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    Project 677: Lada class Submarine

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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor on Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:37 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Ok two off then as i dont count the first.

    They are keeping all three... whether you count them or not... Smile

    But why havent SSN or SSGN been striking Syria? Is the Med considered a SSK sea? From what i know they have no SSN in BSF so its a long way from Northen or Pacific fleet to get there.

    You answered your own question... why take an SSN or SSGN away from a strategic mission against the US and NATO when a corvette in the Caspian Sea can launch Calibrs?

    Having SSKs frees bigger heavier more capable subs for jobs that require more capabilities.

    The point is that the Lada class SSKs are much closer to SSN performance than previous SSKs so it becomes more useful...

    About Ladas, you cant really say its a better SSK then the Kilo just on techs specs, it has to prove it also and there has been som short classes of subs that were failures.

    But how do you define a failure... I mean during WWII the Soviet Air Force had Polikarpov I-16s and then got British Hurricane fighters... and then got Yak-3 fighters... the fact was they didn't know how bad the I-16s were until they used them against early model Bf-109s... the I-16 was state of the art in the 1930s when they first entered service but their performance was eclipsed by the time they got serious use... the Hurricane was better, but still not superior to the BF-109 models they were coming up against at the time they got them... it was only when they got Yak-3s when they actually had an aircraft that was superior to the late model Bf-109s and FW-190s they were coming up against... claiming the I-16s were bad is silly... making the number of MiG-3s or Yak-1s that they had of I-16s at the start of the war would have bankrupted the Soviet state and most were destroyed on the ground anyway, so the pilots survived to fight later in the war in better aircraft...

    I can say the Lada was a better SSK because it was designed to be so... just like the MiG-29 was a better interceptor fighter than the MiG-21 it replaced in service and the Su-27 was better than the MiG-23 it replaced...

    They were speaking of ordering another batch of 4 Ladas, but i dont think so really.
    Of course its a quick work to add a section of AIP hull on a SSK, sweden did it with the Näcken sub in 1988...

    AIP propulsion systems are generally modular and are designed to be able to be added on to existing subs as well as new ones... the point is that they have to actually be working first.

    If the Ladas were no better than Kilos why even bother talking about making any more, it would make more sense to crank out a few extra Kilos they have already had in mass production before and concentrate on a real replacement without wasting time with something that is no better than what they already have.

    As for SSN´s vs SSK´s, well not only top speed but range and endurance also. Trouble with SSK´s even if they are nearly as good as SSN´s is top speed and range, they can never accompany large task forces. So in every larger task force even in the med, they have to assigne some SSN to that role.

    The days of long range SSKs is over... such roles have been replaced by SSNs so it is not really an issue any more.


    Mediterranean is a closed sea, just as it should be for use of SSKs. When SSK is quiet it is really quiet indeed. SSN with her pumps and turbines can never be as quiet as SSK. Baltic fleet has no SSNs as any SSN there would be as a whale in a pool.

    There is little value strategically for Russia to have subs in the Med or the Baltic except a few cruise missiles launched from behind so to speak... would be as vulnerable to NATO as a US carrier group in the black sea would be vulnerable to Russian forces.


    i think it will be a temporary class to bridge over to more capable Kalina.

    Funny you have confidence in Kalina being superior but not Lada?

    You do know that some years ago the Kalina in this equation was Lada?

    If they have fucked up the Lada, why do you place such high hopes they will do any better with Kalina?

    Do you expect Kalina to be even smaller and lighter and with a crew of 12?

    The Russians are great experts in submarine business. If before 1917 and between the wars they have built some submarines which were considered complete failure, from 1945 on, their submarines were often bigger, better armed, with greater autonomy and diving depth, and faster than those of their counterparts. They were almost always up to specifications. If there are substantial problems with Ladas, and there are problems with main EM and with new sonars, they reversed to the excellent 636.3 advanced Kilos. They have time to develop Kalina as a better boat, and they are perfectly capable of doing that.
    runaway
    runaway

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    Post  runaway on Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:45 am



    Its probably the way they are going, revert to order new 636.3 instead of Ladas. In the meantime work out the kinks with AIP and new sonar so the Kalina will be a better boat and working free of all the problems that have plagued Ladas.

    As of now they have 6 new kilos for BSF, soon 6 for PF and soon 2 Ladas for BF, they have covered the critical parts of their need and its no rusch for Kalinas.
    When they have working AIP it will certainly be incorporated hull sections into the 636.3´s, to give them capabilities which are second to none.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:38 pm

    The AIP isn't that critical for them as those SSKs typically operate under the cover of land based aviation, the same as their SSGs that had to surface to launch their CMs. They probably would have sent SSNs/SSGNs to the Med. Sea, as they done in the Cold War & later, hadn't the 2 Kilos that hit the Syrian rebels been in transit to the BSF anyway.
    The subs with AIP would sell better, & suspect it's their primary motivation to develop it.
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:57 am

    They were almost always up to specifications. If there are substantial problems with Ladas, and there are problems with main EM and with new sonars, they reversed to the excellent 636.3 advanced Kilos. They have time to develop Kalina as a better boat, and they are perfectly capable of doing that.

    Part of the design process involves estimates and projections... the first model Su-27 was supposed to be superior to the F-15 aerodynamically but it wasn't and needed a complete design update to change its performance from inferior to superior, but once they improved the design they didn't cancel it and then design a brand new from scratch design to replace it because the in service aircraft (MiG-23) needed replacing.

    They had Kilo class subs and they are good boats, but they wanted something that was a generation better and they designed the lada class sub to replace it... they laid down three hulls but after testing the first completed vessel it didn't have the performance they were hoping for. It was superior to the Kilo class but not enough to justify putting that particular design into serial production so they stopped the two other Lada hulls and they spent some time changing and modifying the first sub to get it up to expectations... they don't have a US equivalent to say they want it better than that but obviously they had some level of expectation which presumably they achieved because those upgrades and modifications were applied to the two remaining Lada class subs and the first model and they are planning to make a few more... I have heard numbers from 4 to 6 which suggests to me that they have something significantly better than a Kilo because the new Ladas wont be cheap or as quick and upgrading Kilos with the technology used in the Ladas to improve their performance.

    I mean on the face of it having a current force of lets say 12 Kilos and improved Kilos... with crews of 52 per boat with a total of 624 crew, now replacing them one for one with Lada subs that are smaller and lighter but have the same fire power and presumably better sensors and propulsion and 35 personnel per sub meaning you have 204 extra crew available but you can cover the same or greater areas doing the same job or perhaps better.

    Some of those Kilos are getting old so replacement is becoming necessary anyway, but a ship with better performance that is smaller and lighter and with 30% less crew required to run it... what is not to like?

    It is not like they only have SSKs so the lack of being able to operate submerged for a month at a time is no big deal except for potential export partners who don't have SSNs and SSGNs and SSBNs that can already do that.

    Its probably the way they are going, revert to order new 636.3 instead of Ladas.

    But they haven't. They are not ordering new Kilos for their Navy they are ordering new Ladas, while funding further development of the Kalinas.

    In the meantime work out the kinks with AIP and new sonar so the Kalina will be a better boat and working free of all the problems that have plagued Ladas.

    Hardly plagued. Kilos and improved Kilos are selling so there is no gap and no urgency...

    The subs with AIP would sell better, & suspect it's their primary motivation to develop it.

    AIP would be more useful for a smaller nation with these subs as their only subs... the combination of cruise missile capacity and AIP would make them rather potent systems.

    Diesel AIP is taking longer, but it is worth it because all the worlds ports can handle diesel storage and handling... not very many of them are able to handle Hydrogen and oxygen storage and handling... They also said the energy they were generating from the prototypes was about three times better than hydrogen fuel cell technology from other makers... so there is that as well.

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