USA - Australia military cooperation

walle83 wrote:What kind of submarine is the question. Virginia class subs? They could be deliverd fast. But are the US ready to give away such secrets to even a close ally?

But they cant build a new boat from scratch either, would take years before they were ready. Or are the US and UK creating something new(ish) based on ready technology from the Virginia and Astute classes.

Isos wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Sujoy wrote:Australia to purchase nuclear submarines (SSN) from USA

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-15/allied-naval-united-states-biden-australia-nuclear-submarines/100465628

USA selling nuke subs to anyone would be paradigm shift

I'll believe it when I see it

They will also ask UK to build more SSN and base them in the pacific. UK has an island full of single family inbreads weiredos there.

Bad news for France which looses 50 years, 50 billion $ contract for 12 subs. . I wonder why at first they really thought they could wiin such a contract in US backyard.

Biden to announce joint deal with U.K. and Australia on advanced defense-tech sharing
One source said there is a nuclear-defense infrastructure to the three-way pact known as AUKUS.

The Australian Flag is seen.
The Australian flag flies. | Darrian Traynor/Getty Images

By ALEXANDER WARD and PAUL MCLEARY

09/15/2021 08:55 AM EDT

Updated: 09/15/2021 04:33 PM EDT

President Joe Biden will announce a new working group with Britain and Australia to share advanced technologies in a thinly veiled bid to counter China, a White House official and a congressional staffer told POLITICO.

The trio, which will be known by the acronym AUKUS, will make it easier for the three countries to share information and know-how in key technological areas like artificial intelligence, cyber, underwater systems and long-range strike capabilities.


One of the people said there will be a nuclear element to the pact in which the U.S. and U.K. share their knowledge of how to maintain nuclear-defense infrastructure.


There’s nothing explicitly mentioning China in the three-way deal, the people said, but both noted that the subtext of the announcement is that this is another move by Western allies to push back on China’s rise in the military and technology arenas.

“This is a surprising and extremely welcome sign of the Biden administration’s willingness to empower close allies like Australia through the provision of highly advanced defense technology assistance — something that Washington has rarely been willing to do,” said Ashley Townsend, director of foreign policy and defense programming at the United States Center in Sydney. “It suggests a new and more strategic approach to working collectively with allies on Indo-Pacific defence priorities.”

Australia’s Financial Review newspaper reported Canberra will abandon a $90 billion submarine deal with France and will now acquire an American-made nuclear-powered submarine. The French deal had long been in trouble, with the Naval Group, the French shipbuilder tasked with constructing the 12 submarines, and the Australian government sparring over design changes and cost increases.

A new class of nuclear-powered submarines would give Washington and its allies in the Pacific a powerful new tool to attempt to contain Chinese military expansion, and would follow on the current deployment of a British aircraft carrier to the region, and recent transits by French and German warships to the South China Sea.



The U.S. and U.K. have long partnered on their nuclear-powered submarine programs, sharing technology across their various classes of ships. Bringing Australia into the fold would would a major step in increasing the ability of the three countries to operate together undersea across the Pacific, as well as adding a powerful allied punch in the region that is currently lacking.

Beijing has a growing missile arsenal at its disposal and its forces are increasingly aggressive, sailing naval ships near Japanese and American waters in recent days. It’s part of China’s effort to assert its primacy in the Indo-Pacific and lay claim to disputed territories. Chinese officials say territory that falls within the country’s “nine-dash line” in the South China Sea belongs to Beijing.

In response, the U.S. continues to build partnerships with other nations that serve as a bulwark against China. One such group is known as “the Quad” and has the U.S., Japan, Australia and India as members. Formed in its current iteration in 2017, the four-nation team never says that its economic, technological and military cooperation is about thwarting Beijing’s aims, but analysts say the Quad wouldn’t be as robust today if it weren’t for China’s continued aggressions.

On Sept. 24, all four Quad-nation heads will meet at the White House for the first-ever in-person, leader-level gathering of the group.

A trade war between China and Australia has also worsened relations between the countries. The dispute, which began in April 2020 after Prime Minister Scott Morrison asked for an inquiry into the origins of Covid-19, has cost the two nations roughly $4 billion. Josh Frydenberg, Australia’s treasurer, this month accused Beijing of trying to exert “political pressure” with penalties on Australian products.

And China-India relations have also been tense, with recent fatal standoffs at their long-disputed border high in the Himalayas.

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:What kind of submarine is the question. Virginia class subs? They could be deliverd fast. But are the US ready to give away such secrets to even a close ally?

But they cant build a new boat from scratch either, would take years before they were ready. Or are the US and UK creating something new(ish) based on ready technology from the Virginia and Astute classes.

Virginia is too fresh if you ask me

Maybe they could get some of the fresher Los Angeles-class on loan first?

Finty wrote:An interesting development, I won't gloat too much about the French losing out!

PapaDragon wrote:

Finty wrote:An interesting development, I won't gloat too much about the French losing out!

Of course, of course...

Isos wrote:Bad news for France which looses 50 years, 50 billion $ contract for 12 subs. . I wonder why at first they really thought they could wiin such a contract in US backyard.

PapaDragon wrote:Virginia is too fresh if you ask me

Maybe they could get some of the fresher Los Angeles-class on loan first?

Sujoy wrote:A rumor doing the round is that Australia might go for the Astute class SSN but using the new PWR3 reactor destined for the U.K's Dreadnaught Class of SSBNs. Which is largely based on a GE design. They could go for say an Astute but with the Virginia Payload Module, for an improved land attack capability.

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media captionWatch: Australia’s ‘risky bet’ to side with US over China
China has criticised a historic security pact between the US, UK and Australia, describing it as "extremely irresponsible" and "narrow minded".

The deal will see the US and UK give Australia the technology to build nuclear-powered submarines for the first time.

It is being widely viewed as an effort to counter China's influence in the contested South China Sea.

The region has been a flashpoint for years and tensions there remain high.

Chinese Foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said the alliance risked "severely damaging regional peace... and intensifying the arms race".

He criticised what he called "the obsolete cold war... mentality" and warned the three countries were "hurting their own interests".

Chinese state media carried similar editorials denouncing the pact, and one in the Global Times newspaper said Australia had now "turned itself into an adversary of China".

ANALYSIS: Why this pact signals a major shift
EXPLAINED: Tensions in the South China Sea
The US is sharing its submarine technology for the first time in 50 years, having previously only shared it with the UK.

It means Australia will now be able to build nuclear-powered submarines that are faster and harder to detect than conventionally powered fleets. They can stay submerged for months and shoot missiles longer distances - although Australia says it has no intention of putting nuclear weapons on them.

The new partnership, under the name Aukus, was announced in a joint virtual press conference between US President Joe Biden, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart Scott Morrison on Wednesday evening and Thursday morning.

And while China was not mentioned directly, the three leaders referred repeatedly to regional security concerns which they said had "grown significantly".

"This is an historic opportunity for the three nations, with like-minded allies and partners, to protect shared values and promote security and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific region," a joint statement read.

Who has nuclear-powered subs?
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The Aukus alliance is probably the most significant security arrangement between the three nations since World War Two, analysts say.

It means Australia will become just the seventh nation in the world to operate nuclear-powered submarines.

While they are the big-ticket item in the deal, cyber capabilities and other undersea technologies will also be shared.

"This really shows that all three nations are drawing a line in the sand to start and counter [China's] aggressive moves," said Guy Boekenstein from the Asia Society Australia.

Boris Johnson later said the pact would "preserve security and stability around the world" and generate "hundreds of high-skilled jobs".

UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace told the BBC that China was "embarking on one of the biggest military spends in history... Our partners in those regions want to be able to stand their own ground."


media captionWhy is everyone fighting over the South China Sea?
In recent years, Beijing has been accused of raising tensions in disputed territories such as the South China Sea.

It has been increasingly assertive over what it says are centuries-old rights to the contested region, and has been rapidly building up its military presence to back up those claims.

The US has bolstered its military presence too, and has been investing heavily in other partnerships in the region such as with Japan and South Korea.

Having the submarines stationed in Australia is critical to US influence in the region, analysts say.

Tensions between China and Australia
China is Australia's biggest trading partner, and in the past, the two have maintained good relations.

But in recent years, political tensions have created a deep rift, stoked by Australia criticising China's treatment of ethnic Uighurs, banning some technology from telecom giant Huawei and supporting an investigation into the origins of the coronavirus pandemic.

Western nations have also been wary of China's booming infrastructure investment on Pacific islands, and have criticised its heavy trade sanctions against countries like Australia - last year it slapped Australian wine with taxes of up to 200%.

'A stab in the back'
But France has also reacted angrily to the new pact, because it means Australia will now abandon a $50bn (€31bn; £27bn) deal with it to build 12 submarines.

"It's really a stab in the back," France's Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told France Info radio. "We had established a relationship of trust with Australia, this trust has been betrayed."

The European Union's foreign policy chief, Josep Borrell said he understood why France was disappointed by the deal, adding that the EU was not consulted about the new alliance.

"This forces us once again... to reflect on the need to make the issue of European strategic autonomy a priority. This shows that we must survive on our own," he said on Thursday.

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Mir wrote:Nuclear subs for Australia does make a lot of sense considering that they are a key US ally in the fight against China BUT this program is going to be hugely expensive if the subs are going to be new builds. Might in the end prove too expensive and then they may have to crawl back to France for a cheaper alternative. Australia is practically a jail atm due to the Covid restrictions but there used to be a very strong anti-nuclear lobby in Australia which can also put an abrupt end to these plans when it comes to election time.

The French on the hand can suddenly turn a friendly hand towards China in helping them to develop new nuclear subs. Much like they did during rosier times with China. Fact is - no matter what - the French are really pissed off! Interesting times ahead for NATO as well.

As in Finty's post - China is not going to take it well and they will surely respond "appropriately".

Isos wrote:

French are out. It's finish for them. Even if they go for a diesel sub US will push them for a sweedish or japanese sub full of US stuff. Anglo-saxons don't like french.

I disagree with your first sentence. Australia isn't a key ally. It is a lost ally because China is already rulling there economically. US can't do anything against that, if China put sanctions or stops it eco partnership with them they will all be poor and bankrupt. Those subs are a desperate move.

Australia can't declare eco war to China. It's totally dependant on chinese growth. All their natural ressources are bought by chinese companies. If they try to replace China by US they will go bankrupt.

China knew from the begining when western companies delocalized their production in China that they will rule the world one day. Western governements were too busy eating dollars. And now that they eat less and less and have to give to unemployed people in their countries they see how they fucked up.

Sujoy wrote:A rumor doing the round is that Australia might go for the Astute class SSN but using the new PWR3 reactor destined for the U.K's Dreadnaught Class of SSBNs. Which is largely based on a GE design. They could go for say an Astute but with the Virginia Payload Module, for an improved land attack capability.

walle83 wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Didnt watch this as yt channel is garbage.