RUSSIA - INDIA Military Contracts

flamming_python wrote:Maybe the Indian army or gendarme requested a trial batch. Maybe it's for some police counter-terror units who are given freedom to choose their stocks of firearms

I gather Local homeland security forces of one or two states need the AK-15. What's interesting is orders for AK-203 has already been placed. India will receive it shortly. So why the AK-15?

Is the AK-15 radically different from the AK-203?

Sujoy wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Maybe the Indian army or gendarme requested a trial batch. Maybe it's for some police counter-terror units who are given freedom to choose their stocks of firearms

I gather Local homeland security forces of one or two states need the AK-15. What's interesting is orders for AK-203 has already been placed. India will receive it shortly. So why the AK-15?

Is the AK-15 radically different from the AK-203?

I would say considerably different.

AK-15 is based on AK-12 while AK-203 is on AK-103.
The AK-15 has adjustable gas valve, floating handguard (not touching barrel) and different muzzle brake.
Both featured top cover rail but use different locking mechanism.

The updated (2020) version of AK-12 has different stock tho.

Post 805 above says they plan to produce 6 million AK-203s in India and that they have ordered 70K rifles already made to be delivered immediately, as production starts in India...

So someone else in India also wants AK-15s... which is just an AK-12 in 7.62 x 39mm calibre really.

The AK-203 is an AK-100 series rifle with some of the early AK-12 improvements.

Perhaps some want to test the full AK-12 in 7.62 x 39mm before production of the AK-203 starts... but you would think they would have ordered batches of both rifles for testing before talking about producing AK-203s.

Of course the AK-15s might be for special forces and the AK-203s for the general troops... the AK-203 is a good rifle with most of the AKM bugs sorted and made to a good quality.

If you look at Russian troops the normal riflemen had AK-74s, but recon units had the AS suppressed 9 x 39mm rifles, and also those operating crew served weapons used AKS-74U weapons.

Currently they will likely be AK-12s for riflemen and ASMs for recon forces and that new short barrel weapon for the crews.

GarryB wrote:So someone else in India also wants AK-15s...  which is just an AK-12 in 7.62 x 39mm calibre really.

But Post 813 says that AK 15 is "considerably different" from AK-203?

So either you are correct or that other guy.

Russia begins delivery of advanced S-400 missile systems to India – Moscow, 14/11/2021.

Russia has begun supplying India with state-of-the-art S-400 mobile air defense missile systems under the terms of a contract signed in 2018. Moscow has already delivered the top-of-the-range weaponry to China and Turkey.

“The deliveries of the S-400 equipment for India have started, and are proceeding according to schedule,” the head of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC), Dmitry Shugayev, told RIA Novosti.

The value of the exports amounts to $5.4 billion.

The deal could potentially make India liable for penalties owing to the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) law. The 2017 legislation imposed sanctions on Russia in response to alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election. Iran and North Korea were also targeted, for different stated reasons.

In October, a group of US senators introduced a bill that would exempt India, which Washington has drawn closer to amid the rise of China, from sanctions for buying the S-400s.

https://www.rt.com/russia/540233-russia-delivers-s400-india/

I said:

AK-15s... which is just an AK-12 in 7.62 x 39mm calibre really

But Post 813 says that AK 15 is "considerably different" from AK-203?

So either you are correct or that other guy.

That other guy, I assume you mean Zepia?

Who said:

I would say considerably different.

AK-15 is based on AK-12 while AK-203 is on AK-103.

The AK-12 and AK-15 are essentially the same rifle... the AK12 is for Russian use and is in 5.45 x 39mm calibre, while the AK-15 is the same rifle but in 7.62 x 39mm for soldiers in the Russian military who want to use that calibre like special forces, and for export.

The AK-203 the Indians are making for themselves are not based on the AK-12 and are actually based on the AK-74M design, which was in 5.45 x 39mm calibre. The full rifle length barrel version was the AK-103 in 7.62 x 39mm which is what the AK-203 is based on, but with new stocks and updated design... not AK-12 updated, but still improved from the original.

In other words we are both saying the same thing... if it makes it any clearer in tank terms, the AK-103 is a T-72, an AK-203 is a T-90 and the AK-12 is a T-14.... so the AK-15 would be a T-14 with a different calibre gun that suited the Indians better.

The deal could potentially make India liable for penalties owing to the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) law. The 2017 legislation imposed sanctions on Russia in response to alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election. Iran and North Korea were also targeted, for different stated reasons.

With the key source of information in the Steele report proven to be faked and paid for by the Clinton foundation, shouldn't CAATSA be struck from the books?

It should certainly be ignored by India because US laws don't apply to India... or any other country for that matter...

Russia Could Ink $2Bln in Military Deals With India Amid Modi-Putin Talks, Media Claims, by Rishikesh Kumar for Sputniknews. 29/11/2021.

Russia's President Vladimir Putin is scheduled to visit New Delhi for the 21st India-Russia Annual Summit on 6 December. Experts reckon that New Delhi will not bow to America's CAATSA whereby countries are sanctioned for dealing with 'adversaries' of the US and it will proceed with defence deals and pacts to reassert its partnership with Russia.

Russia could clinch defence deals worth more than $2 billion and sign pacts for the armed forces which have been pending a long time while President Vladimir Putin visits New Delhi at the beginning of December, the Times of India reported.

This will be the first face-to-face meeting between Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi since the talks they held on the sidelines of the BRICS summit in Brasilia in November 2019.

In the run-up to the Modi-Putin summit, talks have already begun to put the finishing touches on a wide-ranging strategic-defence plan, The Times of India daily reported on Monday.
India has already passed a $702 million deal to make more than 671,000 AK-203 Kalashnikov rifles at an eastern Indian facility in Uttar Pradesh state's Amethi city.

The paper reported that India's $1.5 billion deal to buy the Very Short-Range Air Defence System (VSHORADS) from Russia is also now in its "final stages". The $2.9 billion of deals for 21 MiG-29 and 12 additional Sukhoi-30 MKIs are expected to be signed next year.

Contracts are likely to be signed despite the threat of pressure being brought against New Delhi under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), a US act designed to deter other nations from entering into military deals with Russia, Iran, and North Korea - countries considered by America to be "adversaries".

Section 231 of the act says that any "significant transactions" with Russian defence entities could trigger sanctions. The US administration applied sanctions to China and Turkey for buying S-400 missiles from Russia in 2018 and 2020, respectively. It also threatened India with sanctions even though New Delhi negotiated the acquisition of S-400 missiles before 2017 - the year CAATSA was passed.

A military expert cited by the Times of India said that the US may try applying pressure to India over the forthcoming Russian hardware sales which represent a "significant transaction" but New Delhi will put its national interest first.

"India does not in principle accept unilateral sanctions, thus is not obligated to shape relations with strategic partners as Russia based on the threat or fear of CAATSA [sanctions] by the United States," Rahul Bhonsle, former brigadier of the Indian army and strategic analyst, told Sputnik.

When asked about sanctions by reporters, Arindam Bagchi, official spokesman of India's Ministry of External Affairs, said that India is pursuing an "independent foreign policy".

"This also applies to our defence acquisition and supplies, which are guided by our national security interests," he noted on Friday, 26 November.

Bagchi added that India has a special and privileged strategic partnership with Russia.

India's envoy to Russia, Bala Venkatesh Varma, said in November that annual defence contracts between India and Russia rose to $9 to $10 billion compared with $2 to $3 billion since 2017, the year the Trump administration passed CAATSA. "Russia has moved back again as the top defence partner of India," Varma said.

The ambassador listed a range of agreements, such as the Joint Commission on Technology and Science, Military-Technical cooperation for the next decade 2021-2031, and agreement on reciprocal logistic support for each other's armed forces, which are expected to be signed when Putin and Modi meet on 6 December.

Reversing the Trends

Deals expected to be signed during India-Russia Annual Summit on 6 December

1. AK-203 Assault Rifles ($702 Million)
2. VSHORAD ($1.5 Billion)
3. Agreement on Joint Commission on Technology and Science
4. Military-Technical cooperation for 2021-2031
5. Reciprocal Exchange of Logistic Support.

As far as signing military-technical agreements and procurement from Russia is concerned, strategic analyst Bhonsle also emphasised that India's decision will be based on operational defence requirements and not on the risk of CAATSA.

"If there is some negative fallout in our relations with the US, these will be in the short term, and India will be able to weather the shock," Bhonsle emphasised.

India will start by getting its first columns of the Russian S-400 "Triumf" air missile defence system as part of a $5.43 billion deal between New Delhi and Moscow for the supply of five such columns. The US has yet to decide whether it will impose sanctions under CAATSA on New Delhi over the Russia-India defence transaction for the S-400.

https://sputniknews.com/20211129/russia-could-ink-2bln-in-military-deals-with-india-amid-modi-putin-talks-media-claims-1091105369.html

Maybe India should sign into law that it will no longer buy weapons from countries that try to use their own laws to influence what India can or cannot buy to meet its own defence needs.

GarryB wrote:Maybe India should sign into law that it will no longer buy weapons from countries that try to use their own laws to influence what India can or cannot buy to meet its own defence needs.

You have to have a spine to do that. And India lacks that due to an inferiority complex.

miketheterrible wrote:You have to have a spine to do that. And India lacks that due to an inferiority complex.

What kind of inferiority complex?

RTN wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:You have to have a spine to do that. And India lacks that due to an inferiority complex.

What kind of inferiority complex?

The one where they worship the ground the British and US walk on. Believe me, it's a joke. Seen it myself.

Indians are stupid. They think weapons are so good they don't need to train or improve tactics.

Their air force is in such a shitty situation for its size that it would take 50 years to catch China.

They just buy different stuff that can't work togather becuse they were amazed at an arms expo. Just like arabs in general who buy everything they see there.

Last time their russian made helicopter was destroyed by their israeli made SAM because they were fighting pakistani 200km away with russian made sukhois that couldn't communicate with the nearby french made Mirage-2000 and their indian made coomunications being jammed by Pakistani stuff.


Their navy isn't better. French made subs that have to work with russian and indian made ships using russian and israeli stuff. It will end up with fracticide kills.

Their army is also total bullshit. Used to be integrated well with russian/soviet equipement but now they are buying nato stuff like Apache helicopters that can't work with the t-90s on the ground which also use 125mm ammo that their arjun can't use.

It's a total mess.

IMO India vs China is a draw. Indians will kill each other while chinese will die of laughing looking at them .

Isos wrote:Indians are stupid. They think weapons are so good they don't need to train or improve tactics.

Stupid of course, they have one of the lowest IQ in the world.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country

But they buy weapons from the West not because of their stupidity but because they are totally corrupt. In fact they are one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank

In conclusion, it's this deadly cocktail of low IQ and high corruption that has kept them 3rd world forever.

I think you are being a bit harsh... in terms of full scale war India should have sufficient experience to have a better force, but they seem to believe that anything western that is expensive is somehow better than a Russian equivalent that actually works.

Hence pissing around with Israeli SAMs and upgrading SA-6 Soviet SAMs, when they would actually get rather more bang for their buck licence producing Pantsir missiles and making the missiles themselves in enormous numbers.

There are two critical things about a SAM... first that it works, and second that it is cheap enough that you have them in enormous numbers.

They want to make things themselves but they choose things like light fighters that they will never need more than about 500 of... which means it will never become profitable and always remain expensive which is the opposite of what you want for a light fighter.

They need to pick the things they licence produce based on how many are they going to end up making and what prospects are there of ending up making some of their own and even exporting them.

Fifth gen fighter aircraft... probably not, but drones would be a fantastic area for them to get in to... the engines, the sensors, the datalinks, the cameras... and it has been shown recently that having lots of cheap drones can make a real difference no matter what weapons the enemy has.

India is getting wooed by the US and the US can be very charming and they will have plenty of money because they know they are going to make it all back and more... so they can throw a lot more money wining and dining the people who decide...

And they are getting results, partially because their leader is US leaning, but how long will that last... how long can the US hide the crazy?

They have already violated Indian waters and demand India stop buying S-400s... there is still time to avoid this train crash, but I suspect most Indians see what US and western investment into China did for their economy and they want those multinational companies to head in their direction... Trump was anti China because he wanted that investment and production to move out of China and back to the US... but these companies are bastards... they will be looking at Bangledesh or Myanmar.... where human rights and workers rights don't exist.

this has become very racist abusive forum gone are the days when mature discussions took place here

Pinto wrote:this has become very racist abusive forum gone are the days when mature discussions took place here

Nothing racist. Just that there are too many third world posters in this forum who post third rate stuff.

Nah bro you guys have a rich and noble history. I think most here just feel that India tilting west is a bad idea. I understand why, tho. The fear of China and desire for better economic development. Problem is the western world is in a strange, dark way.

But I understand why many Indians feel they 2ant to unite with the west. They also still want to be allies with Russia, but it is very complex. I think india building it's own MIC is great. I hope you guys pave your own way and stay true to your alliances.

I may hate the corruption from India that has gotten India into the pad predicament that exists now as ISOS pointed out. But Indians as a whole can be pretty based. Most of the heavy concervative, anti SJW and anti LGBTQFLQMNOP!!?1 groups are from the Indian community.

Pinto wrote:this has become very racist abusive forum gone are the days when mature discussions took place here

When was that?

flamming_python wrote:

Pinto wrote:this has become very racist abusive forum gone are the days when mature discussions took place here

When was that?

Bro, anything is better than f-16.net tier forums. The ass kissing is beyond belief. Should be called f-35-apologeticsforfags.net

Also want to say something about Indians claiming racism. It is obviously real, but no worse than what I have seen on Pakistani and Indian defense forums, particularly with those of a nationalist (based) bent.

This shit happens, but a lot of what is claimed as racism is simply irritation about geopolitics by average joes here on defense sites. Some invective is used and it can be harsh but much of it is certainly not racist. I guess it could be defined as such if you have progressivist ideological beliefs, but their views are as nutty as any old wignat.

There are legit criticisms made about "whites" and "indians" and much of it is legit because the issues are complex but is necessarily framed within simpler interpersonal contexts.

But if I say this I'm a literal nazi and I am definitely a white nationalist that has dangerous antisocial tendencies. ffs.

Everyone is racist to a degree. It's human nature. I married a woman from India. Love brown skin on woman, I find it sexy. I enjoy her as well as she is nice, very smart and loving. Also conservative like myself. I also love her family as they are very open and accepting of me. Hell, they call me on my birthday. My own family besides my parents don't do that.

I prefer them over most whites here as the whites here can be pretentious assholes.

I'm not racist I have an indian friend .

Joke apart, in my first statement when I said indians and arabs are stupid I was refering to the army decision makers. Not the people.

The only way to not be racist is to treat everyone the same, which most people hate too, because it is their differences that make them the race or group they are.

For goodness sake, people get called racist for saying black people like fried chicken, but of course when you say something like that it is of course a generalisation... you can't be talking about all black people, and more importantly I am not black and I like fried chicken.

It is like saying all police officers are donut addicts that can't control themselves... a stereotype but also sometimes right.

Personally I think someone that judges a group of people based on the colour of their skin are idiots, but then there are some groups of people I don't have much respect for either... nazis, zionists, rabid anti commies... did you know that on RT there was a report about that guy brevik that shot all those children on that island.... he killed 71 people dressed up as a police officer and the limit on his sentence was 21 years... so he will not have a huge amount of time left to serve, but even on the RT site there were people in the comment section that supported what he did because those kids were at a socialist camp.

Society is full of some very sick people, so why would a forum on the internet be any different.

At least here you know where you stand, because people are not required to hide their true thoughts.

I don't think banning people solves the problem, racism is real and everyone has to deal with it.

The way not to be racist is to treat everyone as an individual and not voice any obviously inflammatory shit (which more often than not is a crude generalization or opinion born of ignorance of the issue)

Someone above said that everyone is racist
True, everyone has biases and prejudides. But don't treat someone like crap online or insult their people just because you had some bad experiences with their nationality or religion or whatever. You wouldn't want it done to you, just because someone once met some schmucks from your country.