Body Armour and Protection systems

The main feature of the VKS is the fact that it has an enormous suppressor and fires subsonic ammo.

The effective range of an SVD with subsonic ammo is actually quite short because of the steep trajectory of subsonic ammo and there is no subsonic ammo for the SVD in the 700 grain bullet weight range, so really you can't compare.

A better comparison would be a 9 x 39mm calibre weapon like the various 9 x 39mm suppressed weapons like the VSS and even SR-3.

Even they can't compete with the VKS and they are not supposed to.

The VSK is a long range suppressed weapon for use against targets wearing body armour.

Obviously some types of body armour will stop its round, but even someone rugged up for close combat will have exposed bits... a 50 cal solid bronze slug through the pelvis will slow anyone down if you know what I mean.

Either way I am happy to drop this... it was only an off the cuff comment... but to answer your question directly... this weapon is specifically designed with a custom designed round for the job.

It makes sense that if you are issued this weapon your job is to kill at a distance, quietly, and most likely either through a structure like a wall or through personal body armour.

Ammunition should not be a problem because there is only sniper ammo for this weapon because it is unique. There are no standard assault rifle rounds or machine gun rounds because the only weapon in this calibre is a sniper round so the only round available are sniper rounds.

The example you gave showed a general shortage of specialist sniper rounds in a calibre very widely used in the conflict by machine guns. One suspects that sniper ammo was sent everywhere machine gun ammo was sent and in some places where snipers were not widely used there were probably great stacks of boxes of the stuff just sitting there with no one asking for it. Sort thing any bureaucracy can do and will do.

Good, that was a really unnecessary discussion IMO >.>

In any case, my first question (at least before said discussion) still stands, does Russia has any plans for a farther off Soldier system like those 2 pictures I posted?

The best information on that subject I have seen was in Austins post number 6 on this thread.

It is normal practise to plan several generations ahead, with plans for 2020 and beyond a little sketchy but at least with some basic expectations to guide current and next gen development.

but the video is aobut french army!!
will russia build it or buy it??

ahmedfire wrote:
but the video is aobut french army!!
will russia build it or buy it??

Russia has bought sample systems in testing. We will either license produce it or many of its subsystems. The scopes can be adapted to any rifle.

Vladimir79 wrote:

ahmedfire wrote:
but the video is aobut french army!!
will russia build it or buy it??

Russia has bought sample systems in testing. We will either license produce it or many of its subsystems. The scopes can be adapted to any rifle.

can you give me alink that russia get some of them??
because i'll make athread about that in my forum.(arabian forum)

ahmedfire wrote:
can you give me alink that russia get some of them??
because i'll make athread about that in my forum.(arabian forum)

http://www.vedomosti.ru/tech/news/2009/08/26/826322

The electronics like communications stuff is probably of most interest and they might be interested in how the whole thing is integrated together.

Optics with built in electronics might be of interest too and perhaps the way the electrical power is managed might also be of interest too.

I should note that there is a science journal about Russia using mini-Nakidkas for their troops, which would kill one's thermal signature, making them invisible to say, the FLIR of an Apache helicopter.

www.moratex.eu/pliki/tww/2009_23/TWW_2009_23_04-ImprovementOfSoldierSurvivability.pdf+Improvement+of+soldier+survivability&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiMzy1rH8A8AOsFxrYM3Fj2DE2XY9Jt3VHzkP3st1yGOcb6lFOeQT2vnbAmPbQVJGZDKtqNxp5GXzm2E2dF9b_VF2Ki1eWjvYEpa6484U_WpK0gT8mXvAOWKx45Fk8rEtif0Yjh&sig=AHIEtbR4aR5GDwuggmTKUtkMwnguZmr59w"

I would expect that instead of making capes that this material will be used in the outer shell of the camo kits they are working on.

To be fully effective they will need to apply the material to the boots and weapons and equipment too.

Here is a link to a translation of a page about Barmitsa:

http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.tsniitochmash.ru%2fequipment.html

The amount of gear one needs to meet all the requirements of a future soldier is getting silly. For example, that bulky thermal cape. Technology is having a very difficult time reducing weight and size to meet it. US Army FCS is pretty much canceled all items except their network. France is the only nation to really push forward full steam with the concept and even they had to make compromises.

The idea is pretty sound though... I mean one person needs to carry the gear so it makes sense to design it as a set rather than as individual items and then dealing with compatibility later.

It is anticipated that as the technology improves and the integration improves some items can be merged to reduce total equipment carried.

In this case I think the material the cape is made of will be used to make the outer shell of whatever the soldier wears so that the cape is no longer necessary.

This I believe was an original goal of the first systems where every item contributes to certain features.

Ie instead of a single heavy outer ballistic material that all layers including undergarments are made "ballistic" to add protection so that the outer ballistic material can be made lighter.

Certainly with electronics they are getting smaller, lighter, and multifunction. Right now you might need a radio and a sat nav receiver, but the next gen might combine these with a few other useful functions... not only reducing physical size but also reducing power requirements.

It would certainly be easier to reduce the number of items needing to be carried when you treat it as a system or set.


Edit: The thing I think will be the biggest problem is the fact that previously Russian Army personnel were fairly lightly equipped... when you give them a full sized pack and full belt order equipment I think there will be problems getting all their gear into the existing vehicles. New larger vehicle designs will be needed just to accommodate the extra gear.
Perhaps the first robot the Russian Army introduces will be a mule that carts around everyones day pack so they can operate with belt order on foot patrols.

GarryB wrote:

Edit: The thing I think will be the biggest problem is the fact that previously Russian Army personnel were fairly lightly equipped... when you give them a full sized pack and full belt order equipment I think there will be problems getting all their gear into the existing vehicles. New larger vehicle designs will be needed just to accommodate the extra gear.
Perhaps the first robot the Russian Army introduces will be a mule that carts around everyones day pack so they can operate with belt order on foot patrols.

What planet did you get that info? Russian soldiers haul 36kg on average, some over 40. Far more than any I know of. French haul 26kg. The big problem is carrying power packs to keep all those electronics running.

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

Obviously in war you need to carry a lot more kit, but during exercises Soviet units always seem to operate with belt gear alone with no large backpacks.

Often they didn't even carry chest webbing which only seem to become common after a while in Afghanistan.

What I meant was that soldiers on manoeuvres seemed very lightly equipped, whereas in conflict zones like in Afghanistan or Chechnia they seem to have addition stuff stacked on top of their vehicles.

Obviously I may be wrong but it gave the impression that during exercises the bare essentials needed for the exercise were carried whereas during a real conflict everything was carried but that exceeded the internal capacity of the existing vehicles so stuff needed to be carried externally.

My suggestion is that if the new Russian soldier is going to be fully equipped with all the stuff he needs for war that larger vehicles with more internal storage space for kit will need to be provided for.

As technology improves the power supply issue can be dealt with.

By working on the issue as part of a soldier combat system you can design a layer of clothing that is not too far from the skin to keep it warm in very cold conditions that are normally bad for batteries. A vest like battery pack that could be liquid or gel based could serve as trauma protection behind a bullet proof vest to reduce bruising from impacts could be the main power supply for the soldier with all his electronic kit connected to it. When operating from vehicles he could plug in and charge the system up... with a high voltage system it could take just minutes for a recharge time.

I would guess that 15kg armour was for entry teams for the first guy through the door that always gets shot.

As it is highest level protection it is probably also worn by bomb disposal guys as well.

I doubt they would issue it to anyone who has to run or climb or jump.

Having said that I just finished reading about Soviet soldiers fighting near Murmansk in 1944 and the forces operating behind enemy lines had equipment loads of 40kgs or more as they had to carry absolutely everything with them and operate about 200km north of the Arctic circle.

Was browsing a site and found that the 15kg body armour they are talking about is designed to stop 338 Laupa Magnum armour piercing bullets from 300m so it is not likely designed for paratrooper use or even standard soldier use.

It is most likely for that first guy in an entry team that is most likely to get shot as they enter. The combination of this vest and a hand held shield there is probably not much short of an RPG that will reliably stop them.

Is Body Armor obsolete?

The US sold the LRAD sound weapons to China. Couldn't that or a beefed up version just be used on someone with body armor?

I noticed the Chinese military released a photo of their military wearing some kind of EMF gear to protect them from energy. What is that all about? I have never seen any photo's of Russian or American troops wearing gear to protect them from energy.

I think the next battlefield will have some very powerful sound weapons, which body army won't help you in.

The combination of ear plugs and the 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher would be the best defence against such a system.

That sound weapon system is not meant to injure or incapacitate and it is certainly not intended to be used against armed attackers.

It is a water cannon to break up demonstrators... something you can use when you find members in the crowd with helmets and gas masks and batons stirring up trouble... not something you point at ma and pa at a rally.

Most people think body armour is to save soldiers from bullets but the majority of instances it is to protect the soldier from fragments... that is why it is called a Flak jacket... flak being a term for shrapnel or shell fragments, though often associated with anti aircraft guns because they tend to fire HE shells that detonate a the height the enemy bomber stream is operating at. In the planes the threat is shell fragments from shells exploding all around them.

They are heavy and uncomfortable... but when they do their job they are your best friend...

""It is a water cannon to break up demonstrators... something you can use when you find members in the crowd with helmets and gas masks and batons stirring up trouble... not something you point at ma and pa at a rally."""

I was talking about the sound weapon. Apparently it was ruled not a weapon...to get around US export laws and sell to China. It is something you point at ma an pa. They have smaller versions the Secret Service uses to deny area access to people.....when they need to.

...And those are the "police" versions. I'd imagine they have more powerful types. Russia spent time developing and working on their own equivalents.....as I said...Directed Energy thwarts Body Armor.

I was talking about the sound weapon. Apparently it was ruled not a weapon...to get around US export laws and sell to China. It is something you point at ma an pa. They have smaller versions the Secret Service uses to deny area access to people.....when they need to.

What I meant is that it is hardly a weapon of war... you will not find bits of people and dead bodies scattered over the battlefield because of this.

A sound wave can be concentrated and used to cause serious discomfort, but at the end of the day ear plugs, and a physical shield with sound insulation lining will block and deflect sound waves.

It is not some super weapon... the big flat antenna they use to direct the sound waves can be targeted and destroyed. The van that carries the electronics and power supply can be blown up in a war situation.

It is potentially a weapon of war but not ideal and not all powerful.

In fact in many ways it might be a useful short range communication option that to be intercepted the enemy needs to get directly between those communicating with this.

In many ways a blinding laser is much easier to create... in fact there are surgical lasers in use right now that cut through flesh as easy as a red hot knife would cut through butter, so using it at significant distances to blind would not really be that difficult.

The problem is that what you can use can be used against you so while you might fear being blinded or deafened permanently then so does your enemy so to prevent it neither will use it.

A desperate enemy that does use it may find it rather easy to counter and that when used against you it is just as effective as it is against them so any advantages you might get from it are lost when it is eventually used against you.

They've ordered an initial batch of the new type of body armour shown on Maks, but I didn't save the report and I can't find it now.

...

Speaking of Laser jamers, this look interesting

PAPV - portable optical and electronic countermeasures device
http://www.kbtochmash.ru/products/products_5.html

Countermeasures device is unveiled

The Nudelman company is featuring its portable automatic device for optical
and electronic countermeasures (PAPV), which using a built-in laser radar, has
been developed to detect camouflaged snipers or antitank systems.

Moreover, after detecting the target, the power-emitting laser may ‘blind’ the enemy’s
optical or optoelectronic equipment, but since its operation is non-lethal,
its use is allowed under the Geneva Convention.

An important feature of the PAPV is its target selectivity, achieved by the
use of special processing algorithms that eliminate signals reflected from
glass, viewfinders and other diffusion reflecting objects. However, the system
can disable a fighter or equipment for a long period.

The PAPV’s operating range is 0.3-1.5km and it weighs 56kg.

To ease portability it can be divided into two parts, each weighing 28kg. These
modules consist of the radiation and power supply units as well as the storage
battery and the night vision device.

The PAPV is being promoted on world markets by Rosoboronexport for
use by special army and police units, as well as for the protection of VIPs
and specially protected sites.

Jane's Defence - 2005

Effective Range = 0.9 miles

.50 caliber Sniper Rifle = 1.1 miles plus

Maybe why the PAPV articles are from 2005?

2 Watt Laser?

For $300-$400 you can buy a similiar powered laser (which is handheld and the size of a flashlight)....in the US.

you don't need 2 guys to carry it in 2 separate pieces.


1 Watt for Civilians:

www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_III_Pro_Arctic_Series-96-37.html

2 Watts of cutting power for Research/manufacturing/teaching....$400.

They'll both burn your eyeballs out. Amazing it's considered by Russia "Non-lethal"....and allowed by Geneva Convention.

okkay then. Laser fire away it is....

Crank out the UV Laser and start breaking down some DNA. Can you imagine old war vets with a 3rd leg growing on their head. "What happened to you?"....."War injury...got hit with a UV laser right between the eyes"....cracked my DNA and started growing this frogs foot." ......."that ain't the worst of it"......."got hit in the rear and and have a horses tail as well".......

UV Lasers to the battle field would be....pretty nutz. ....yet "Non-lethal"....per Russia's interpretation of the Geneva Convention.

Actually that PAPV laser jammer was in the 2000 book of Russian Arms for export, and it is the export model of a system that is rather older.

I suspect with new laser technology it will be much more powerful and much lighter.

Its purpose was to damage optics like telescopic sights and EO systems.

It acts like a laser radar in that it uses a laser beam reflected off a vibrating mirror that generates a laser line instead of a single laser point. This laser line is then scanned around in an arc looking for reflections from the objective lens of optical systems. When reflections are detected a much more powerful beam is directed at the optics to "disable them".

Have read that they have made a few breakthroughs in work on gamma ray lasers, or grazers.

If you look at the spectrum of EM energy you will see gamma rays at the top and they have enormous energy. In a nuclear detonation there are alpha rays, beta rays, and gamma rays. Alpha rays wont penetrate clothing. Beta rays are stopped by skin. Gamma rays will go through lead.
In terms of danger however it is gamma rays that are the most lethal and destroy living tissue at the cellular level.

Anyway... what I am trying to say is that this is not just a laser toy, and the system has no doubt move on in terms of laser technology.