to become best buddies with Turks with sacrificing Armenia what other alternatives we have? Having another genocide? Do even people understand what it means losing 207 soldiers in 2 days for a country that has 2 million population?

Armenia is the last country remined as an ally for Russia and yes Russia is about losing it to the US because of the reckless mind games.

lancelot wrote:Sounds to me like you ate US propaganda hook line and sinker. That is the typical US line, that selling your country to foreigners is fighting corruption, they did that in Ukraine and the result is the Ukrainians don't even own large swathes of their own farmland anymore. It is now owned by US conglomerates.

The US and their goons start the problems in NK, and then they come up with the "solution", and you just lap it up.

Russia has better things to do than walk into an obvious trap when they have bigger fish to fry.

This is not about Pashinyan being pro West or not. If Armenians make a formal request for Russian help, Russia has to obey. There's no ifs ands or buts. It is clearly spelled out in the CSTO agreement. Nancy Pelosi can be a president of Armenia, and they would be still obliged to do it.

lancelot wrote:Ahah. No.

Ok.

caveat emptor wrote:

lancelot wrote:Sounds to me like you ate US propaganda hook line and sinker. That is the typical US line, that selling your country to foreigners is fighting corruption, they did that in Ukraine and the result is the Ukrainians don't even own large swathes of their own farmland anymore. It is now owned by US conglomerates.

The US and their goons start the problems in NK, and then they come up with the "solution", and you just lap it up.

Russia has better things to do than walk into an obvious trap when they have bigger fish to fry.

This is not about Pashinyan being pro West or not. If Armenians make a formal request for Russian help, Russia has to obey. There's no ifs ands or buts. It is clearly spelled out in the CSTO agreement. Nancy Pelosi can be a president of Armenia, and they would be still obliged to do it.

Russia isn't obliged to start a war with Azerbaijan for the sake of the Armenian sellout PM who refuses to defend Armenia or Nagorno Karabakh. Hell, not even NATO's article 5 stipulates that they have to obey a request to go to war with any country a NATO member is in conflict with.

I used to be a pro-Russian person my self but seeing such comments here makes me just realize how stupid we all were Smile we just had to behave like Turks as this is how things work apparently.

You changing your views based on opinions of people you never met on the internet suggests how deep your loyalty reaches.

I couldn't care what some Russians post on here about getting rid of Putin or other such western based propaganda solutions to their problems that are not problems.

I am an athiest but if your faith is so easily turned then you need to befriend the US... you are just the sort of clay they love to mold into pions and cannon fodder.

As for Russian relationship with Armenia, realtionship didn't begin or end with Pashinyan. There are historic ties and very strong Armenian diaspora in Russia.

But when their elected leader throws NK and Armenia under the bus by being a dick head and dithering and not giving Russia any reason to help, common sense would say he is the problem and should be replaced as soon as possible... but they seem to prefer to blame Putin... like Nalvalny or the western media or politicians would.

Pashinyan is here today simply because Armenians are sick and tired of the old Mafia regime that stole their entire recources for 30 years to become multi millioners. Pashinyan is extramly lucky as if the opposition figures were different people there is a %0 chance that he would remained as PM after losing the war. Understand how big hate there is on the previous regime that people found no other way but to vote for Nikol again.

So you are saying the other alternatives are corrupt.... because obviously the west is not corrupt and hate dealing with corrupt politicians... Navalny became a politician after leading an anti corruption organisation... which led to lots of corruption itself of course... you had to pay his org money if you didn't want your corruption exposed sort of blackmail BS.

Would rather have a corrupt piece of shit in power than Navalny... and this Pashinyan seems to be destroying your relations with Russia and you are showing your enormous depths of loyalty to Russia by blaming Putin for all of this.

He is in this position temporarily, everybody knows it including himself. Justifiying damaging the relations between two countries because of him is all about having zero vision.

He is damaging the relations... when your house is on fire and the head of the household throws petrol on the flames you don't blame the local Fire Chief because of the damage to your house.

But if you don’t obey the agreements you signed, if you try to become best buddies with Turks with sacrificing Armenia what other alternatives we have?

What is Russia obliged to do in this situation... the last time the Azeris attacked the Armenian forces officially did **** all in NK... how can Russia swoop in and rescue a region Armenia does not recognise?

Armenia is the problem here... I am pretty certain Russia would be happy to help but you have to give them a bone...

Armenia is the last country remined as an ally for Russia and yes Russia is about losing it to the US because of the reckless mind games.

The idea of losing Armenia to the US unless Russia ups its game when your leader you voted in and seem to support is ignoring Russia and runs to the west instead... what exactly are you expecting Russia to do?

This is not about Pashinyan being pro West or not. If Armenians make a formal request for Russian help, Russia has to obey. There's no ifs ands or buts. It is clearly spelled out in the CSTO agreement. Nancy Pelosi can be a president of Armenia, and they would be still obliged to do it.

None of the parties involved recognise NK as being NK so what exactly are they expecting Russia to do.

That is like Turkey claiming they are part of HATO so HATO has to invade Syria and exterminate the Kurds on Syrian territory so they don't help the Kurds attacking Turkey in Turkey.

Garry, Let’s forget NKR for a second if you don’t mind.

Azerbaijan attacked Armenia 2 weeks ago, killed 207 soldiers, 3 civillians and advanced 7.5 km deep into Armenia’s soverign terretory.

Now can you please answer this question. Armenia has a defance pact signed with Russia in 1997 according to which Russia should defend Armenia.

Armenia formally requested military help from Russia right after the attack. Forget about help Russia didn’t even condemn the attack.

Now, let be direct. Should Russia help or no? That’s a very simple question that needs a simple answer.

Armenian wrote:Garry, Let’s forget NKR for a second if you don’t mind.

Azerbaijan attacked Armenia 2 weeks ago, killed 207 soldiers, 3 civillians and advanced 7.5 km deep into Armenia’s soverign terretory.

Now can you please answer this question. Armenia has a defance pact signed with Russia in 1997 according to which Russia should defend Armenia.

Armenia formally requested military help from Russia right after the attack. Forget about help Russia didn’t even condemn the attack.

Now, let be direct. Should Russia help or no? That’s a very simple question that needs a simple answer.

You dont seem stupid. You sound like you know your stuff and love your people. But think about it outside of your own patriotism for a second. The west is using Armenia and Azerbaijan to force Russia to pick sides and intervene. The slithery turks are also involved. Poor Armenia as usual is stuck in the middle of this. You want sovereignty and dont want to be a puppet of Russia? Expect Russia not to throw out its geopolitical cards for your sake. If you want fast and fierce Russian support then you need to align more with Russia and stop playing the turk game of playing one superpower off another for your advantage.

1. Armenia is not the only "friendly" country where Russia has a base. Russia has foreign bases in Tajikistan, Kirgistan, Abkhazia, South-Ossetia and Syria. 

2. Azerbaidschan killed armenian soldiers and moved into the country. What did the armenian army do? Before asking Russia to fight, do it yourself.

3. There is a simple solution to all of this. Make a referendum, become part of Russia again and all this shit will stop. There could even be a deal made so that Karabakh could become a russian region with the right for the Azeris that lived there to return under the protection of Russia.

Hole wrote:1. Armenia is not the only "friendly" country where Russia has a base. Russia has foreign bases in Tajikistan, Kirgistan, Abkhazia, South-Ossetia and Syria. 

2. Azerbaidschan killed armenian soldiers and moved into the country. What did the armenian army do? Before asking Russia to fight, do it yourself.

3. There is a simple solution to all of this. Make a referendum, become part of Russia again and all this shit will stop. There could even be a deal made so that Karabakh could become a russian region with the right for the Azeris that lived there to return under the protection of Russia.

1: Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan have almost the same relations with the West as with Russia. Abkhazia and South-Osetia are not internationally recognized countries. I will skip Syria

The fact that you mention these countries that Russia has friends, shows the situation Russia is in.

2: Armenian army fought back with it’s capacity. Azeris have 79 official KIA, altough the figure is most likely higher.

3: Armenia is an independent country and it’s in Russia’s interest to have Armenia as an independent country. It’s unbelievable and also sad still seeing people living with the Soviet Union fantasies. Saying staff like this and then asking why Armenia is trying to have different alliances is a bit ironic.

Azerbaijan again attacked sovereign Armenia. 3 KIA so far.

Garry, Let’s forget NKR for a second if you don’t mind.

Azerbaijan attacked Armenia 2 weeks ago, killed 207 soldiers, 3 civillians and advanced 7.5 km deep into Armenia’s soverign terretory.

Now can you please answer this question. Armenia has a defance pact signed with Russia in 1997 according to which Russia should defend Armenia.

Armenia formally requested military help from Russia right after the attack. Forget about help Russia didn’t even condemn the attack.

Now, let be direct. Should Russia help or no? That’s a very simple question that needs a simple answer.

From the information provided and ignoring NKR, yes you are right, Russia should have at the very least condemned the attack and promised help... but what information is not being provided?

You admit your leader is only in power because the alternatives, while more pro Russia, are in your words corrupt... do you trust the information coming from your government?

I mean the fact that they received Nancy Pelosi... a venomous anti Russian psycho bitch... and smiled and got photos with her... suggests Armenia is on the turn.

Is your loyalty fully based on what Russia can do for you now and if you get a better offer then that loyalty is thrown in their faces?

I suspect rather than just being leader, that there are CIA minions working feverishly for him making him and the US look good and Russia and everyone else to look bad... if you ignore that well of course you will end up like the Ukraine... everything is Russias fault... why didn't they save us when we needed our white knight.

I come from a tiny country too and I understand that fear of not being defended by a big power... near where I live money was spent two centuries ago to build a coastal artillery emplacement because we were not given assurances from the British that the royal navy would always be here to defend us, and our tiny population at the time could not support a navy that could do any better... so we build guns in harbours... to defend us from the Russians.

When they did finally come they wanted to trade and were less trouble than the Americans were.

If you want fast and fierce Russian support then you need to align more with Russia and stop playing the turk game of playing one superpower off another for your advantage.

If Armenia wants Russian support they need to clarify their position on a few things and NK is the main one as that seems to be a large part of the issue between Azeri and Armenia.

It is like the Minsk agreements... never anything other than a temporary mechanism for the aggressor to build up forces to escalate later on when they are better prepared.

In the Ukraine however the difference was that in 2014 these republics didn't see themselves as Russian, they saw themselves as Ukrainians who just spoke Russian and didn't want to change to Ukrainian. After being shelled by their fellow Ukrainians for the last 8 years however their loyalties and view of the world at large has shifted... it is not just getting shelled by your own country... but having the entire west not just turn a blind eye but to actually blame you for it all and encourage Kiev to shell you to get rid of so called Russian invaders... well a referendum just makes sense now.

What I don't understand is why a referendum in NK has not already been set up years ago... you should have done it in 2008 when Kosovo declared independence to minimise the BS from the west.

3: Armenia is an independent country and it’s in Russia’s interest to have Armenia as an independent country. It’s unbelievable and also sad still seeing people living with the Soviet Union fantasies. Saying staff like this and then asking why Armenia is trying to have different alliances is a bit ironic.

Russia is a federation... Armenia could retain its languages and customs and culture while being part of the Russian Federation... it is the only iron clad defence from western interference as it brings nuclear weapons in to the mix.

You could even do a Cuba and say that the US has nuclear weapons in Turkey so Armenia should have some nukes stored there until they are withdrawn...

Azerbaijan again attacked sovereign Armenia. 3 KIA so far.

To be clear I liked this post because you are sharing information with the forum.

Obviously I do not like that there is fighting between your two countries... maybe Russia should deliver some Russian made Iranian drones to Armenia...

Armenian wrote:Garry, Let’s forget NKR for a second if you don’t mind.

Azerbaijan attacked Armenia 2 weeks ago, killed 207 soldiers, 3 civillians and advanced 7.5 km deep into Armenia’s soverign terretory.

Now can you please answer this question. Armenia has a defance pact signed with Russia in 1997 according to which Russia should defend Armenia.

Armenia formally requested military help from Russia right after the attack. Forget about help Russia didn’t even condemn the attack.

Now, let be direct. Should Russia help or no? That’s a very simple question that needs a simple answer.

Ukraine has done 7 mobilizations so far.
Russia is mobilizing 300,000

Azerbaijan attacks Nagorno-Karabagh in 2020 ---- Pashinyan does not order a general mobilization
Azerbaijan attacks Armenia in 2022 -----Pashinyan does not order a general mobilization
.
.
.
Instead, he wants Russia/CSTO to fight for Armenia.
He wants young Russian soldiers to spill their blood while Armenian young men watch the conflict on YouTube in Yerevan cafes and restaurants.

The Armenians of 1990-1994 were much better than the Armenians of 2020-2022.
They endured: the cold, the lack of electricity, fuel, jobs. The fought against all odds and won.

Pashinyan should order a general mobilization, fight back with al means and then ask for outside help.
All he does is play politics, play one side against the other and blame all his mistakes on others.

Pashinyan, his entourage and supporters are demolishing your country piece by piece.

Armenians should help themselves first. Here is what they should do:
- Put Pashinyan in jail for treason
- Stop playing East vs West
- Mobilize the population (and the large Armenian diaspora)
- Fight back the Azeris with all means (including airforce, Iskanders etc)

Help will be on the way if the above is done.

caveat emptor wrote:

ALAMO wrote:Azeris are a much more reliable partner for Russkie like always. They just do business, can be persuaded to anything that brings mutual benefits, and don't cry like babies.

This is wrong. Aside from buying some weapons,  Azerbaijan is firmly in Turkish camp and, at best, neutral to Russia. I would say definitely has much worse relation with Russia than Kazakhstan does and those are not exactly blooming. Major difference btw Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan is that latter don't have any Russians living in the country as they were mostly expelled or made to move out at the beginning of '90s, so that is not a point of possible discontent anymore.
As for Russian relationship with Armenia, realtionship didn't begin or end with Pashinyan. There are historic ties and very strong Armenian diaspora in Russia. 
It would be extremely shortsighted to base political decisions on short time events.

Agree with everything except that there are Russians living in Baku. There was anti-Russian nationalism in the 90s but milder compared to most of the Caucasus. Mostly it was Armenians that were targetted.

As for Azerbaijan yes. Its a good business partner and both Russia and Azerbaijan do not want their relations to be held hostage over Karabakh. But they are not a Russian ally or friendly country; at best they are neutral.
They have never been part of the CSTO or the Eurasian Economic Union. They have been part of that anti-Russian grouping along with Ukraine and Georgia that the EU sponsored, related as well to the now defunct Nabucco pipeline project.
The pipeline now built to Georgia has been a major point of contention, and one way Armenia/Russia were able to pressure Aliyev and the Turks was by targeting the pipeline from Karabakh.
It was in fact the Russian division in Armenia that helped break Azeri defences in the early 90s in the Lachin corridor, enabling the Armenians to reinforce the insurgents in Karabakh and ultimately kick the Azeris out in the first place.
This was after the ultra-nationalist coup in Baku that brought to power a pro-NATO pan-Turkist that hated Russia so much that he refused to speak the language in his conversation with Russian diplomats, and that openly hinted at supporting separatism in Russia. Granted that guy didn't last long, and the Aliyevs were/are a lot smarter, but it does go to show what side Azerbaijan was on.

Now the EU has come running to Azerbaijan again and the later have agreed to increase oil supplies. If Kazakhstan or Turkmenistan manage to lay a pipeline under the Caspian then Azerbaijan can supply that to Europe too. Even if not, they can achieve the same thing through LNG terminals on the Caspian.
Which is reasonable enough, that's just Azerbaijan following its own interests.
But with Armenia Russia has mutual interests. With Azerbaijan - not so much.

India to send missiles, rockets, ammunition worth US$250 million to Armenia

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/arming-armenia-india-to-export-missiles-rockets-and-ammunition/articleshow/94518414.cms?from=mdr

Graphic TG video guys. Azerbaijani rats executing Armenian POWs point blank.

The hatred that I feel for these cockroaches is unrivalled.

https://t.me/TG301AD/4916

Nikol Pashinyan a day or two ago:

"We have a plan to withdraw from the CSTO by the end of February 2023 if Russia and other members of the organization fail to fulfill their allied obligations by then."

Nikol Pashinyan

But with Armenia Russia has mutual interests. With Azerbaijan - not so much.

Russia is not fighting the cold war any more and needs to get these two countries talking rather than fighting... but it sounds like Pashinyan wants to exit the CSTO agreement which will mean it is not Russias problem any more.

Armenia will have to find its own solutions to its own problems... I wonder what promises Pelosi whispered to them... the fact that the democrats might lose a lot of power in the upcoming elections in the US she can promise the world because Biden wont get reelected... ask the Afghans about how the Americans are with their allies.

India to send missiles, rockets, ammunition worth US$250 million to Armenia

Wonder if that means they want to fight or are they just going to pass that equipment on to Ukraine as per some agreement with Pelosi for which Pashy makes a nice tidy nest egg in the foreign bank of his choice.

Armenian wrote:Azerbaijan again attacked sovereign Armenia. 3 KIA so far.

Bro, you'll have to ride this one by yourself. Russia is stuck in Ukraine and needs to clean up its own house, as well

GarryB wrote:Wonder if that means they want to fight or are they just going to pass that equipment on to Ukraine as per some agreement with Pelosi for which Pashy makes a nice tidy nest egg in the foreign bank of his choice.

Why does India need to sell MBRL to Ukraine when they already have access to an unlimited supply of HIMARS and ATACMS missile.

@Spriter99880
Baku is accumulating heavy military equipment near the Lachin corridor.(between Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh)