Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Share
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6406
    Points : 6508
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:00 am

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

    These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

    Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

    Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

    Apparently not, 2 current and 2 yet to be signed are to get diesel-electric. And 5th.. far into future might get AIP.

    It seems like they are rather pushing Lada so they dont look like they wasted time and money on the project, because to be frank without AIP, it brings nothing thats worth of logistic nightmare it will create.

    Logistics nightmare over conventional sub? I don't think so especially when compared to actual logistics nightmares​ they got around.

    Besides they are doing with these subs what they should be doing with frigates: keep building to get the numbers even if not everything is ready because in several years it will be and you better have fresh vessels available.

    Last thing they need is another Gorshkov fiasco where they halted all production because some components are late (even though they will be ready soon) and dooming entire class of ships in the process.

    Better fresh conventional and upgradable Lada in service than fancy AIP Lada on the drawing board. And AIP will be coming along anyway.

    Kilos are actually still being built (6 more at least). They can afford to move onto new stuff in parallel. These aren't SSBNs, they are submersible equivalent of Buyans more or less...
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2109
    Points : 2105
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:37 am

    While a Russian AIP was tested, it didn't meet what they wanted in demand. But overall, Lada class sub met all other demands. So it appears they are just going to build it till the new AIP is completed. Although, they are unsure which vessel will be lucky to test new AIP. There are doubts any current Lada will, so possibly 5th one will end up being test subject.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17696
    Points : 18292
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:49 am

    What logistical nightmare?

    The Lada class subs improve technology in every area compared with upgraded Kilos... and upgraded Kilos are already very good subs.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1529
    Points : 1525
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Isos on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:42 am

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:And no AIP yet... Build two Imp. Kilos instead of Lada till AIP is ready maybe then...

    These have smaller crew than Kilos and other fancier stuff so it makes sense. I mean, crew size alone is worth it.

    Plus they can install AIP during upgrade later unlike Kilos. Those subs are exquisite but they pretty much used up all upgrade potential.

    Third Lada is supposed to get AIP if my memory serves me.

    Apparently not, 2 current and 2 yet to be signed are to get diesel-electric. And 5th.. far into future might get AIP.

    It seems like they are rather pushing Lada so they dont look like they wasted time and money on the project, because to be frank without AIP, it brings nothing thats worth of logistic nightmare it will create.

    If they want to put AIP in their diesel subs they should build them bigger. Like french baracuda class they sold to australia. At least 100m long so they can carry more vls and be send further than kilos or lada.

    For shore defence kilo are very good and they have more than 80 years of experience of operating those diesel subs near their shores.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2197
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:03 am

    Isos wrote:

    For shore defence kilo are very good and they have more than 80 years of experience of operating those diesel subs near their shores.


    Lada AIP/Kalina can stay longer underwater and move faster with considerable speeds = stealth in both  blue and green waters scenario.




    If they want to put AIP in their diesel subs they should build them bigger. Like french baracuda class they sold to australia. At least 100m long so they can carry more vls and be send further than kilos or lada.


    Barracuda for Aussies? Do you mean  DAT class? Oh la la

    “The most immediate and possibly the biggest risk flowing from the decision to acquire the Shortfin Barracuda — a submarine that is yet to be designed, let alone built — is the inevitable long schedule for its delivery,” the report states.

    Even on the best possible scenario where everything goes according to present plans, the first Shortfin Barracuda becomes operational only in 2033, while the Collins Class submarines are scheduled to be progressively withdrawn at the age of 30, between 2026 and 2033. Even then, under these very benign circumstances where everything goes according to plan, the Navy will have only one submarine in 2034 and perhaps four by 2040. This capability is clearly inadequate.”
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/submarine-report-government-advised-to-shelve-50bn-plan-for-frenchbuilt-subs/news-story/13e0f9ff0ed99705b12ea1e1b54466d8?nk=872bb660b913e5f29796965cf6259713-1510192696
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5829
    Points : 5868
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Militarov on Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:04 am

    This Lada order is stopgap of a stopgap, simply to put it.

    When its about logistical issues, regular maintenance of conventional sub is a nightmare on its own, disregarding major overhauls. Now when you end up with 3 types in service, 4th coming with different propulsion... oh thats going to be fun.

    As i said before, 3 types of trucks we used were bad enough.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17696
    Points : 18292
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:22 am

    Weapons and systems and sensors are becoming more unified and modular... Kilos will likely get Lada based bits in upgrades and over time they will all become more and more alike.

    Only making a few Lada class subs makes sense when the replacement design based on what has been learned in the development of Kilo upgrades and Lada subs is going to be ready soon.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 932
    Points : 936
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Weapons and systems and sensors are becoming more unified and modular... Kilos will likely get Lada based bits in upgrades and over time they will all become more and more alike.

    Only making a few Lada class subs makes sense when the replacement design based on what has been learned in the development of Kilo upgrades and Lada subs is going to be ready soon.

    The Lada is more of a political sub than anything, Improved kilos are just has good the thing with Lada was it was supposed to get The jets.

    Since it's far too expensive to rip the kilos open to install the jets.

    I suspect they just got a couple more to justify the class in general, this isn't unusual every navy has this type of situation.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17696
    Points : 18292
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:15 am

    The Ladas were a totally different system and were supposed to be equivalent to SSNs in all areas except speed and endurance.

    The sonar set is supposed to be very very capable, and to have an auto loading system for torpedos that allows high rate sustained fire power unheard of previously in any sub of any type.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2359
    Points : 2373
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:57 pm

    Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    But wait, RuN actually building a ship that their shipyards can handle in sufficient volume.... (Grigorovich, improved Kilo) unshaven
    Not happening. Moar pork barrel projects for the masses tongue
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2197
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:15 am

    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing? BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17696
    Points : 18292
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:25 am

    Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    The Lada design was a very ambitious design that was going to be several levels ahead of any other conventional sub.

    The first three never had AIP systems to begun ith so I don't know what you are talking about in that regard.

    Moar pork barrel projects for the masses

    Yeah, because the Russian MIC is exactly the same as the US MIC... not.

    The Lada design was a natural progression beyond the Kilo class. It was not until they actually built one and tested it to see if its projected performance equalled reality that they realised they needed to make some changes. Those changes were applied to the two other hulls laid down already.

    Three Ladas will enter Russian navy service and will be effective and capable boats no matter what you say.

    There might be a fourth boat with an experimental AIP or they could start the Kalina class for testing or alter an existing vessel for testing.

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing? BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    KGs transmitter is currently stuck on whine... he wont be worth listening to until he gets his panties out of his crack and unbunched.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2359
    Points : 2373
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:41 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90 lol1
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2359
    Points : 2373
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:44 am

    GarryB wrote:The first three never had AIP systems to begun ith so I don't know what you are talking about in that regard.

    I'm saying that they are useless and serve no purpose in being operational in such low number, when improved Kilo production can serve the same mission in a more consolidated fashion. It's just like the F-35, they inducted useless early blocks instead of the full capability.
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2343
    Points : 2508
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:48 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90 lol1

    You must be an avid reader of Novaya Gazeta (or something similar)...your pearls of wisdom remind me of the rantings of their "expert" contributors
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2359
    Points : 2373
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:50 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90 lol1

    You must be an avid reader of Novaya Gazeta (or something similar)...your pearls of wisdom remind me of the rantings of their "expert" contributors

    I'm not the one comparing the useful Improved Kilo argument vis a vis non-AIP Lada, to T-55 production restart.
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 932
    Points : 936
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:25 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    The Lada design was a very ambitious design that was going to be several levels ahead of any other conventional sub.

    The first three never had AIP systems to begun ith so I don't know what you are talking about in that regard.

    Moar pork barrel projects for the masses

    Yeah, because the Russian MIC is exactly the same as the US MIC... not.

    The Lada design was a natural progression beyond the Kilo class. It was not until they actually built one and tested it to see if its projected performance equalled reality that they realised they needed to make some changes. Those changes were applied to the two other hulls laid down already.

    Three Ladas will enter Russian navy service and will be effective and capable boats no matter what you say.

    There might be a fourth boat with an experimental AIP or they could start the Kalina class for testing or alter an existing vessel for testing.

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing? BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    KGs transmitter is currently stuck on whine... he wont be worth listening to until he gets his panties out of his crack and unbunched.

    Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.

    Nothing in that sub makes it "several levels ahead" you seem to think everything Russia spits out is a dam super weapon, not even most US fanboys I see are this bad in that aspect.

    Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all, if the sub was so amazing like you are making it out to be they would not stop at three, they would not have bothered to lay down more improved Kilos for the Pacific fleet. If they had something better available.

    so get your fanboyism out of your arguments.

    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 932
    Points : 936
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:27 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    Considering the Kilos will be in service yet in 2030, that's a question to ask the MoD.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2197
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:03 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

    You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

    Considering the Kilos will be in service yet in 2030, that's a question to ask the MoD.

    MoD must work with what they have not necessarily they like. As for Kilos why not upgrade all BMP-2 instead procure something newer? even BMP-3M Proven construction. I
    IMHO if you take into consideration that "jumping" on new technological level is un likely for most of shipyards (or any production enterprises) sticking to 80s technology and trying to improve it instead of moving a step forward is not necessarily better option.

    Mindstorm

    Posts : 784
    Points : 959
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:25 pm


    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
    .......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

    Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

    - Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
    - Authomation (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
    - Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
    - Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
    - Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
    - Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
    - Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
    - Defensive suite


    In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

    "Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.

    Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
    Simple like that Wink


    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2359
    Points : 2373
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:37 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
    .......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

    Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

    - Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
    - Authomation  (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
    - Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
    - Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
    - Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
    - Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
    - Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
    - Defensive suite                                                    


    In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

    "Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but  in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.  

    Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
    Simple like that  Wink

     

    Weapons, tubes and capacity-wise iKilos are the same to those 3 Ladas. On there rest you have a point but I fail to see how it's game-changing to justify 3 odd boats being inducted like that.
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 932
    Points : 936
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:53 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
    .......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

    Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

    - Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
    - Authomation  (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
    - Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
    - Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
    - Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
    - Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
    - Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
    - Defensive suite                                                    


    In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

    "Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but  in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.  

    Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
    Simple like that  Wink

     

    If these stats where accurate...the Russians would not have stopped at three so forgive me if I do not buy it, nor would it be the first time the Russians posted inaccurate stats. Yes before someone has to goi "WEll so did the US" we do at times also, I do not deny that.

    you can tell me this sub is capable of X but that doesn't mean it's capable of X.

    I have long since learned you do not take weapons developers words for fact and that goes for any country US, China or Russia.

    so unless you have the technical blueprints to the sub, I am only inclined to consider this just "theories and opinions".
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6406
    Points : 6508
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:03 pm

    Weapons, tubes and capacity-wise iKilos are the same to those 3 Ladas. On there rest you have a point but I fail to see how it's game-changing to justify 3 odd boats being inducted like that.

    If those numbers are accurate then it's not some tiny improvement, those are significant step ups, just look at battery upgrades alone

    Crew has been trimmed down significantly as well

    Also there will not bee thre odd subs, they already ordered fourth one and more will follow most likely

    And everyone keeps forgetting that Ladas are fresh platforms with plenty of upgrade potential while Kilos are at the end of theirs, current basic design is 4 decades old

    As for AIP it can be added to conventional Ladas later, doing it on Kilos would be major hassle and honestly not worth it

    Two Ladas currently built seem to be on schedule so in comparison to Kilos they keep up in that department as well
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 932
    Points : 936
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Weapons, tubes and capacity-wise iKilos are the same to those 3 Ladas. On there rest you have a point but I fail to see how it's game-changing to justify 3 odd boats being inducted like that.

    If those numbers are accurate then it's not some tiny improvement, those are significant step ups, just look at battery upgrades alone

    Crew has been trimmed down significantly as well

    Also there will not bee thre odd subs, they already ordered fourth one and more will follow most likely

    And everyone keeps forgetting that Ladas are fresh platforms with plenty of upgrade potential while Kilos are at the end of theirs, current basic design is 4 decades old

    As for AIP it can be added to conventional Ladas later, doing it on Kilos would be major hassle and honestly not worth it

    Two Ladas currently built seem to be on schedule so in comparison to Kilos they keep up in that department as well

    If the subs are acquired in such minor numbers upgrade potential is meaningless.

    so far the MOD said they want two more, however, I have yet to see anything written on paper and I have it from a good source on that stuff.

    so until I see actual ink in a way I do not consider what the MOD says to be fact.

    Lada is very much a project that may have had good intentions but became an utter mess.

    The capabilities of the sub are hardly clear. Frankly if they are such wonder subs the MoD would not have decided to build 6 improved kilo's for the Pacific fleet. They would have gone with Lada's.

    The fact they are going to so few shows there is a big problem and no I do not consider the numbers listed above fact. That's like me going to youtube and taking some armchair experts word for fact.

    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2197
    Points : 2241
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote: If these stats where accurate...the Russians would not have stopped at three so forgive me if I do not buy it

    T-44 want bad tank either  so why Soviet MoD did not produce thousands of it?
    IMHO there's nothing wrong with Lada. It was just born in wrong time.  Years of under-funding took its tool.  Kilo/Improved Kilo are based on design in 70th.
    Potential for modernization is almost exhausted. Lada just skipped a generation because between design and correct funding took too much time. But I'd consider it an important step in improving design experiences of Russian yards.



    SeigSoloyvov wrote: If the subs are acquired in such minor numbers upgrade potential is meaningless.


    true but they are rather a new link in evolution



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Lada is very much a project that may have had good intentions but became an utter mess.

    The capabilities of the sub are hardly clear. Frankly if they are such wonder subs the MoD would not have decided to build 6 improved kilo's for the Pacific fleet. They would have gone with Lada's.


    Risk management? 636 is adequate and proven in production in series. As simple as that. So what if Lada is 1,5 times better if risk of restarting mass production and fixing design flaws might take a while?



    SeigSoloyvov wrote: so unless you have the technical blueprints to the sub, I am only inclined to consider this just "theories and opinions".

    Indeed your statements inclusive since you don't have blueprints either thumbsup

    Sponsored content

    Re: Lada/Amur Submarine: News and Development

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:44 pm