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    Mikoyan LMFS

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    Isos
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:34 pm

    Well I get what you said but I still think a more stealthy airframe would have been better for the export potentiel and the for the capabilities of the Aircraft. Stealth is very usefull for modern fighter even if it's not, like US fanboy thinks, a super power which will make you win a war. But it's still a very nice plane and very capable.

    India wants more the transfert of western technology for their domestical programs than not having just russian stuff. But the fact is that they are not mature to develope their own things and westerns are not going to give them their best technology for low prices. That's what happened with Dassault, they wanted a factory for the rafale, rafales, ToT, meteors ... for very low prices that's why at the end they went for just 36 Rafales. The final contract has nothing to do with what they wanted.

    This the same with Grigorovitch frigates. They localy produce their own Shivalik class frigate which are bigger and "improved" Talwar class and have the project 17A frigates. But they stil ordered 6 Russian Grigorovitch. The prices are almost the same but they chosed Russian frigate, maybe their is a reason.

    For maintaining the Mig-31 and Mig-29 SMT, they can just give this work to Sukhoi or Yak with all the technical data transferted to them. And they ordered 30 Aircraft as of today, not 180. I don't really know if their was a contract signed, the plane is still tested by the air force. The hole thing was communication and marketing. But if they order them, well I agree Mig will be saved.

    Militarov
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:13 pm

    Russian airforce commanders few times expressed their wish to obtain single engined multirole fighters, however there were none, during second Chechen War they even tried retrieving some MiG-27s and MiG-23s from the storages but they werent...in all that useful shape to say at least even tho they were retired just few years earlier.

    Even tho sometimes, not always, buying twin engined fighter is cheaper (very rare cases actually) maintenance is impossible to be cheaper, two turbines, two afterburner chambers... unless you make spares from cheese its not going to be cheaper. Fuel consumption basically has to be higher, depending on engines we compare ALOT higher, oil especially... then you need to buy more spare engines too... two engines are luxury no matter how you put it.

    That is why i always liked idea of single engined multirole fighters, eveno tho F-16 isnt really my favourite model, i always prefered Tigershark over it despite its ill fated destiny. Yugoslavian Yu-supersonic project if it ever saw light of the day would have been decent machine, sadly it didnt.

    When its about comparing prices, we all here know that prices are differently formed in Russia and West. When you take some of the contracts they signed for aircraft delivery you come to conclusion that price per bort was less than 20 million USD, which is unlikely, but what happens then is that followup contracts for training, maintenance, spares, weapons... follow and pile up the price basically matching prices we see on the West.

    Now, Indian tender wasnt going smoothly either, India wanted originally 126 fighters for somewhat below 8 billion which at that moment only F-16 could fit, its highly unrelistic they could get Gripen or EF-2000 in that amount for same money. When they disqualified other competitors due to different reasons (F-16 being political, MiG-35 due to pressure from the airfroce which wasnt happy with their current MiG-29 fleet performance, EF-2000 due to...price?) they were left with Dassault Rafale and French decided that transfer of technology suddenly wasnt all that great idea. Then Indians which desperately need more fighters decided to buy only 3 squadrons as short-term solution and French seeing they are going to lose the cake started piling up the price.

    Isos
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:09 pm


    Now, Indian tender wasnt going smoothly either, India wanted originally 126 fighters for somewhat below 8 billion which at that moment only F-16 could fit, its highly unrelistic they could get Gripen or EF-2000 in that amount for same money. When they disqualified other competitors due to different reasons (F-16 being political, MiG-35 due to pressure from the airfroce which wasnt happy with their current MiG-29 fleet performance, EF-2000 due to...price?) they were left with Dassault Rafale and French decided that transfer of technology suddenly wasnt all that great idea. Then Indians which desperately need more fighters decided to buy only 3 squadrons as short-term solution and French seeing they are going to lose the cake started piling up the price.

    If I'm right, there is two tenders. The first one was won by Dassault but they didn't get what they wanted so it's still open to EF-2000 and Mig-35 which was designed for Inda at first and all the issues from Mig-29 were solved. Most of these issues were service life and parts for engines which were difficult to obtain.

    The second one is for a single engine fighter.


    You talked about single engines being a requirement for India in the portion of your post I responded to and I was responding to that.

    Yes it's a requirement in the second tender. That's why neither Mig neither Typhoon or Rafale are participating. Just F-16 and Grippen can participate.

    Militarov
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Militarov on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:07 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Now, Indian tender wasnt going smoothly either, India wanted originally 126 fighters for somewhat below 8 billion which at that moment only F-16 could fit, its highly unrelistic they could get Gripen or EF-2000 in that amount for same money. When they disqualified other competitors due to different reasons (F-16 being political, MiG-35 due to pressure from the airfroce which wasnt happy with their current MiG-29 fleet performance, EF-2000 due to...price?) they were left with Dassault Rafale and French decided that transfer of technology suddenly wasnt all that great idea. Then Indians which desperately need more fighters decided to buy only 3 squadrons as short-term solution and French seeing they are going to lose the cake started piling up the price.

    If I'm right, there is two tenders. The first one was won by Dassault but they didn't get what they wanted so it's still open to EF-2000 and Mig-35 which was designed for Inda at first and all the issues from Mig-29 were solved. Most of these issues were service life and parts for engines which were difficult to obtain.

    The second one is for a single engine fighter.

    Yes, exactly, Indian MRCA tender is done with Dassault Rafale as winner, and we can say that whole project in general failed. They did not get the bort quota they wanted, did not get technology transfer, they paid almost as much they plannned originally for whole order. Plus they placed stone around their neck, since they will most likely end up ordering Rafale-M as their future maritime fighter, in order to try and marginalise the expenses.

    Yes, current tender is separate and its limited to only single engined platforms and basically is try number two to partially replace MiG-21/27 asap.


    Austin
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Austin Yesterday at 5:02 pm

    Russian company working on a lightweight stealth fighter to replace the Mig-29 and Mig35

    http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/russian-company-working-on-lightweight.html


    Russia’s RSK-MiG is working on a new lightweight fifth-generation stealth fighter to replace the Mikoyan MiG-29 and MiG-35 Fulcrum series fighters.

    Called the Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyet (LMFS)—or Light Multi-Function Frontal Aircraft in English—United Aircraft Corporation is developing the new aircraft out of its own funds, reports aviation journalist Piotr Butowski in the French-language trade journal Air and Cosmos.

    The LMFS will use a canard configuration reminiscent of the now-defunct Mikoyan Project 1.44 design, which was developed in the late 1980s as the Soviet Union’s answer to the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

    The aircraft will likely have an empty weight of roughly 33,000lbs and a maximum takeoff weight of 55,000lbs. The aircraft will be equipped with internal weapons bays and advanced avionics—assuming it ever reaches fruition.

    As currently envisioned, the new fighter will be equipped with a pair of the Klimov VK-10M afterburning turbofans—which are advanced derivatives of the MiG-29-series’ RD-33 powerplant—rated at 22,000lb thrust each. That should enable the aircraft to reach speeds of between Mach 1.8 and Mach 2.0 with a range of 2485 miles when configured with external droptanks.

    It is possible that Mikoyan may revise the design into a single-engine configuration if the PAK-FA’s next-generation izdeliye 30 engines reach a suitable level of maturity in time. There are few details available about the izdeliye 30 engines, but the new powerplant is expected to deliver 24,054lbs dry thrust and 39,566lbs of afterburning thrust.







    Azi
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Azi Today at 12:15 am

    Austin wrote:Russian company working on a lightweight stealth fighter to replace the Mig-29 and Mig35

    http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/russian-company-working-on-lightweight.html


    Russia’s RSK-MiG is working on a new lightweight fifth-generation stealth fighter to replace the Mikoyan MiG-29 and MiG-35 Fulcrum series fighters.

    Called the Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyet (LMFS)—or Light Multi-Function Frontal Aircraft in English—United Aircraft Corporation is developing the new aircraft out of its own funds, reports aviation journalist Piotr Butowski in the French-language trade journal Air and Cosmos.

    The LMFS will use a canard configuration reminiscent of the now-defunct Mikoyan Project 1.44 design, which was developed in the late 1980s as the Soviet Union’s answer to the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

    The aircraft will likely have an empty weight of roughly 33,000lbs and a maximum takeoff weight of 55,000lbs. The aircraft will be equipped with internal weapons bays and advanced avionics—assuming it ever reaches fruition.

    As currently envisioned, the new fighter will be equipped with a pair of the Klimov VK-10M afterburning turbofans—which are advanced derivatives of the MiG-29-series’ RD-33 powerplant—rated at 22,000lb thrust each. That should enable the aircraft to reach speeds of between Mach 1.8 and Mach 2.0 with a range of 2485 miles when configured with external droptanks.

    It is possible that Mikoyan may revise the design into a single-engine configuration if the PAK-FA’s next-generation izdeliye 30 engines reach a suitable level of maturity in time. There are few details available about the izdeliye 30 engines, but the new powerplant is expected to deliver 24,054lbs dry thrust and 39,566lbs of afterburning thrust.


    The picture is disturbing, because it's only fanart or a rough concept. I doubt LMFS will look like this. But LMFS is the next correct step into the future! thumbsup

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  PapaDragon Today at 1:12 am


    I say they should wait for I-30 engine, go for single engine config and hit two birds with one stone and at 50% cost.

    GarryB
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  GarryB Today at 9:29 am

    I disagree.

    A single engine fighter might be slightly cheaper to operate and maintain, but a twin engine means better manouver capability with TVC engine nozzles and twin engine safety.

    The extra volume with two engines means more internal space for internal weapons and much better thrust margin.

    Two 12 ton thrust engines will be rather better than one 16 ton thrust engine and will allow for much higher loaded operational weights.

    Two engines add redundancy to resist battle damage or accidents.

    Sukhoi traditionally work with Saturn, while MiG traditionally work with Klimov... that is not likely to change any time soon.

    I think a single engined PAK FA could be used as the basis for a drone... just as a one engined MiG-LFS could also be the basis of a drone... they could operate with the fighters with little more than fuel and extra missiles as a support aircraft to engage enemy air forces in huge numbers...


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    Isos
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    Re: Mikoyan LMFS

    Post  Isos Today at 11:11 am

    GarryB wrote:I disagree.

    A single engine fighter might be slightly cheaper to operate and maintain, but a twin engine means better manouver capability with TVC engine nozzles and twin engine safety.

    The extra volume with two engines means more internal space for internal weapons and much better thrust margin.

    Two 12 ton thrust engines will be rather better than one 16 ton thrust engine and will allow for much higher loaded operational weights.

    Two engines add redundancy to resist battle damage or accidents.

    Sukhoi traditionally work with Saturn, while MiG traditionally work with Klimov... that is not likely to change any time soon.

    I think a single engined PAK FA could be used as the basis for a drone... just as a one engined MiG-LFS  could also be the basis of a drone... they could operate with the fighters with little more than fuel and extra missiles as a support aircraft to engage enemy air forces in huge numbers...

    Manouvrability with one engine can be improved with a better aerodynamic design. Western Aircrafts have decent manouvrability even if their engines are very close, like if they had just one. It's not really an issue for mig.

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