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ArrowThe question is whether the new Lady will already have an AIP system? What about the Kalina project?
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Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
Arrow- Posts : 2727
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GarryB- Posts : 39024
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Some simply have no patience and demand things now or destroy it and start again... obviously leads to a lot of waste and inferior results.
If it is easy to achieve then is it worth trying in the first place?
The new Ladas will likely have Lithium Ion batteries and therefore wont need AIP.
To remain submerged for two weeks or more you need to operate cooking equipment and propulsion and freezing units... internal lighting... carbon dioxide scrubbers and air circulation and heating and cooling systems... simply replacing old conventional bulbs with LED lights probably saved a few hours of extra operations on batteries, but all the computers and sonar and communications equipment also need to run... but guess what... having a sub that is half the weight of western equivalent long range subs and with half the crew size saves power too so massively reduced power requirements along with better batteries can make AIP redundant for the Russian Navy... if they need a long range sub to run submerged for 4 months... they already have Yasens and other subs for that.
If it is easy to achieve then is it worth trying in the first place?
The new Ladas will likely have Lithium Ion batteries and therefore wont need AIP.
To remain submerged for two weeks or more you need to operate cooking equipment and propulsion and freezing units... internal lighting... carbon dioxide scrubbers and air circulation and heating and cooling systems... simply replacing old conventional bulbs with LED lights probably saved a few hours of extra operations on batteries, but all the computers and sonar and communications equipment also need to run... but guess what... having a sub that is half the weight of western equivalent long range subs and with half the crew size saves power too so massively reduced power requirements along with better batteries can make AIP redundant for the Russian Navy... if they need a long range sub to run submerged for 4 months... they already have Yasens and other subs for that.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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Japanese are replacing AIP on their next two Soruyu class subs with diesel electric plant and lithium batteries
They see this as superior approach which gives them much greater endurance
Russia should be doing same with Ladas
GarryB- Posts : 39024
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The key is getting the Lithium Ion batteries right so they don't become a problem.
They are much lighter than Lead Acid batteries, and should be more compact, but the chemicals are obviously volatile... that is how they work of course.
They are much lighter than Lead Acid batteries, and should be more compact, but the chemicals are obviously volatile... that is how they work of course.
George1- Posts : 18323
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Northen fleet to recieve at least 4 Ladas
https://en.topwar.ru/182023-po-programme-osnaschenija-napl-severnyj-flot-poluchit-dizelnye-podlodki.html
According to the source, the problem with providing forces fleet diesel-electric submarines will be resolved by 2027. Until this date, the fleet will receive at least four submarines as part of the program to equip the combat personnel with a non-nuclear submarine component.
At the same time, the source emphasized that unlike the Pacific Fleet, which will receive diesel-electric submarines of the 636.3 Varshavyanka type, the Northern Fleet will receive submarines of the 677 Lada type. We are talking about submarines under construction at the "Admiralty shipyards".
At present, two submarines of the Lada project are under construction in St. Petersburg - Kronstadt and Velikiye Luki. The submarines are the first and second serial ones after the lead submarine "St. Petersburg". "Kronstadt" is being completed afloat, "Velikie Luki" will be launched in 2022. The contract for the construction of the third and fourth submarines of the project has been signed, but the laying is not planned yet. The series is long-term construction due to the introduction of improvements to the project, as well as the development of VNEU.
https://en.topwar.ru/182023-po-programme-osnaschenija-napl-severnyj-flot-poluchit-dizelnye-podlodki.html
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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Can someone help me out here with the timeline because this is confusing?
Priject 677 Lada-class submarine St. Petersburg has completed trials
https://ria.ru/20210921/podlodka-1751106938.html
Priject 677 Lada-class submarine St. Petersburg has completed trials
https://ria.ru/20210921/podlodka-1751106938.html
hoom- Posts : 2352
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May help clear it up?
The lead submarine "St. Petersburg" was accepted into the Russian Navy, but since 2010 it has been in trial operation in the Northern Fleet. The head Lada - Saint Petersburg - has successfully completed a trial operation program. The corresponding final act has been approved by the Navy, ”Baranov said.
Источник: http://bastion-karpenko.ru/ ВТС «БАСТИОН» A.V.Karpenko
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Isos- Posts : 11302
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It's a parade submarine. Only used for wheb they celebrate something. Never deployed.
franco- Posts : 6710
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The lead submarine of project 677 "Lada" entered the combat strength of the Russian fleet
The lead submarine of Project 677 "St. Petersburg" became part of the Russian fleet as a full-fledged combat unit. The trial operation of the first "Lada", which lasted more than 10 years, has been completed.
https://topwar.ru/187356-golovnaja-submarina-proekta-677-lada-voshla-v-boevoj-sostav-rossijskogo-flota.html
NOTE: does this help. Apparently all issues have been resolved and it is now fully operational.
The lead submarine of Project 677 "St. Petersburg" became part of the Russian fleet as a full-fledged combat unit. The trial operation of the first "Lada", which lasted more than 10 years, has been completed.
https://topwar.ru/187356-golovnaja-submarina-proekta-677-lada-voshla-v-boevoj-sostav-rossijskogo-flota.html
NOTE: does this help. Apparently all issues have been resolved and it is now fully operational.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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franco wrote:...
NOTE: does this help. Apparently all issues have been resolved and it is now fully operational.
It does, thanks
So all this time sub was undergoing tests and is only now officially on combat duty
I guess it also explains why Kilos were being built for so long, Ladas didn't complete development yet
With this I assume that they can start ordering more Ladas from now on?
franco- Posts : 6710
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PapaDragon wrote:franco wrote:...
NOTE: does this help. Apparently all issues have been resolved and it is now fully operational.
It does, thanks
So all this time sub was undergoing tests and is only now officially on combat duty
I guess it also explains why Kilos were being built for so long, Ladas didn't complete development yet
With this I assume that they can start ordering more Ladas from now on?
From last year, the other 2 that are started will be completed and if memory serves me correctly without researching, another 3 will be or have been ordered.
Arrow- Posts : 2727
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Still without AIP 
PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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Arrow wrote:Still without AIP
It's superior to Kilos and Kilos are superior to everything else non-nuclear
First ones weren't getting AIP anyway
Plus AIP is no longer the cool shit, Japan is ditching it in favour of diesel with lithium batteries
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Hole- Posts : 10751
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The second unit, Kronstadt, was already on show at this years Fleet Day.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13278
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According to wiki there one in service now (St. Pete), two under construction (Kronshtadt and Great Onions) and three more on order all slated for Northern Fleet
They should help keep the Barents Sea submarine bastion locked down nice and tight
Hopefully more will be ordered now with testing fully completed
Isos- Posts : 11302
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I wonder why they buy them. That's an old design. They can create a better sub with even VLS.
GarryB- Posts : 39024
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They laid down three subs at once but after the first sub hit the water and started testing they found a lot of things didn't work as they expected so they halted production of the other two already laid down and froze the design while they worked through getting the first one right.
While the design was frozen they went back to producing improved Kilos which are good subs and quite popular.
The Lada was very ambitious... to start with they were going for AIP based on a new system they developed for themselves, but over time they then said they would not bother with AIP for the first Lada sub and that the second two might get it.
The Lada has new very powerful Sonar arrays and electronics normally put on nuclear powered submarines... it is lighter than an Improved Kilo class SSK by five or six hundred tons and it has better fire power than the Improved Kilo but with half the crew size.
It is a serious improvement in performance.
The two laid down Ladas were to be completed when the first Lada had its bugs sorted out, but the talk was that they would enter service without AIP too, so it would be boat number four that had AIP installed...
But more recently the Japanese have replaced their AIP system with more Li Ion batteries because the AIP system does not provide enough power to run underwater at a decent speed all the time and charge the batteries too, so the AIP might allow the sub to remain underwater for 3-4 weeks but for 1 to 2 weeks it is running at minimum power at low speed while charging the batteries... once the batteries are fully charged the AIP together with the fully charged batteries means it can run at normal speeds and be an SSK. The newest sub replaces the AIP with more batteries so it runs on batteries for 3-4 weeks and then snorkels and runs diesel engines to charge the batteries in a few hours and then it is ready to operate for another 3-4 weeks, though normally it will only operate for a month (4 weeks) because of food supplies on board.
The Russians noted this fundamental problem with AIPs and will likely go for more batteries on the newer Lada subs...
While the design was frozen they went back to producing improved Kilos which are good subs and quite popular.
The Lada was very ambitious... to start with they were going for AIP based on a new system they developed for themselves, but over time they then said they would not bother with AIP for the first Lada sub and that the second two might get it.
The Lada has new very powerful Sonar arrays and electronics normally put on nuclear powered submarines... it is lighter than an Improved Kilo class SSK by five or six hundred tons and it has better fire power than the Improved Kilo but with half the crew size.
It is a serious improvement in performance.
The two laid down Ladas were to be completed when the first Lada had its bugs sorted out, but the talk was that they would enter service without AIP too, so it would be boat number four that had AIP installed...
But more recently the Japanese have replaced their AIP system with more Li Ion batteries because the AIP system does not provide enough power to run underwater at a decent speed all the time and charge the batteries too, so the AIP might allow the sub to remain underwater for 3-4 weeks but for 1 to 2 weeks it is running at minimum power at low speed while charging the batteries... once the batteries are fully charged the AIP together with the fully charged batteries means it can run at normal speeds and be an SSK. The newest sub replaces the AIP with more batteries so it runs on batteries for 3-4 weeks and then snorkels and runs diesel engines to charge the batteries in a few hours and then it is ready to operate for another 3-4 weeks, though normally it will only operate for a month (4 weeks) because of food supplies on board.
The Russians noted this fundamental problem with AIPs and will likely go for more batteries on the newer Lada subs...
RTN- Posts : 742
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Probably the SoKos as well. But Lada will need AIP as long as Russia does not perfect lithium battery tech for subs.PapaDragon wrote:
Plus AIP is no longer the cool shit, Japan is ditching it in favour of diesel with lithium batteries
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3700
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- Post n°544
Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:33 am
RTN wrote:Probably the SoKos as well. But Lada will need AIP as long as Russia does not perfect lithium battery tech for subs.PapaDragon wrote:
Plus AIP is no longer the cool shit, Japan is ditching it in favour of diesel with lithium batteries
Hm? Lada won't have that, simply because the design is finalized and they are building them now it would cost money and lots of time to go back and redesign the class for it.
The class after Lada should have lithium batteries. I assume anyway, I don't know how far along the Russians are with that tech, its still very very brand new stuff in this type of application
But if Japan can do it, Russia can also.
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RTN- Posts : 742
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The class after Lada? Meaning the Russians are planning more conventional diesel powered subs? Funny, coz earlier today, the usual suspects of this forum accused the U.S of not being sensible and practical.SeigSoloyvov wrote:The class after Lada should have lithium batteries. I assume anyway, I don't know how far along the Russians are with that tech, its still very very brand new stuff in this type of application
Conventional/ Diesel powered subs are on their way out. That role will be taken care of by extra large unmanned underwater vehicles. The U.S Navy is already implementing this idea. I would suspect China will follow suit.
SeigSoloyvov- Posts : 3700
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- Post n°546
Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
SeigSoloyvov Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:01 am
Yes, they are, the Kalina Class. Diesel subs are good for operations close to home waters, not blue water. In that aspect, they are superior to nuke subs and cheaper for the role. As they are quieter than Nuclear Submarines. Well, Russian fanboys, this is no different if you were on a US forum, expect they'd have a pro US leaning. That and they are armchair experts with no real-world knowledge of the topics they speak or time serving it. They just read web articles from sources they trust and that's it. So I really wouldn't pay to much attention to them because the reality is fanboys on both side US and Russia don't know shit.
Truly unmanned vehicles will not become a thing for decades if not past our lifetimes, at best some of the features will be automated but its not possible to build such a thing atm. On a large scale like that, We are looking into it but the tech isn't there. Plus having something that large sailing around on it's own is a problem, what if the signal gets hacked and a hostile power drives it to their base? or something in it fails. the large underwater craft will always have people on in some capacity.
Chinese tech isn't that good, they build copies and rip-offs from technical data they steal, the thing is they can build lots of it and fast which you can argue is the better approach, quantity will always defeat quality.
Conventional subs are here to stay for this and the next generation, after that who knows.
Truly unmanned vehicles will not become a thing for decades if not past our lifetimes, at best some of the features will be automated but its not possible to build such a thing atm. On a large scale like that, We are looking into it but the tech isn't there. Plus having something that large sailing around on it's own is a problem, what if the signal gets hacked and a hostile power drives it to their base? or something in it fails. the large underwater craft will always have people on in some capacity.
Chinese tech isn't that good, they build copies and rip-offs from technical data they steal, the thing is they can build lots of it and fast which you can argue is the better approach, quantity will always defeat quality.
Conventional subs are here to stay for this and the next generation, after that who knows.
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GarryB- Posts : 39024
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Yeah, Russia will get caught with its pants down because it has spent nothing on underwater unmanned vehicles, but then experts on the subject like SS will tell you all about how they have so seriously neglected so many things.
The simple facts are that the US is an aggressor that attacks and contains to collect and control resources around the world and therefore has no use for conventional subs which are defensive in nature.
Russia, on the other hand, has resources it needs to defend from the predatory west, and so for them the idea of a smaller cheaper sub that is quieter than any nuke powered sub and easier and quicker to make so you can have a larger more affordable fleet than you could possibly have if you limited yourself to only nuke propelled subs.
The Russians have several ships dedicated to carrying minisubs, from the old India class through to Delta IIIs and newer ships now too, which include a variety of unmanned minisubs and vessels and also weapons.
The US are not sensible or practical... you just spent 2 trillion dollars and 20 years shifting the debris and rubble around Afghanistan and when you are leaving the biggest thing your defence secretary is worried about is LGBTQ whatever the **** else letters you want to add to be super inclusive....
The real irony is that while US forces were there they were providing pep pills to paedophile warlords but now they care about peoples rights.
That country is full of total bastards but for some reason many seem to think it is only the taliban that are evil, yet they are the ones that put an end to the poppy fields and the child buggering... or is that part of the plan.... are child molesters just fine upstanding LGBTQ people who are just misunderstood?
The simple facts are that the US is an aggressor that attacks and contains to collect and control resources around the world and therefore has no use for conventional subs which are defensive in nature.
Russia, on the other hand, has resources it needs to defend from the predatory west, and so for them the idea of a smaller cheaper sub that is quieter than any nuke powered sub and easier and quicker to make so you can have a larger more affordable fleet than you could possibly have if you limited yourself to only nuke propelled subs.
The Russians have several ships dedicated to carrying minisubs, from the old India class through to Delta IIIs and newer ships now too, which include a variety of unmanned minisubs and vessels and also weapons.
The US are not sensible or practical... you just spent 2 trillion dollars and 20 years shifting the debris and rubble around Afghanistan and when you are leaving the biggest thing your defence secretary is worried about is LGBTQ whatever the **** else letters you want to add to be super inclusive....
The real irony is that while US forces were there they were providing pep pills to paedophile warlords but now they care about peoples rights.
That country is full of total bastards but for some reason many seem to think it is only the taliban that are evil, yet they are the ones that put an end to the poppy fields and the child buggering... or is that part of the plan.... are child molesters just fine upstanding LGBTQ people who are just misunderstood?
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GarryB- Posts : 39024
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The Lada class is essentially what the Aussies wanted from the French... a conventional class sub but with the sonar and equipment and weapons of an SSN.
The resulting SSK will be about 500 tons lighter than an improved Kilo class and with improved systems and equipment and similar weapons, but with a smaller crew.
In terms of weight the Lada class is about 1,700 tons, while 636 improved Kilo is 2,300 tons, the Lada has all new sonar and systems that are a generation newer, the Lada sub is 2 knots faster underwater, similar depths and ranges and durations, but the Lada sub has 35 crew and the Improved Kilo 52.
Kalina is still just a proposed design that does not yet exist in metal because a lot of the technologies it will need to exist need to be perfected on the Lada first.
They will likely switch to domestic production of the Lada class and make a dozen if they are lucky before the Kalina could even be considered for production.
The resulting SSK will be about 500 tons lighter than an improved Kilo class and with improved systems and equipment and similar weapons, but with a smaller crew.
In terms of weight the Lada class is about 1,700 tons, while 636 improved Kilo is 2,300 tons, the Lada has all new sonar and systems that are a generation newer, the Lada sub is 2 knots faster underwater, similar depths and ranges and durations, but the Lada sub has 35 crew and the Improved Kilo 52.
Kalina is still just a proposed design that does not yet exist in metal because a lot of the technologies it will need to exist need to be perfected on the Lada first.
They will likely switch to domestic production of the Lada class and make a dozen if they are lucky before the Kalina could even be considered for production.
RTN- Posts : 742
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Just that an export version of the Lada will have degraded sonar, other equipment and weapons.GarryB wrote:The Lada class is essentially what the Aussies wanted from the French... a conventional class sub but with the sonar and equipment and weapons of an SSN.
Mir- Posts : 3142
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Money can buy anything but realistically speaking the Australians would NEVER buy any military hardware from Russia or China - period.
Anybody who writes off modern tech SSK's would be a fool. Just because the US doesn't buy into it doesn't mean it's useless at all. Something like the Japanese Taigei class class submarines would be a very serious threat to any attacking naval force.
But with Australia buying nuclear submarines a whole new can of worms have been opened. Many countries will be looking at Russia for small nuclear attack submarines and the French will also be looking for new customers.
If countries like Iran, North Korea and even Venezuela suddenly start looking at nuclear powered submarines the US will throw a tantrum but together with the Brits they've let the genie out!
Just imagine how these guys would react if Iranian submariners posted pictures on the internet of the US 7th fleet in Pearl Harbour!
Anybody who writes off modern tech SSK's would be a fool. Just because the US doesn't buy into it doesn't mean it's useless at all. Something like the Japanese Taigei class class submarines would be a very serious threat to any attacking naval force.
But with Australia buying nuclear submarines a whole new can of worms have been opened. Many countries will be looking at Russia for small nuclear attack submarines and the French will also be looking for new customers.
If countries like Iran, North Korea and even Venezuela suddenly start looking at nuclear powered submarines the US will throw a tantrum but together with the Brits they've let the genie out!
Just imagine how these guys would react if Iranian submariners posted pictures on the internet of the US 7th fleet in Pearl Harbour!