Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Buk SAM system General Thread

    Share
    avatar
    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5673
    Points : 6324
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:06 pm

    hoom wrote:Buk-M3 test http://tass.ru/en/defense/884398
    The Buk-M3 system has a range of 70 kilometers ... a maximum firing altitude of 35 kilometers
    Isn't this using 9M317ME missile same as Shtil-1 on Grigorovich?
    Numbers quite a lot bigger than I've seen for that, namely 50km range & 15km vertical, is this dodgy numbers or a Domestic vs Export difference?

    One whole brigade of BUK-M3 will be delivered in 2016 or 3 BUK-M3 regiments. BUK systems deliveries largerly goes under the radar unnoticed but they act as a Dark Knight od the Russian air defense systems Very Happy
    avatar
    hoom
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 414
    Points : 414
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:50 am

    I have no idea how many launchers/sites that is No

    But yes its very easy to underestimate Buk, I thought poorly of it until very recently due to being a big old-style exposed missile.
    More recently I've learned that the fire director radar is not an old dish but a PESA & also that Buk actually has a very good record vs low, fast targets which is altogether a much better class than I'd thought.

    Gur-khan seems to be quoting same press release http://gurkhan.blogspot.co.nz/2016/06/3_24.html
    Has this pic

    I'd expected more of a difference since M3 is said to be a complete rework but does make more sense as an upgrade rather than fully new system.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4506
    Points : 4689
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:07 am

    hoom wrote:I have no idea how many launchers/sites that is No

    But yes its very easy to underestimate Buk, I thought poorly of it until very recently due to being a big old-style exposed missile.
    More recently I've learned that the fire director radar is not an old dish but a PESA & also that Buk actually has a very good record vs low, fast targets which is altogether a much better class than I'd thought.

    Gur-khan seems to be quoting same press release http://gurkhan.blogspot.co.nz/2016/06/3_24.html
    Has this pic

    I'd expected more of a difference since M3 is said to be a complete rework but does make more sense as an upgrade rather than fully new system.

    The new Buk-M3 has very comparable characteristics to the old S-300 (PS, PM), with the exception that one of the Buk-M3 vehicles is capable of holding 12 missiles compared to the 4 missiles on the early versions of S-300...that's a 3-fold increase in firepower btw!
    avatar
    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7264
    Points : 7564
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:57 am

    It makes sense to now cover a different aspect in the Army's air defense capabilities since Tor's newer missiles also fly quite high and far. This Buk-M3 gives it capabilities that at least meets between S-300V series and Tor. But something is needed between Tor and Buk and that is of course the possible track version of Pantsir (since Pantsir does outdo Tungushka quite a bit).

    Look forward to hearing test results (if it becomes public info).
    avatar
    hoom
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 414
    Points : 414
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  hoom on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:22 am

    So the Bastion-Karpenko page on Buk-M3 (which I really should have checked before previous post  Embarassed ) does quote the same 70km range/35km height & 9M317M/ME missile.
    Its in several year old quotes too so apparently is legit.
    avatar
    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5673
    Points : 6324
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:54 pm

    hoom wrote:So the Bastion-Karpenko page on Buk-M3 (which I really should have checked before previous post  Embarassed ) does quote the same 70km range/35km height & 9M317M/ME missile.
    Its in several year old quotes too so apparently is legit.

    Yes its legit. It was also mentioned previously in several other publications.

    One brigade should have 36 launchers (24 TELAR and 12 TEL)
    avatar
    robognus
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 16
    Points : 18
    Join date : 2016-07-29

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  robognus on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:41 am





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2113145.html
    avatar
    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 10008
    Points : 10498
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:05 pm

    The Russian Armed Forces have obtained two Buk-M2 missile systems batteries and one Buk-M3 missile system in July-September, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said Friday.

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201610211046578106-russia-buk-systems/


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    Skandalwitwe
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 29
    Points : 31
    Join date : 2016-10-22
    Location : beer breweries are numerous here

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Skandalwitwe on Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:07 pm

    ^^

    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5996
    Points : 6398
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:44 pm

    Is there any official information on what kind of Guidance does BUK-M3 uses , Does it uses similar guidance like BUK-M2 which is SARH or they use newer ones like Active Radar Homing ?
    avatar
    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2171
    Points : 2209
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  franco on Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:05 pm

    Skandalwitwe wrote:^^

    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    That is the loader launcher version or TELL. It has no attack ability on it's own but it's missiles can be launched as long as there is a TELAR (the 6 tube version which also has the tracking control radar) to control them. A normal battery has 2 TELAR's and 1 TELL. Three batteries with a TAR and C3 vehicle make up a battalion. Scheduled to deploy a brigade this year which normally is 3 battalions.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4506
    Points : 4689
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:35 pm

    franco wrote:
    Skandalwitwe wrote:^^

    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    That is the loader launcher version or TELL. It has no attack ability on it's own but it's missiles can be launched as long as there is a TELAR (the 6 tube version which also has the tracking control radar) to control them. A normal battery has 2 TELAR's and 1 TELL. Three batteries with a TAR and C3 vehicle make up a battalion. Scheduled to deploy a brigade this year which normally is 3 battalions.

    So a normal battery has 24 missiles ready to launch? Something like 6 per TELAR (x2), and 12 per TELL (x1), giving us 24?
    avatar
    franco
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2171
    Points : 2209
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  franco on Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:46 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Skandalwitwe wrote:^^

    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    That is the loader launcher version or TELL. It has no attack ability on it's own but it's missiles can be launched as long as there is a TELAR (the 6 tube version which also has the tracking control radar) to control them. A normal battery has 2 TELAR's and 1 TELL. Three batteries with a TAR and C3 vehicle make up a battalion. Scheduled to deploy a brigade this year which normally is 3 battalions.

    So a normal battery has 24 missiles ready to launch? Something like 6 per TELAR (x2), and 12 per TELL (x1), giving us 24?

    Correct. A battalion can attack 36 targets at once with 2 missiles each. The BUK-3 system will be able to launch twice as many missiles, at a 50% further distance with a higher kill ratio then the BUK-2M system just now being delivered.
    avatar
    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 16010
    Points : 16667
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:21 am

    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    In that top picture you can see the 6 tube and 12 tube model in the same field of view.

    Based on the angles and perspective I would say the 12 tube launcher is actually a S-350 TEL with a much slimmer missile.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Mindstorm
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 763
    Points : 944
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:55 am



    6 missiles launcher TELAR

    12 missiles launcher TEL

    Wink

    avatar
    Skandalwitwe
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 29
    Points : 31
    Join date : 2016-10-22
    Location : beer breweries are numerous here

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Skandalwitwe on Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    That configuration with 12 launch tubes is monstrous...can we expect it rolling out in numbers or is it merely a demonstrator?

    In that top picture you can see the 6 tube and 12 tube model in the same field of view.

    Based on the angles and perspective I would say the 12 tube launcher is actually a S-350 TEL with a much slimmer missile.


    Vityaz TEL looks very different with his 12 missiles...not allowed to post links for now but check for yourself.

    Mindstorm wrote:

    6 missiles launcher TELAR

    12 missiles launcher TEL

    Wink


    Almaz managed to double the number of missiles for the slave launchers...or even triple if you compare it with older Buk variants. Same with the new 9M338 misiles for Tor-M2.
    avatar
    mack8
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 954
    Points : 1014
    Join date : 2013-08-02

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  mack8 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:15 pm

    Buk-M3 footage after 15:00 minute
    http://www.voenvideo.ru/load/voennoe_video_smotret_onlajn/sluzhu_rossii_smotret_onlajn/sluzhu_rossii_ot_23_10_2016/24-1-0-6980

    Screenshots here:
    https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144361
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4506
    Points : 4689
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:35 pm

    mack8 wrote:Buk-M3 footage after 15:00 minute
    http://www.voenvideo.ru/load/voennoe_video_smotret_onlajn/sluzhu_rossii_smotret_onlajn/sluzhu_rossii_ot_23_10_2016/24-1-0-6980

    Screenshots here:
    https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=144361





    avatar
    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 458
    Points : 447
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Rmf on Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:25 pm

    what , no aesa? kinda dissapointing....
    also that IR camera could have been doubled for passive ranging.
    avatar
    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 10008
    Points : 10498
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:52 pm

    i like a lot the red tubes!! thumbsup



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2202900.html


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov


    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5996
    Points : 6398
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:06 pm

    Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2
    avatar
    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5374
    Points : 5419
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:47 pm

    Austin wrote:Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2

    That actually would depend on missile rather than system itself. System itself should be capable of using all missiles developed for BuK, as long as they are containered. I suspect both SARH and ARH (or hybrids with terminal ARH) will exist.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5996
    Points : 6398
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:22 pm

    Sort of confirmation BUK-M3 missile uses Active Radar Homing

    First Division SAM "Buk-M3" has already entered service with the Russian army. The difference is a new modification dramatically increased the range of the set - up to 70 km and a height of hitting the target - up to 35 km. "Buk-M3" is equipped with a new anti-aircraft missile 9M317M capable of acting on a "fire and forget." In this case the missile is now in the transport and launch container and start vertically (as C-300), instead of the target dovorachivat as old model "Bukov". With the new range of radar can simultaneously track and direct missiles at 36 targets.

    Читайте далее: http://izvestia.ru/news/640469#ixzz4OC2uvchp

    kopyo-21
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 63
    Points : 65
    Join date : 2013-08-21
    Location : Bangkok - Thailand

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:21 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Looks like they use SARH guidance and not ARH for M3 similar to BUK-M2

    That actually would depend on missile rather than system itself. System itself should be capable of using all missiles developed for BuK, as long as they are containered. I suspect both SARH and ARH (or hybrids with terminal ARH) will exist.
    Still depending on the system because the their guidance methods are different each other. The Sarh missiles use mid-course radio-commmand while Arh missiles use mid-course data-link updated. The guidance difference makes Arh missiles can launch vertically instead.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5996
    Points : 6398
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:40 am

    I am fairly certain now that BUK-M3 has Active Radar Homing for terminal guidance and the missile is not the same as Shtil-1 VLS which is 9M317M but a new missile or a deeply modernised variant of 9M317M.

    I have reasoned out at keypubs and I am posting my analysis for both systems below

     
    specs being displayed for Naval Shtil-1 system in VLS mode and BUK-M3 , these specs are drastically different infact to the extent the BUK-M3 would hardly be called a continuation of BUK if there was no mention of it.

    There is some smoke/mirror screen being played out.

    Think how can the same missile for BUK-M3 will show drastically different characteristics for VLS Naval SAM ?

    Naval VLS Shtil-1:  Range : 50 Km , Target Speed  850 m/sec , Altitude : 15 km , Number of Simultanous target track/guide : Max 12

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O3UgLpMK_k0/WACnMiLNhoI/AAAAAAAALsg/BiBRsXSKNJQuEIJKmCVe220AyZBkN2UYwCLcB/s1600/VL%2B9M317ME%2BSHTIL-1.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/TIXoSmnBSrI/AAAAAAAABE8/NvWaduMkw8M/s1600/SHTIL-4.jpg
    http://sohanews2.vcmedia.vn/2013/25-57902-b0d147cc3bbf694-1373192344843.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/TIYD90dn9zI/AAAAAAAABFM/9yBjPpIiO8E/s1600/Image-14.jpg

    BUK-M3:  Range: 70 km , Altitude: 25km , Target Speed: 3000 m/sec , Number of Similtanous target track/guide missile : 36 , Kill Probability: 0.999

    Do these interceptor looks identical by any yard stick ?

    As to why not 36 target , SARH guides the target till interception and hence there is a limitation on how many it can track and guide  you can clearly see the limitation to max 12-16 wrt to Shtil-1 , also you need multiple engagement radar , I read total 8 Orek to track/guide 16 Shtil-1 missile.

    When it comes to BUK-M3 it can track guide 36 missile because ARH allows you the independence in terminal homing leaving the radar to provide MCG to large number of targets  in air for the missile till such time Terminal Homing takes over it get completely independent unlike SARH guidance hence they can track/guide 36 missile  , Also they mentioned a kill probability of 0.999 for BUK-M3 system ,The Track/Guide and Kill probability is a clear indication BUK-M3 has some form of terminal guidance.

    Hence they claim that VLS Shtil-1 and BUK-M3 uses identical missile is as good as stating Mig-29 and Mig-23 are identical aircraft.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Buk SAM system General Thread

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue May 23, 2017 2:50 pm