Victor Bout arms dealer case

Thailand vows objective hearing for Russian arms dealer - Lavrov
RIA Novosti

24/07/200911:41

BANGKOK, July 24 (RIA Novosti) - The Thai authorities have promised to handle the extradition case of arms dealer Viktor Bout objectively and without politicizing the situation, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Friday.

Bout, a Russian businessman accused by the United States of illegal arms dealing, was arrested in March last year in Thailand. Washington has asked Thailand to extradite Bout, who says the charges against him are politically motivated.

"We have been given assurances that the case will be handled objectively and without any kind of politicizing," Lavrov said at a news conference in Thailand's capital.

A Thai court said in May it would announce its ruling on Bout's extradition on August 11.

The United States accuses Bout of conspiring with others to sell millions of dollars' worth of weapons to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC).
The court will also deliver its verdict on Bout's lawsuit over his "unlawful custody."

Bout has consistently denied the accusations against him, and said in late May that the case was fabricated by the U.S. government for political reasons.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/07/mil-090724-rianovosti05.htm

A yes, Viktor Bout... the so called arms dealer. I don't see Afrikans trying to extradite him and that is the place where most arms went to. What authority does the US have to extradite a man who sold to Columbia? This should be short hearing.

Russian arms dealer Victor Bout's defense wins delay


New York - A United States court agreed on Friday to give Russian alleged arms dealer Victor Bout's lawyers more time to study his case and adjourned a pretrial hearing until January 21.
Judge Shira Scheindlin of the Southern District in New York gave Bout's court-appointed lawyers an additional 11 days rather than the 30 days they requested. Bout had been scheduled to appear on Monday in court.
In their request, the lawyers said: 'The adjournment is necessary as we are still reviewing the discovery in this case. The completion of our review has been slowed by both the volume of discovery and the restrictive conditions of Mr Bout's confinement.'
They said a 30-day adjournment would serve 'the ends of justice and outweigh the interests of the public and the defendant in a speedy trial.'
Bout was extradited on November 16 from Thailand to the United States, prompting strong protests from the Russian government. He was wanted for allegedly trafficking in weapons that fueled civil wars from Afghanistan to Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Sudan.
Bout allegedly employed hundreds of people and had a fleet of airplanes and ships at his disposal to carry out his trade as one of the biggest arms dealers of recent decades.
Arms trafficking prosecutions are fraught with legal loopholes, which London-based international relief and development charity Oxfam said can allow arms traffickers to manoeuvre out of legal jeopardy in the absence of an international treaty regulating the lucrative arms trade around the world.
Oxfam and other non-governmental organizations have been campaigning for an Arms Trade Treaty through the United Nations, to regulate arms trafficking on the ground. Such a treaty would also fight terrorism and help prevent violations of international human rights conventions.
'Unscrupulous arms traders are experts at exploiting these legal loopholes - and without a binding treaty that regulates the global arms trade, we're just making it too easy for them to continue to do so,' said Oistein Thorsen of Oxfam in New York.
'Even if one arms dealer faces trial, there are still dozens operating freely in this grey area of international law.'
Supporters of an Arms Trade Treaty have called on UN governments to agree on such a binding deal to assist and encourage individual countries to fight traffickers. But UN talks bogged down in dispute among the world's biggest arms manufacturers. About 60 countries have established domestic legislation against arms trafficking.
A former Soviet Air Force officer, Bout, 43, was detained by Thai authorities in March 2008, in a US-led sting operation involving US agents acting as arms buyers for a leftist rebel group. Bout rejected charges against him, calling them 'US fabrication.

Very simply put an arms dealer cannot operate without government support.

I rather suspect that Bouts crime was that he was supplying weapons and equipment when the US flip flopped... as they often do.

Quite a few western mercs who were fighting on the side of the taleban against the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan did so with tacit US and western support because Russia was supporting the Northern Alliance. When OBL finally managed to knock down the twin towers and because for cultural reasons the Taleban were obligated not to give him up even if they wanted to all of a sudden the Northern Alliance became the good guys (in comparison) and anyone fighting with the Taleban were now terrorists.

Those supplying the Taleban suddenly overnight became criminals and it was a question of how quickly you could change sides... BTW Saudi Arabia are experts in this area.
Those who do not change in time are arrested for helping terrorist organisations endanger the lives of US soldiers or some such crap.

I have read that Bout actually ran airlines in Africa and only made a small fraction of his income in transporting weapons... something like 10%.

The irony is that a while back when the Ukraine was still trying to get into bed with the US a Ukrainian registered vessel carrying tanks to a certain African country in violation of international embargo that was captured by pirates is largely ignored, though when first reported in the western media it was described as a Russian vessel. When it was found to be a Ukrainian vessel with Ukrainian Tanks on board there was very little further coverage in the west and the story pretty much died.

Seems to me Bouts guilt is based largely on the fact that he is Russian and used to be in the Russian AF.

Well I didn't know much about him other than his name and the basic background, and I vaguely recalled having read that South Africa seemed to know a bit about him...




From Wiki...


Charges in the United States

The day after his Bangkok arrest, the U.S. Department of Justice charged Bout with conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization,[70] conspiring to kill Americans, conspiring to kill American officers or employees, and conspiring to acquire and use an anti-aircraft missile.[58]

Additional charges against him were filed in February 2010.[71] These include illegal purchase of aircraft, wire fraud, and money laundering.[2]



-----------



Conspiring to kill Americans- bogus and baseless charge...

Conspiring to kill American officers or employees- bogus and baseless charge...

Conspiring to acquire and use an anti-aircraft missile- bogus and baseless charge...

Illegal purchase of an aircraft????? Isn't the USA supposedly a free-market society! Anybody should be free to purchase a pickup truck, a motorcycle, or an aircraft, at their leisure and at their discretion. Since when did people in America have to account for every time their burp.


Wire fraud- don't know, seems dubious...

Money laundering- don't know, seems dubious...

Conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization- Seems to warrant some investigation, but I have to wonder, "designated FTO" designated by who, by what agency, by what body? If his country doesn't classify the Taliban of 1995 as an FTO but the USA does, which laws should be bound by? Of all the charges this is the only one that would possibly merit investigating, and the particulars would be important... Any deliveries made prior to 9/11 are pretty much a non-issue.

The way the US government bullied the Thai government into handing him over they clearly want him badly which does not bode well for the chances of a fair trial...

BTW the case has already been heard... he is clearly guilty... haven't you seen the movie yet?





He sells guns... and he is making a killing.

From the country that sells the most arms in the world... but only to freedom fighters.

What jurisdiction does the US have over an Afrikan arms smuggler? WTF does it have to do with them anyway?

Just all part of the usual US BS...

They will violate the sovereignty of a country in central and south america and fire bomb poppy fields, but in Afghanistan they protect the poppy farmers... cause hey... they have to earn a good living right?

Communist Soviet Union is bad... democratic Russia is Communist Soviet Union.
Communist Cuba is bad so embargo, Communist Vietnam is now OK.
The US still has better trade relations with communist China than democratic Russia and still they complain Russia is not democratic enough.

Does anyone actually pay attention to what they say anymore?

seriosly i dont mind if this trash gets jailed, he might was just a pawn of actaully even for the US in the traffecing industry but overall and specialy if he like accused to have dilivered arms to islamists and even had some sort of buissnes with al quida he needs to go so or so, he is not a friend or a patriot to the russian state and interest

im just a littel pissed of that he will be convicted by USA, this trash pawn should face russian court and rot in russian jail somewhere in sibirien

We all know who Viktor bout is.... He is a man motivated by greed, drugs and the love for shipping guns to third world sh:D:D holes where lawlessness and violence perpetually persist.  He is the LORD OF WAR! His automatic Kalashnikovs, shipped in old VVS Antonovs are responsible for all the genocides from the west coast of Africa to the jungles of Colombia.  In western sensationalist media and even their microcosm psychological instigator, Hollywood, Mr. Bout is portrait to be this evil human being responsible for the death of American {even though no such link exist}. By the arrest of Victor Bout there would be no more violence, supporting of terrorist and proliferation of arms in the world. The World is now saved:rolling.{sarcasm off}However these are the fabricated realities.
As of today, Mr. Bout have not been tried in an international court and therefore not guilty. He has been illegally extradited to the states via a precedent of US hegemonic imperialism in which the United States Justice System is the International Criminal Court. A question need to be asked as Mr. Bout being a citizen of The Russian Federation is, why was he not extradited back to Russia? Secondly since INTERPOL had dealings with him, why was he not transferred to them? Is the United States international law?
Additionally western sensationalist media {notice I don't mention the word 'press' 2 different things} label him as the only person guilty of such breaches of international law when concurrently US Attorney General Eric Holder and his cohorts have publically in breach of international law , and which is equivalent to state sponsor of terrorism, shipped guns into a foreign country (Mexico) to the benefit of terrorist gangs that degenerate Mexico into disrepute. These acts have not only resulted in the death of the US Consulate members in Mexico but have resulted in the lives and blood of thousands of Mexicans. If that doesn't warrant state terrorism, funding of terrorist and complicity to murder United States citizens what does? This is also seen internationally  when foreign governments, US  included personally arm terrorist groups operating in the nations of countries which set them back decades in development, economically, politicallly and sustainably. As the fog clears, it seems Mr. Bout is looking just as a mere victim of imperialists adgendas eh?
           Assuming that Mr. Bout is guilty of arms shipment, doesn't there now exist a vacuum for in his controlled turf ? Yes! However this vacuum was filled by western agencies in their arms shipment. I have seen videos of French Foreign intelligence, where The Service Action field officers in the sub Saharan African making dealings with rebels. Not only are the French complicit, but Israeli guns, American guns and guns smuggled from Arab gulf regimes have all found themselves present worldwide with increased prevalence post Victor bout crackdown.
          So what are the motives for Victor Bouts arrest? Actually their exist both political and economic interests at hand.  The political interests are presently seen in the Arab spring. On the notion that Mr. Bout was an arms dealer, it is alleged he supplied Hezbollah’s military arm, Libyan Dictator Gadaffi and Syrian Government. Concerning Hez. it is believed he was responsible for the supply AT-rockets that devastated the Israeli's order of battle during the 2006 war, and it is assumed that due to this main reason of Antagonism and threat to western neocolonialist goals in the middle east , it made him an instant superstar. The economic interests favors towards the western MIC especially in France, United States, Israel and Britain as they can now have significant control of the illegal arms black market which would generate income their respective economy needs in these times of hardship. This however would not favor Russian military , economic or political interest as a strong link have been broken
           What outcome could we expect from the Victor Bout case? If the present diplomatic foolishness on the Russian Side continues, we could expect comrade Bout being hanged, of faced with life in US prisons or even worse, Guantanamo or CIA Renditions to pro western eastern block or middle eastern prisons where he would be tortured. If enough Russian pressure is put on he could be tired fairly in an international court or even extradited to Russia .

An extremely rare interview with Viktor Bout. U.S. officials tried to coerce him in to lying about Putin, which he refused stating he didn't really know Putin personally so there was no dirt to spill (at the 5:30 Mark)

magnumcromagnon wrote:An extremely rare interview with Viktor Bout. U.S. officials tried to coerce him in to lying about Putin, which he refused stating he didn't really know Putin personally so there was no dirt to spill (at the 5:30 Mark)

Such prisoner pressure tactics constitute 100% human rights abuse. The USA is openly violating any number of treaties and UN declarations
it signed involving human rights. This behaviour is also a violation of US law, but the US pretends that non-citizens do not have
any rights even on US soil. This is yet another violation of human rights. Citizenship does not determine human rights or any other
rights. Being human is what determines those rights.

America is a smelly toilet of brazen, bloody hypocrisy and human rights abuse. That is why its fake stream media bleats about alleged
human rights violations in other countries. To keep the sheeple diverted. It also bleats about human rights and humanitarianism to
lubricate US imperial wars of aggression.

kvs wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:An extremely rare interview with Viktor Bout. U.S. officials tried to coerce him in to lying about Putin, which he refused stating he didn't really know Putin personally so there was no dirt to spill (at the 5:30 Mark)

Such prisoner pressure tactics constitute 100% human rights abuse.  The USA is openly violating any number of treaties and UN declarations
it signed involving human rights.  This behaviour is also a violation of US law, but the US pretends that non-citizens do not have
any rights even on US soil.  This is yet another violation of human rights.  Citizenship does not determine human rights or any other
rights.  Being human is what determines those rights.  

America is a smelly toilet of brazen, bloody hypocrisy and human rights abuse.  That is why its fake stream media bleats about alleged
human rights violations in other countries.  To keep the sheeple diverted.  It also bleats about human rights and humanitarianism to
lubricate US imperial wars of aggression.

Well said. Victor Bout is a political prisoner in the US. US has been kidnapping Russians and placing them in jail in the US and that alone I believe is a human rights abuse.

PhSt wrote:

Well said. Victor Bout is a political prisoner in the US. US has been kidnapping Russians and placing them in jail in the US and that alone I believe is a human rights abuse.

Russia needs to do the same. Kidnap Americans and let them rot in a desolate jail in Siberia. now when the US bitch about it, just say that we are simply returning you the favour. its that simple.

I agree, tit for tat is the best gaming strategy. Nobody can win and in the real world this creates a strong incentive for aggressive "players" to
back off. The yanquis believe that they can rule the world. Giving them a quick kick to the 'nads at the right moments is the optimal approach
to control their bullying.

I don't think Russia would have much of a future if it decides to emulate US behaviour.

I think now that Russia is selling rocket technology to China... they should also start selling it to India and South Africa and Iran and anyone else who wants to buy it like North Korea, and stop selling it to the US.

If the US doesn't want Russia to do that then Russia has a list of terms... including the immediate release of the Russian political prisoners the US has in its jails, and of course ending anti Russian activities regarding WADA and the international Chem and Bio warfare org they have tainted too...

Russia can either be left alone or it can actively work against the west and the decision as to which Russia applies itself is up to the US and its actions.

GarryB wrote:I don't think Russia would have much of a future if it decides to emulate US behaviour.

I think now that Russia is selling rocket technology to China... they should also start selling it to India and South Africa and Iran and anyone else who wants to buy it like North Korea, and stop selling it to the US.

If the US doesn't want Russia to do that then Russia has a list of terms... including the immediate release of the Russian political prisoners the US has in its jails, and of course ending anti Russian activities regarding WADA and the international Chem and Bio warfare org they have tainted too...

Russia can either be left alone or it can actively work against the west and the decision as to which Russia applies itself is up to the US and its actions.

It is not about emulating. It is about bending over backwards to please the NATO west. Russia already arrested and put on trial some US
"investor" crook. So it is pulling the "kidnap" card in a way. But I agree it should not act like some capricious empire breaking the law on
a whim.

It is not about emulating. It is about bending over backwards to please the NATO west. Russia already arrested and put on trial some US
"investor" crook. So it is pulling the "kidnap" card in a way. But I agree it should not act like some capricious empire breaking the law on
a whim.

Yeah, that is where I think you are wrong... the guy the Russians arrested was in Russia and was obviously doing something pretty dodgy... the Russian we are talking about... Victor Bout was in Thailand and it was US agents who wanted him to get stinger missiles for them for some war somewhere... in other words they created the whole situation... he didn't initiate anything.

Trying to say one is the same as the other is just bullshit... and if we listen to you we will have real criminals being swapped for random Russians who happen to go to places where the US has extradition no question asked agreements.

In that case Russia should arrest every US citizen they can get their hands on and put them up on false charges and then just hold them as hostages for when the US does the same... which would just escalate things pointlessly.

Right now a Russian is in US prison who owned a air transport company and wouldn't cooperate with the US with dirt on Putin. That Butina chick is also serving time for not signing up as a foreign agent because she was not a foreign agent. She was a wide eyed pro US Russian who liked guns and American rights and wanted Russia to be more open and liberal about guns and it has bitten her in the ass. Would love to hear her talk about how wonderful america is after she gets released... one russian cured of the american dream right there.

Maybe when she gets back to Russia she can shoot an american citizen and the russian justice system can find her guilty and sentence her to time served and release her... who is the current US ambassador to Russia?

Right now Russias most appealing features are that it has comparable technology to the west, but without the moral judgemental BS and demands we all assimilate and conform to their rules. Russia is a don't judge me and I wont judge you type of country and that is appealing to countries getting screwed over by the west and then told they should be grateful.

GarryB wrote:I think now that Russia is selling rocket technology to China... they should also start selling it to India and South Africa and Iran and anyone else who wants to buy it like North Korea, and stop selling it to the US.

These countries will make cheaper clones and sell it in the market. In the process they will drive out Russian companies from the market.

For instance the South Koreans purchased the technology behind Pantsir Then manufactured a cheap clone called K-30 Biho and is now selling it in the international arms market. So now sales of Pantsir has taken a beating.

These countries will make cheaper clones and sell it in the market. In the process they will drive out Russian companies from the market.

Why am I surprised you said this....

The Americans can't make the damn things themselves... why do you think the Chinese could?

And as far as I know they are selling the production technology, they are not just selling them individual rocket motors like they did with the US, though with the US they did sell them the full plans and specs details.

Right now a US company makes the complex titanium parts for Safran jet engines for France. The only other place that can make such things to the required precision is Russia and they make these engines amongst other things. Even the French couldn't make these engines if you handed over examples and plans.

China will be able to make them because Russia is going to hand them the technology and skills to do so.

They wont be able to make cheap clones to sell on the open market... because you can't make them cheaply... this is very high tech shit.

And even if they could there are not many countries that would even be able to use them let alone be able to pay for them.

Very simply there is no market where they can make money from it in any significant way.

What it will do, however, is be an enormous boost to their space launch capacity as these engines are eye wateringly powerful things.

In return China is selling to Russia some very useful high tech microelectronics technology that presumably the west wont sell to them.

Sounds like a win win to me.

For instance the South Koreans purchased the technology behind Pantsir Then manufactured a cheap clone called K-30 Biho and is now selling it in the international arms market. So now sales of Pantsir has taken a beating.

The South Koreans created a much less capable system that is much cheaper, so countries that can't afford a better system can buy that. The countries that could afford Pantsir will pay the extra because they know it is more capable. The K-30 is just a vehicle with two 30mm cannon mounted on it with radars fitted and EO systems fitted, and in the current model has MANPADS mounted on it. Its max range is 7km which does not even outrange Vikhr ATGMs let alone Hermes which reaches to double that range.

The guns are described as being effective to 3km and missiles to 7km.... in comparison the Pantsir has more than three times the 30mm cannon ammo on board and much better sensors and an effective range of 4km with guns of a much higher rate of fire, and more missiles with a range almost 3 times more at 20km in the current model. The Pantsir missiles are also much faster so the engagement times will be shorter allowing more targets to be engaged... compounded with more ready to launch missiles making that possible.

Pantsir is going to be selling very very well in the next few years as countries take notice what it has been doing in Syria over the last few years... especially compared with western equivalents like 35mm towed cannon mounts and short range SAMs in Saudi Arabia.

The main contract win by Biho was with India and I suspect it was selected simply because it was not Russian... when they put on international sale their new 57mm AAG systems I think some people in India will be very upset they chose the wrong system.

BTW it was the S-350 that the South Koreans have a version of and that is not related to the K-30.

Well

Now that the US has signed in new laws that allow them to steal assets of sanctions individuals and companies and use those funds to give to Ukraine Russia could perhaps do the same so all the lands in the former Ukraine that are going to become Russian territory will include farmland owned by powerful western companies that can be seized and handed over to the victims of this conflict... the Ukrainian people as collective farms to start with where food can be grown for the local population initially and then as production expands they can benefit from the profits...