Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

A small correction: Stirling engines are steam powered so they are not noisy at all.

Problem with most of AIP is that they are a third propulsion system added to the other two already present in a conventional submarine i.e. battery and diesel.
Obviously there is more than a way to skin a cat: some other AIP system like old Walter and Mesma powerpacks could be used instead of conventional diesels.
They were in the end discarded because the fuel cells were in the end more efficient and ABOVE ALL safer.
New high capacity batteries could revert the trend and Spain has so revamped Mesma tech.

Yeah Russia was working on AIP tech I think involving diesel and oxygen? Could be wrong. Thry have not utilized it. I agree that using more advanced battery packs could solve the problem and I think Russia has actually started developing these kinds of cells, not sure though.

But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.

But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.

Being quiet and a technology with a lot of applications in a lot of areas it is probably seen as very useful and desirable, but as you point out they have nukes which is the ultimate AIP, if a bit expensive and a little noisy in comparison to an all electric drive system.

When the Russian AIP is fully operational the size of the diesels can be dramatically reduced to emergency energy supply so it wont be exactly the same as having three propulsion systems.

The idea with the Russian AIP is that the hydrogen is extracted directly from hydrocarbons but oxygen is also needed for the process where hydrogen is fed from one side of the system which oxidises with oxygen to form heat and electricity and the byproduct is water plus solid carbon.

In comparison the same fuel and oxygen going through the diesel engines also produces heat and water but it also produces carbon monoxide which is highly toxic and bad for the environment. In comparison solid carbon can be dumped safely with no risk to the planet or animals, though you could also store it and use the carbon to make useful products too.

The advantage of the Russian system is that all the infrastructure for supplying ships with diesel fuel is already present in almost every port on the planet and liquid oxygen can be produced at the pier with an electricity supply plus water.

For something more exotic like an airship you could use diesel enigines as the backup electricity supply, solar panels... taking advantage of its enormous surface area, so you would need batteries to store solar power as it is collected. The propulsion itself could be electric motors with propellers in propulsion pods for manouverability. The structure could be super light and super strong and super fire resistent carbon fibres and composites and the ballast could be water that the fuel cell could convert to lifting hydrogen when lift was needed, or water ballast together with heat when that was required meaning venting would not be needed as much which makes operation cheaper because it is more of a closed cycle and more efficient.

Sadly the sight of the Hindenberg burning has coloured peoples view of airships as being dangerous... they are when you make them out of the stuff we make smokeless gunpowder out of... the skin of the hindenberg was combustible with an inside structure that consisted of bags filled with flammable hydrogen with pockets of air in between... the worst possible mix of fuel and oxygen, wrapped in a gunpowder skin. Replace the gunpowder skin with carbon fibre and nomex and composites that don't burn, and fill the gaps between the hydrogen bags with nitrogen and you could put a dozen burning road flares inside the thing and nothing would happen except some scorch marks. Hydrogen needs oxygen to burn. When it does burn it burns with an invisible flame.

There are a huge number of reasons to continue to develop the Russian hydrogen fuel cell technology, but so that it can be fitted to a sub is probably not one of them.

Improved fuel cell technology and high speed charging technology probably make fuel cell and other air independent power supplies redundant... except nukes of course...

A small 1 metre by 1 metre by 4 or 5 metre long nuclear battery like those used for their new laser systems (truck or aircraft mounted) could be something, but they were also toying with sea bed nuclear power stations where Russia subs could moor to these underwater NPP presumably to recharge mid mission for perhaps half an hour to an hour and then continue on fully charged without making a lot of noise and not needing diesels or AIPs making their subs much much cheaper... you could have active defences around your charging stations like torpedo nets and even mines and other protections to prevent access by enemy subs or to prevent the sites being easily attacked.

Problem with AIP is you need an oxydizer. So even if you use ammonia to store the hydrogen, you need to get oxygen. You can use Hydrogen Peroxide I suppose. you have sizable tanks of Hydrogen Peroxide and Ammonia on the sub. I guess you could use a outerhull+bladder to store them safely. One enticement of Lithium ion is it can be retrofitted into existing hulls and massively increase the capability of older subs.

TMA1 wrote:
Yeah Russia was working on AIP tech I think involving diesel and oxygen? Could be wrong. Thry have not utilized it. I agree that using more advanced battery packs could solve the problem and I think Russia has actually started developing these kinds of cells, not sure though.

But since Russia has a vast nuclear fleet and the diesel subs stay closer to shore and I'm guessing AIP tech was not seen as necessary.

The way I see it, the 677 submarines will be placed in the Northern and Pacific fleet precisely to help or escort the SSBNs that have to leave from the bases in the open sea and that is where the enemy can try to attack them.

It seems to me a good submarine and of a very reasonable size
Although they have taken more than a decade in the tests of the first of the series, it seems that they have managed to progress

By comparison, look at what happened with the Spanish S-80 submarines, which were announced in 1998 to enter in 2003-2005, supposedly they were going to be "almost-SSN's" and they have been delayed and failed for 20 years, it had to be extended the hull at 81 meters and the first example does not even have the AIP fuel cells until first repairs stop in ten years

Very recent photo of Kronshtadt and Veliky Luky at Admirality shipyard.

While VL is being fitted out, Kronshtadt is having some repairs or refit. I guess that is what is delaying its induction into service.

I do not know why the Russian Navy pissed on these boats so much. It can do the same missions as the Black Hole with half the crew.
Sure it would be nice if it had the enhanced propulsion in it, but the advanced combat systems on it should be top notch.

The monohull construction likely results in inferior characteristics and problems when operating in the arctic.

Is it true ? It served mainly as a testbed. Maybe they should continue to use it as such.

Good decision.

For one thing, it was a bit of a dud operationally. So it can only be useful going forward as a test-bed.

For another, it was built in a period where no other subs were really being produced. Well perhaps the Improved Kilo vessels built for China around that time might share something in common with the St. Petersburg. But no vessels in Russian service.

Which means it's going to be using a lot of parts and components that are out of production, and of which there aren't many spares of as they weren't used to build anything else

That poses a problem for both maintenance and modernization. You can probably modernize it with modern components, but as a one-off upgrade it will be expensive. Why not just scrap it and re-use whatever you can to make a sub of the newest class instead? You will end up with a more capable vessel and a more standardized one.

True about maintenance

And it does free up a pretty big name

I have looked on the Tass news thread and there is nothing about this... I rather doubt this is true.

The first sub was ambitious and did not meet expectations, which were set rather high and anticipated a functioning AIP system to improve performance levels.

I would say the modifications to create the new Lada-M class subs could be applied to the first ship and result in a decent vessel a generation ahead of the Kilo class subs they are still building, if not quite as good as the other boats in the class upgraded to M level.

Using parts in the M model in this vessel actually increase demands for the components and parts operationally which should help buying in bulk and reduce costs across the fleets that will use them.

Being used for initial testing should not ruin the vessel, and it will be rather better than most foreign types for quite some time to come.

There is a western saying... don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Which basically means don't just have a hissy fit when something is dirty... throw the dirty water down the drain but don't get rid of the valuable item that dirtied it.

Whether they use it operationally, or just keep it for testing new technologies, upgrading its parts makes more sense because testing new weapons on obsolete gear no longer used does not give a good indication how service vessels using different hardware and software might fare using it in combat or during exercise.

Subs kept for testing are probably more valuable than those ships and subs that enter service, because it means you can test continually without taking ships and subs and crews out of service to test things.

That post said it would be scrapped.

But as I said there is nothing about that on English language Tass.

I know Russians have developed energy packs using hot radioactive elements. Even some far off stations in Siberia had the radioisotope generators. I know work was done by Russia and here in America using radioisotopes in concert with sterling devices to make a thermal powered engine.

Could this be an easier and more effective form of AIP? The temperature differential between the radioisotope package and seawater could certainly provide power. If it would be enough for small submarines to maintain depth and low speed it could beat other much more complex AIP systems.

From this:

22 марта 2022, 21:32,
обновлено 22 марта 2022, 21:43
В ОСК сообщили о закладке двух больших подлодок проекта "Лада" в этом году
Решение о заключении госконтракта на строительство новой серии судов принимает Минобороны России

МОСКВА, 22 марта. /ТАСС/. Две большие многоцелевые дизель-электрические подводные лодки проекта 677 серии "Лада" будут заложены на судостроительном предприятии "Адмиралтейские верфи" (входит в Объединенную судостроительную корпорацию, ОСК) в текущем году. Об этом ТАСС сообщили в ОСК.

"Закладка двух больших подводных лодок проекта "Лада" состоится в нынешнем году", - сказали в холдинге.

В ОСК отметили, что решение о заключении государственного контракта на строительство новой серии лодок этого проекта принимает Минобороны России.

Головная лодка серии "Лада" Б-585 "Санкт-Петербург" в сентябре 2021 года вошла в боевой состав Северного флота. Подлодка Б-586 "Кронштадт" и третья по счету субмарина серии Б-587 "Великие Луки" готовятся к передаче флоту в 2022 году.
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Подводные лодки проекта 677 относятся к четвертому поколению ДЭПЛ и на сегодняшний день признаны самыми современными и перспективными отечественными неатомными подводными кораблями как с точки зрения боевой эффективности, так и по другим тактико-техническим характеристикам. "Адмиралтейские верфи" являются единственным заводом - строителем подлодок данного класса.

Which translates to this:

22 March 2022, 21:32,
updated 22 March 2022, 21:43
USC announced the laying of two large submarines of the Lada project this year
The decision to conclude a state contract for the construction of a new series of vessels is made by the Russian Defense Ministry

MOSCOW, March 22. /tass/. Two large multipurpose diesel-electric submarines of Project 677 of the Lada series will be laid down at the Admiralty Shipyards shipbuilding enterprise (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC) this year. This was reported to TASS in USC.

"The laying of two large submarines of the Lada project will take place this year," the holding said.

The USC noted that the decision to conclude a state contract for the construction of a new series of boats of this project is made by the Russian Defense Ministry.

The lead boat of the Lada B-585 Saint Petersburg series joined the Northern Fleet in September 2021. The B-586 Kronstadt submarine and the third B-587 Velikiye Luki series submarine are being prepared for transfer to the fleet in 2022.
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The submarines of Project 677 belong to the fourth generation of the DPL and are currently recognized as the most modern and promising domestic non-nuclear submarines both in terms of combat effectiveness and other tactical and technical characteristics. Admiralty Shipyards is the only factory - builder of submarines of this class.

Two submarines were being laid down in 2022, and the lead boat was part of the Northern Fleet and joined in September 2021. They laid down three to start with and the first was completed but the second two were put on hold when the performance of the first was not what they expected, so after work on the first ironed out all the bugs and problems and changes were made those changes were applied to the two other boats on the slips so they were completed using the improvements applied to the first boat. Those two other boats were to join the navy in 2022.

So there are five subs in total so far, two have only recently been laid down and the first entered service in September 2021 and the two others will be put into service soon if not already.

No mention of the first B-585 being withdrawn from service.

June 13, 2022, 02:13
day of Russia
Two Lada submarines were laid down in St. Petersburg on Russia Day
The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Nikolai Evmenov took part in the laying ceremony

ST. PETERSBURG, June 12. /tass/. Two diesel-electric submarines of the Lada project 677 were laid on the Day of Russia at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg. This was reported on Sunday in the press service of the company.

"The Vologda and Yaroslavl submarines have become the fourth and fifth ships in the Project 677 series under construction at Admiralty Shipyards JSC for the Russian Navy," the report says.

It is noted that the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Nikolai Evmenov took part in the laying ceremony. By his order, the submarines were laid down simultaneously with four more ships at other shipbuilding enterprises of the country. The construction of the mine defense ship project 12700 "Polar" was launched at the Sredne-Nevsky Plant in St. Petersburg, the corvette project 20385 "Reasonable" was laid at the Amur Shipyard, and the research ships of project 03182p "Leonid Bekrenev" and "Boris Bobkov" were laid at the Zelenodolsk plant named after A.M. Gorky.

According to Evmenov, the Russian navy has "a powerful scientific and design potential, centuries-old experience in the construction and operation of ships by highly qualified personnel." According to the admiral, by the end of 2022, the Navy will receive 46 warships and support vessels.

The press service of JSC Admiralty Shipyards noted that the construction of a series of submarines 677 of the Lada project is being carried out according to an adjusted project, based on the results of the pilot operation of the lead ship St. Petersburg, which serves in the Baltic Fleet. The ships have upgraded the control system of the ship's technical means, the electric propulsion system, and the navigation complex. By the end of 2022, the second ship of the Kronstadt series, which was launched in 2018, will be transferred to the Northern Fleet. In 2015, the company laid down the third ship of the series - Velikiye Luki. On June 12, after the docking of the solid hull, completion work continues on it. The company started cutting metal for Vologda and Yaroslavl, the fourth and fifth boats of the project, in February of this year.

The submarines of Project 677 belong to the fourth generation of non-nuclear submarines and are recognized as the most modern and promising domestic ships of this class, both in terms of combat effectiveness and other tactical and technical characteristics. Currently, the corresponding ships are being built only at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg.

This article says the first boat is operating in the Baltic Fleet, which I would think it would be ideal for.

It seems to say one of the two boats is going into service at the end of 2022, while the other is still being completed and has not yet been launched...

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14892249

https://tass.ru/obschestvo/14142549

I know Russians have developed energy packs using hot radioactive elements.

Thermoelectric power plants have been used in satellites, but I think they would like to develop something that uses hydrogen... especially in the form of hydrocarbons as that would be a useful technology.

People wont be allowed access to nuclear batteries any time soon even if they were amazing and safe, but something that used petrol or diesel or kerosene and created a solid block of carbon that you could then sell or recycle to make carbon nanotubes or carbonfibre... ie a relatively expensive commodity... then that is a rather more useful goal and investment of money.

Replacing internal combustion engines with fuel cells that used hydrocarbons but did not create carbon based gas emissions is the real goal because the creation and distribution of fuel already exists and is extensive, an being able to use that to distribute hydrogen without enormous pressure containers or super cold gas storage would be really handy.

Essentially all the advantages of fossil fuels but without the pollution that is bad for the climate.

Nuclear radioisotope thermal generators are mainly used for low power applications. Think tens of watts. They are too expensive to use in something like a conventional submarine which requires a power source in the tens of megawatts.

What would be more likely to be used would be a conventional compact nuclear reactor.

A Kilo class sub has two 1 megawatt diesel generators for charging batteries and running the electric motor that propels the sub. The electric motor is a 5 megawatt motor that propels the sub but you would also need electronics running on the sub too for heating and lighting and running computers and sonar and radar and other sensors and equipment as well as carbon dioxide scrubbers and fans and water pumps etc etc...

The Krystal module used in Soviet satellites could probably manage 2 megawatts to charge the batteries and run things on the sub... the new nuclear power plant for the ground based laser system the Russian use might be interesting as well.

They had a system they were talking about for space exploration that generated electricity for about 13 years that could be used in a base, where the operation of the reactor generated heat to heat the manned parts of the base as a byproduct of generating electricity so the electricity could be used for other things instead.

The Russians have shown sea bed installations with nuclear power stations where presumably an SSK that has no AIP and is just all batteries can settle on the sea bed and connect to the NPP and charge up remaining underwater and silent all the time without needing to surface or carry liquid oxygen for an AIP fuel cell.

Sankt Peterburg....

GarryB wrote:
No mention of the first B-585 being withdrawn from service.

This article says the first boat is operating in the Baltic Fleet, which I would think it would be ideal for.

B-585  is not enough for full operation with the fleet because needs a modernization for Kalibrs, and probably will be decomissioned or at least will be used as test ship for the shipyard
remanufacturing the sub to fit the new Kaliber system is probably as expensive as a new ship, and the B-585 was launched 19 years ago

https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/neatomnuyu_podlodku_sankt-peterburg_ozhidaet_remont.html 27.03.2023
Источник: https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/neatomnuyu_podlodku_sankt-peterburg_ozhidaet_remont.html
The lead non-nuclear submarine of project 677 "St. Petersburg" of the Northern Fleet is in Kronstadt "awaiting repairs".
The Saint Petersburg submarine, after trial operation in September 2021, became part of the Northern Fleet

of course the names of the submarines like "Kronstadt" suggest more that they could be for the Baltic, although the name of Petrozavodsk for a 636.3 Varshavyanka had been published, however this name should be for 6th Lada, perhaps plans have been changed after testing the first ship B-585 in the Barents Sea and the 636.3 will be for North Feet instead 677.
I think that at this moment reinforcing the Baltic is a higher priority, although of course submarines are also needed in the North to cover the SSBNs

about B-586 is not in service yet, probably will be handed over in 2023 and B-587 in 2024 and the next in 2025, 2026 etc...

I read somewhere the Lada submarines with modernized Kaliber as pr. 677M and the first ship as pr. 677D ("demonstrator")

No.

B-585 St. Petersburg has launched a Kalibr on trials when it was in the Northern Fleet.

There must be other reasons why it is planned to remove it from service. Too many systems were new on that submarine. Lots of teething issues had to be resolved. It ended up being a prototype or test bed. I guess it is no longer needed.

In the meanwhile, a very recent photo of B586 Kronshtadt being degaussed.

I suspect the Ladas will be used in a range of roles including as an SSN in shallow waters close to Russia... would it really be the end of the world if the first boat of the series didn't have land attack Calibres?

There were a few planned versions of UKSK, but all were meant to be standardised... the U is supposed to mean Universal isn't it?

So eventually when you get it right then all older models will be replaced with the newer model which presumably has all the plumbing and wiring for all the missiles and items it can carry.

There must be other reasons why it is planned to remove it from service. Too many systems were new on that submarine. Lots of teething issues had to be resolved. It ended up being a prototype or test bed. I guess it is no longer needed.

But once you sort out its problems and get the different systems working together you then take that as a model for fitting them to new vessels... it would make no sense to then scrap it... because you will always get new stuff that also needs to be integrated... so why not use the test platform?

And it is not just sensors and systems, it is also weapons that need to be tested...

If modernisation of a sub to a new version of UKSK costs more than a new ship then I would say stop using British labour to make your subs.

Thaddeus von Bellingshausen noted that in the first manual for the Russian fleet... don't pay in the UK by the hour or they will go on a go slow and make you really pay...

This sub is simply old.
Something that was build almost 20 years ago uses components that are 30 years old.
And was built in harsh times for the Russian naval industry, which makes me wonder how many substitutes are there on board to make it work.
I guess that a planned repair cycle on that thing would be a challenge already, lacking a 30 y/o component base.
Becoming a test platform for a shipyard makes sense.

But this was the pilot sub of the new class of subs, whose performance parameters were aimed rather high and this model came up short... but the point is that this sub was used as the test subject to upgrade and improve the parts to get them all working and all working together, which we have to assume they achieved because they are laying down the new subs for serial production.

If that is the case then the current model sub should have the new parts and systems they are going to put into the serial subs otherwise they would only complete one of the two already laid down to finish testing with new parts that can't be fitted to the original sub.

Even if it is not as good as the two new Lada subs laid down and being completed now it will still be a step up from the previous generation improved Kilo class SSKs.

Subs are different from aircraft... you invest a huge amount into each sub so each sub is valuable unless it doesn't work.

Having a sub just for testing new stuff and new ideas or new tactics or new weapons or sensors etc etc would be useful too I guess... if the new subs are just so much better.

GarryB wrote:But this was the pilot sub of the new class of subs, whose performance parameters were aimed rather high and this model came up short... but the point is that this sub was used as the test subject to upgrade and improve the parts to get them all working and all working together, which we have to assume they achieved because they are laying down the new subs for serial production.

If that is the case then the current model sub should have the new parts and systems they are going to put into the serial subs otherwise they would only complete one of the two already laid down to finish testing with new parts that can't be fitted to the original sub.

Even if it is not as good as the two new Lada subs laid down and being completed now it will still be a step up from the previous generation improved Kilo class SSKs.

Subs are different from aircraft... you invest a huge amount into each sub so each sub is valuable unless it doesn't work.

Having a sub just for testing new stuff and new ideas or new tactics or new weapons or sensors etc etc would be useful too I guess... if the new subs are just so much better.

The St.Petersburg could be used as a school ship, repairing it and bringing it to the level of the others seems to me a useless waste of money.


Here, B-586 and B-587 are called pr.677M while St. Petersburg only pr.677

The St.Petersburg could be used as a school ship, repairing it and bringing it to the level of the others seems to me a useless waste of money.

They laid one boat down to start with but then laid two more down later on... when they got the first into the water it didn't make the grade so they froze the other two subs so they could work on the first boat and go over everything and get everything working properly so the changes MADE to the first boat could be applied to the second and third to make them work as needed.

That would suggest to me that the first boat was working, their might have been some fundamental changes needed but I doubt they would be drastic changes that completely redesigned the subs because they didn't scrap the next two that were already laid down and start again... they finished them based on testing and experience with the first boat.

So you think the second and third had totally different parts and equipment than the first boat?

If that is the case then wouldn't the second and third subs be completely different and require testing and operations to make sure it works as they expect, meaning the next subs based on this design would need to wait till these two new subs get tested in the water to avoid what happened with the first sub?

It would be like saying the Su-35 fitted with a radar based on the system in the Su-57 and Su-57 engines and wing mounted radar and other equipment for testing and evaluation and when the Su-57 enters service that Su-35 should be scrapped...

Well obviously that is a bad analogy because in this case the Su-35 is not a one off and any improvements fitting it with new equipment and engines and systems from the Su-57 would make the whole fleet of Su-35s even better even if it will never be as stealthy with external weapons only... but subs are way more expensive than aircraft, and also they don't have too many subs right now as a major problem, so why give up a sub you just likely spent good money working out the kinks and problems with, even if it just gets used for training or light duties or testing new experimental systems and weapons.

Making it use the same systems and equipment as other subs in the class will use will make it easier to train to use and support.