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    Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2011 3:13 am

    Probably a stiff jail term but unless he is stupid enough to return to Russia it is fairly unlikely Russia will be able to do much to him.
    Personally I hope when he is found guilty that there is punishment for the family members that went with him as they were clearly supporting his treason.

    The only punishment they are likely to face is having to live in the US in hiding for the rest of their lives.

    Of course someone that will betray their own government can just as easily betray their new found home too so they will probably live off the university lecture circuit and he can tell young American students about how evil Russia is and that they still can't be trusted and they are still commies etc etc. I am sure it will help him sleep at night knowing the stress of going to live in a completely different country away from friends away from where his parents and grandparents are buried, and wondering if that creak you heard at 3am downstairs was the house settling or an FSB squad come to get revenge.

    I am sure to justify his own actions he has convinced himself he is the good guy in a really bad James Bond movie and that the Russian government is evil and out to get him.

    With a bit of luck he will have a stroke.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Wed May 04, 2011 4:06 am

    GarryB wrote:Probably a stiff jail term but unless he is stupid enough to return to Russia it is fairly unlikely Russia will be able to do much to him.
    Personally I hope when he is found guilty that there is punishment for the family members that went with him as they were clearly supporting his treason.

    The only punishment they are likely to face is having to live in the US in hiding for the rest of their lives.

    Of course someone that will betray their own government can just as easily betray their new found home too so they will probably live off the university lecture circuit and he can tell young American students about how evil Russia is and that they still can't be trusted and they are still commies etc etc. I am sure it will help him sleep at night knowing the stress of going to live in a completely different country away from friends away from where his parents and grandparents are buried, and wondering if that creak you heard at 3am downstairs was the house settling or an FSB squad come to get revenge.

    I am sure to justify his own actions he has convinced himself he is the good guy in a really bad James Bond movie and that the Russian government is evil and out to get him.

    With a bit of luck he will have a stroke.

    So youre suggesting that Russia has very limited options in bringing this traitor to justice? Of course it would be too risky to use existing SVR assets that continues to operate undetected in the U.S. to apprehend this traitor but they can always resort to other more simpler ways to deal with him like executing him "Mafia" style with the hiring of local gunmen. Im sure the SVR have all the necessary resources to hire even the best assassins out there. You might think that Im being too violent by wishing the traitor to be eliminated but what happened with the so-called "Illegals Program" is just too damaging to Russia's intelligence capabilities. Russia needs to send a strong message that any attempts to thwart its intelligence operations will be dealt with brutal force. The "Shame" that has been brought with the arrest of Russia's agents will continue to linger unless justice is served against Alexander Poteyev and his family.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2011 4:55 am

    This game has been going on for centuries and will continue to do so.

    The fate of Russia and her future has not been ended by this traitor.

    There have been rules to this game in the past, though US treatment of these spies seems to have been excessive they pretty much handed them over without much actual fuss.

    I don't think hunting him down and killing him is worth the effort, but what is worth the effort is to look back at what happened and try to work out what signs were there and should have given him away and changes to procedure made to make sure it is less likely to lead to the perpetrator getting him or herself away with their family.

    I think the court will find him guilty and hand down a significant penalty... perhaps even life in prison, and that will be that.

    He can stay in the US with his family exiled from the place he was born and any remaining family and friends.

    Monitor the borders and if he tries to go back put him in prison.

    You have to remember that these spies he exposed were more economic spies working in Russias interests... they weren't working in military bases learning military secrets that would be crucial in any conflict.

    Their exposure is embarrassing but not much of a surprise. The US spies on everyone... especially its allies so it is hardly surprising that Russia spies on the US.

    I don't envy this traitors future life of false names and witness protection type "hiding" in a very foreign country.

    He and even more so his family will likely get homesick... an ailment there is only one cure for.

    If they try to go home then the court sentence can be carried out.

    I am sure if they really wanted to get him there would be a spy they have in the US bureaucracy that will take a few thousand dollars to reveal his whereabouts and his false identity.

    The thing is that getting him out of the US and to Russia would not be easy... if he visits a third country friendly to Russia then it could be done... but I rather doubt he would visit Cuba or Venezuela or similar places where the authorities would be happy to ignore demands from the US.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Wed May 04, 2011 5:10 am

    I think the court will find him guilty and hand down a significant penalty... perhaps even life in prison, and that will be that.

    well it seems like they've already decided to sentence him with a 20year prison term..

    Russia seeks 20 years for US spy ring traitor

    which is a big joke in my opinion since he isn't there at all to serve this sentence. oh well, Russia needs to learn to stop making such useless stunts which only displays its Weakness and Helplessness when dealing with deserters.


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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 04, 2011 6:11 am

    Seeking a 20 year sentence means the court case has not been held yet.

    It is up to the Russian courts to decide how to deal with him if he is caught.

    It is perfectly normal to hold trials with the accused still on the run if it is clear the accused is beyond the reach of the authorities.

    Following this procedure is normal and follows international law...

    It also means that if the accused is stupid enough to go to any country that Russia has an extradition treaty agreement with or to Russia they have grounds to arrest him and put him straight into prison.

    Following the rule of law has nothing to do with weakness... if everyone was as uncivilised as the Americans who kidnap and bomb when it pleases them there would be anarchy.

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    Defense Ministry confirms spy chief retirement

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:00 am

    Defense Ministry confirms spy chief retirement


    Col. Gen. Alexander Shlyakhturov has retired as chief of Russia’s military intelligence agency and handed over his duties to Maj. Gen. Igor Sergun, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Monday.

    Shlyakhturov, 64, who has led the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of Russia's Armed Forces (GRU) since April 2009, left his post because he has passed the age limit for service, the spokesman said.

    Earlier on Monday, government daily Rossiiskaya Gazeta denied an unattributed December 24 report by the Kommersant daily that Shlyakhturov had left his post.

    Rossiiskaya Gazeta quoted an unauthorized source as saying Shlyakhturov continues working for the GRU and has not handed over his duties to anyone.

    Little is known about Shlyakhturov's biography and service record.

    Kommersant said in its report Shlyakhturov would in the near future head the board of directors of the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology (MITT), the developer of the Bulava ballistic missile and other strategic missile systems.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111226/170500830.html

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:24 pm

    Canadian Navy officer allegedly leaked data to Russia – CTV News

    An intelligence officer and a navy sub-lieutenant with the Canadian military was arrested for allegedly sharing classified information with Russia, CTV News reports.

    Jeffrey Paul Delisle, 40, is accused of passing on secret data to a foreign entity. Unnamed sources told CTV`s Ottawa Bureau chief Robert Fife that the foreign entity is Russia, and that Delisle was caught red-handed last week.

    "Sources say that Russian espionage in this country is as extensive and aggressive as it was during the Cold War," Fife reported.

    Yet none of the allegations against Delisle has been proved in court, CTV News says.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:00 am




    FSB Officer Accused of Killing Ex-Army Jet Designer

    19:39 07/02/2012
    MOSCOW, February 7 (RIA Novosti)
    Tags: FSB, Idris Faizullin, Russia

    Investigators have solved the murder of Idris Faizullin, a businessman and retired plane designer who worked on the Su-27 fighter jet.

    The Investigative Committee did not identify the five suspects it reported detaining, saying only that they were unemployed.

    But Lifenews.ru tabloid claimed the group was headed by Andrei Leletko, an officer with the Federal Security Service (FSB).

    Faizullin earned more than 100 state awards for his work for the military, but his entrepreneurial ventures in the city of Zhukovsky in the Moscow region fared less well, landing him with a 12-million-ruble ($400,000) debt and a criminal case on embezzlement charges, Lifenews.ru said.

    The 59-year-old former designer was shot dead in his Lexus sedan in the Moscow region in March 2011. The Investigative Committee did not elaborate on motives behind the murder, but Lifenews.ru said Leletko and his four underlings killed Faizullin after he refused to make a payment to “solve the problems” his business was facing.

    The committee did not comment on reports about the FSB’s involvement in the killing.

    Su-27, a fourth-generation fighter jet, was introduced into the Soviet Air Force in 1984. About 350 of these jets remain in active use in Russia, and between 250 and 300 in other countries, including China, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Angola and Vietnam.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/crime/20120207/171200460.html

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:26 pm

    Russian engineer spied for US

    Russian Engineer General Colonel Vladimir Nesteretz was sentenced for spying for the United States. He will spend 13 years in jail for selling classified information concerning Russian intercontinental ballistic missile systems to the American CIA. For more details on the issue we will speak with Alexander Artemiev, International Observer for Gazeta.ru.

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    Do you know your children?

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:11 am

    Worldwide their exist an army that is unmatched in vibrancy, rate of learning, share size and soul. We see forms of these super soldier armies of young blood whether in the form of Anonymous in the western societies or Nashi in the East and the Arab spring in the middle. Across planet earth youths from the ages 14-20 years are realizing their new found power and impacting the world we know. This army of youths contains captivating leaders, proactive members but yet all intelligence agencies have miserably failed in providing incentives for we the young lads, they have failed in providing career opportunity for these young lads that would want to serve towards their vehement beliefs, whether they want to serve a foreign nation or their own, yes they have all failed.

    It seems that intelligence agencies especially foreign intelligence agencies fail to realize that abroad, someone, somewhere at sometime have decided in their mind that they want to enter to intelligence community as a career agent for their own reason, but they don’t see stepping stones , they don't see the light from the open door that they may enter into this community and be nurtured by the elders so this family may continue.

    Lets consider the case of taking foreign nationals. These days in the case of Russia it seems it should not matter. Look at the ones who are the rats, who are the traitors, aren’t they ethnic Russians that from their evil selfish hearts betray their own nation? This is seen readily in the SVR with the illegal’s program. It is also seen in the decreasing number of conscripts for the army as the educated ones distance themselves from representing their country clandestinely or on the battlefield. Why not screen candidates from foreign countries, observe them carefully over a period of time and when you have seen the right candidate, stretch out your broad hand and pull us out from where we are, whatever part of the world so that those willing may get their career opportunity to serve and protect the nation their belief coincides with, the nation in which their spirit lies.

    This is army of youths contain unbordered capabilities. Having them on your side would be a real asset. So dear intelligence officers who may be reading this, have you reached out to a youth today so they may continue in your footsteps, serve a nation whether theirs or yours? Have you evaluated a candidate? Well tell your commanders, planners and analysts that a number of young recruits are awaiting. Demand that they open the door and the evaluation being. We are knocking and will relentlessly do so until you by whatever means open the doors for us.

    Cheers and Regards yes sir

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:43 am

    I think I played counterstrike with some of those people in the late 1990s... Smile

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think I played counterstrike with some of those people in the late 1990s... Smile

    I doubt its the same agegroup pirat

    In the 90's we may have at most been 6-7 years.
    PS- I mean what I say, so don't take me as a joker as I was very serious in what i said.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:10 am

    When I was growing up we were fed all the "west" is centre of civilisation, and technology is the core of evolution and development.

    We still pretty much used the western stick measure of civilisation... the west is the first world, and the commies were the second world and all the other countries were the third world.

    These days, i think with the availability of the internet where people can talk to people from the other side of the planet the western propaganda doesn't work so well.

    Those poor uneducated Africans that have famines every year that need western aid... you realise that it is more a case of corrupt governments in Africa that are the core of the problem, and western aid of food just makes it impossible for local farmers to make a living when they are competing with free stuff, so they all end up with their hands out.

    Young people of today are not just walking out of school and into jobs... and it is not because robots have taken their jobs, it is because big powerful global corporations use cheap third world labour, or in teh case of China second world labour where workers have no rights and problems disappear with a small bribe to a local official.

    I think younger people are more aware of how the wealth of the west came from its colonial roots and its continued use of violence to control resources is getting harder and harder for the corporate controlled western media to hide.

    I think it is a good thing that young people are becoming aware that Soviet propaganda had nothing on western propaganda, and that so many of my generation still believe government officials when they say they are interested in peace and stability and democracy.

    Iran is a stable democracy... unlike Libya, or Bahrain or Egypt for that matter.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:18 am

    GarryB wrote:When I was growing up we were fed all the "west" is centre of civilisation, and technology is the core of evolution and development.

    We still pretty much used the western stick measure of civilisation... the west is the first world, and the commies were the second world and all the other countries were the third world.

    These days, i think with the availability of the internet where people can talk to people from the other side of the planet the western propaganda doesn't work so well.

    Those poor uneducated Africans that have famines every year that need western aid... you realise that it is more a case of corrupt governments in Africa that are the core of the problem, and western aid of food just makes it impossible for local farmers to make a living when they are competing with free stuff, so they all end up with their hands out.

    Young people of today are not just walking out of school and into jobs... and it is not because robots have taken their jobs, it is because big powerful global corporations use cheap third world labour, or in teh case of China second world labour where workers have no rights and problems disappear with a small bribe to a local official.

    I think younger people are more aware of how the wealth of the west came from its colonial roots and its continued use of violence to control resources is getting harder and harder for the corporate controlled western media to hide.

    I think it is a good thing that young people are becoming aware that Soviet propaganda had nothing on western propaganda, and that so many of my generation still believe government officials when they say they are interested in peace and stability and democracy.

    Iran is a stable democracy... unlike Libya, or Bahrain or Egypt for that matter.
    My friend I agree with you its good. Now what good is it if intelligence agencies can't use it? What good is if intelligence agenices wouldn't help them imporve on their efforts, make them more skilled and make them part of the community.Until they do so its will remain good, and good is not suitable in a 21st century society. I hope Vlad.having served in a recon. detachment could help out or anyone else from the itelligence community and respond to my post earlier on why there is lack of opportunity or doors per say for youths to join the itelligence agencies

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:31 am

    I suspect a lot of Cops have a low opinion of people in general because a lot of their work puts them in direct contact with criminals.

    I rather suspect that many who joined the intelligence organisations of their own countries probably had a few ideological bubbles burst from their experiences on the job.

    I would think that it would be easier to recruit younger more cynical people as they already know the truth... morality is nice but being rich is better so controlling the worlds resources is rather more important than being right or always doing the right thing.

    Problem with my generation and those before me was that morality was supposed to mean something and having your state department talk about Chinese treatment of political prisoners while you sit in a helo in some country in central or south america while two prisoners are next to you... one in a total body cast and unable to move with a few metal chains tied around him for weight so when you throw him out of the helo the other prisoner knows you mean business and will tell you everything... before you shoot him and throw him out too... well you kinda think that perhaps the US state department is wrong and the US and China have more in common than anyone realises... Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:24 pm

    While googling just came across this

    Putin visiting new GRU HQ

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:33 am

    I thought it was news... till I saw the date...

    2006?

    And reading it...

    I wondered if they had thought about the children's neurological center that could have been built under the national health project with the same money in the same building.

    And if the US gave up just two of its 11 odd carrier groups the money they would have saved could have ended world hunger.

    How many children could the US save with the 14 billion dollars their latest nuclear powered aircraft carrier is going to cost them?

    That is two dollars for every human on the planet!!!

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    The Final Demise Of The Military Intelligence Directorate (GRU) ?

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:33 am

    There have been massive downsizing of the GRU in the past years for "military reforms". Resulting in these "reforms" have been :
    1. Fight over its agent and "field officers" networks
    2. Closing of its foreign intelligence bases like in Lordes Cuba and In Vietnam
    3. The transfer of ObrSpN brigades into VDV recon. brigades and army recon. and navy
    4. Replacement of GRU chiefs and heads with FSB "Alpha" operators
    5. Special operations forces of the ObrSpN detachments and elite direct action operators transferred to Vympel and Alpha in FSB and SVR.
    6. Lack of moral
    7. Phasing out of high ranking GRU officials
    8. Closing and auction of the newly built GRU headquaters in MOSCOW and the closing of training bases in Samara etc
    9. SIGINT and COMINT divisions now under command of Defence ministry.
    So what are the likely causes?
    The following are some speculative reasons:
    1. Politics- The FSB heads and the "siloviki" want totalitarian control of what was the worlds largest intel. agency
    2. Personal Gain- Corrupt officials within the GRU putting pockets first before country and their organization
    3.Change in russian foreign policiy- Russia doesnt have to pursue global hegemony,is reluctant to engage in international conflicts
    4. Greater antiterror role- more focus is need on counterterrorist russia's only real threat at this moment
    5.End of the cold war- GRU is not need as a shock force to fight NATO, sabouteers only needed for regional conflicts
    6.Professional and contract army- gru commandoes were conscripts, trained for 1 year and then put into battle(some say 5 years for ObrSpN operator), conscripts leave and then forget what they learnt.
    7.Poor performance???? - From my knowledge they performed the best amongst all forces in Astan, chechnya, georgia(22obrSpN rescued VDV peacekeepers), some folks say they are conscripted, poorly trained,shadow of their soviet past, and never battle ready, thus suffering high casualties

    Resulting Consepuences:
    1.Less capable russian wartime capability
    2. Degradation of russian intelligence gathering
    How will NATO see this?
    I haven't studied the situation and i am not familar with the current state of the russian armed forces and the progress of the reforms. This is all just speculation. dunno I hope members on this forum will distinguish the true from the false, and make a better conclusion.

    Regards and cheers,
    gloriousfatherland



    Last edited by gloriousfatherland on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : have to haven't)

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:50 am

    gloriousfatherland wrote:There have been massive downsizing of the GRU in the past years for "military reforms". Resulting in these "reforms" have been :
    1. Fight over its agent and "field officers" networks
    2. Closing of its foreign intelligence bases like in Lordes Cuba and In Vietnam
    3. The transfer of ObrSpN brigades into VDV recon. brigades and army recon. and navy
    4. Replacement of GRU chiefs and heads with FSB "Alpha" operators
    5. Special operations forces of the ObrSpN detachments and elite direct action operators transferred to Vympel and Alpha in FSB and SVR.
    6. Lack of moral
    7. Phasing out of high ranking GRU officials
    8. Closing and auction of the newly built GRU headquaters in MOSCOW and the closing of training bases in Samara etc
    9. SIGINT and COMINT divisions now under command of Defence ministry.
    So what are the likely causes?
    The following are some speculative reasons:
    1. Politics- The FSB heads and the "siloviki" want totalitarian control of what was the worlds largest intel. agency
    2. Personal Gain- Corrupt officials within the GRU putting pockets first before country and their organization
    3.Change in russian foreign policiy- Russia doesnt have to pursue global hegemony,is reluctant to engage in international conflicts
    4. Greater antiterror role- more focus is need on counterterrorist russia's only real threat at this moment
    5.End of the cold war- GRU is not need as a shock force to fight NATO, sabouteers only needed for regional conflicts
    6.Professional and contract army- gru commandoes were conscripts, trained for 1 year and then put into battle(some say 5 years for ObrSpN operator), conscripts leave and then forget what they learnt.
    7.Poor performance???? - From my knowledge they performed the best amongst all forces in Astan, chechnya, georgia(22obrSpN rescued VDV peacekeepers), some folks say they are conscripted, poorly trained,shadow of their soviet past, and never battle ready, thus suffering high casualties

    Resulting Consepuences:
    1.Less capable russian wartime capability
    2. Degradation of russian intelligence gathering
    How will NATO see this?
    I have studied the situation and i am not familar with the current state of the russian armed forces and the progress of the reforms. This is all just speculation. dunno I hope members on this forum will distinguish the true from the false, and make a better conclusion.

    Regards and cheers,
    gloriousfatherland


    The one part of the reforms that I am deeply, deeply opposed to.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 am

    I have read that Putin prefers FSB over any other intelligence agency.

    So FSB is turning out to be KGB with all powers vested in it , some what of single monolothic agency reminiscent of USSR KGB days.

    GRU is one quality agency but seems reforms have diluted it.

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:05 pm

    Guess this is appropriate thread, my uncle was in KGB (then FSB) until early 2000s, retired at that point, not the lowest rank either. What I found curious though is he did (among other things) a LOT of field work during the Chechen wars, and not just presidential/other guard duties.

    Never really asked him about it before, wasn't that interested back in the day, plus did not exactly volunteer information :p .

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:01 am

    War usually leads to people seeing things they would normally never see, and do things they would normally never do, and of course lose friends and comrades.

    The reluctance to talk is often very common because much of it I doubt they want to remember let alone share and burden others... I have never had the experience but I am sure that in such a stressful situations I might do and feel things I am not proud of later... whether they were honourable or not... I would like to think I would do the right thing for my country and my fellow soldiers... but without being put in that situation I really don't know.

    I think I would actually have trouble killing someone...

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:45 am

    GarryB wrote:

    I think I would actually have trouble killing someone...

    No shame in that. In all honesty I don't think I could ever hold a gun up to the back of sombody's head while they're tied up and pull the trigger. At 300 m when you can't see their face, well, I don't know that's different. I actually have a friend who served in army recon over in Iraq and Afghanistan. He survived two IED attacks, and went through some other messed up stuff that to this day he still won't talk about. He's got PTSD so bad that whenever he hears a loud popping sound such as a balloon getting popped next to him he goes into "combat mode" where he basically gets behind the nearest thing possible and starts shouting orders at the top of his lungs. Some times it'll take us ours to get him out of it. War isn't for everybody No

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:58 am

    TR1 wrote:Guess this is appropriate thread, my uncle was in KGB (then FSB) until early 2000s, retired at that point, not the lowest rank either. What I found curious though is he did (among other things) a LOT of field work during the Chechen wars, and not just presidential/other guard duties.

    Never really asked him about it before, wasn't that interested back in the day, plus did not exactly volunteer information :p .

    welcome your uncle to the forum . Let him elighten us ....Intelligence community have my utmost respekt ...These guys are real real real heroes...You live to be like these folks.

    FSB presently is so large. There are even FSB border gard units, regional units etc, not just in Moscow.I'm sure in the chechen war they were pretty involved prior to the 2000 campaign and post.Rats (wahabbi terrorists) have lots of nests. Some hawks knows where these nests are and maybe even in close proximity to them. So give em a litte food and they will tell you everything you need to know

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    Re: Russian Intelligence Services: News & Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:54 am

    I remember watching a documentary narrated by I think he was a British comedian and staunch pacifist, and he looked at the statistics of past wars, it was absolutely fascinating.

    The stats from early wars like WWI and WWII was that except for crew served weapons where you aimed at areas that might not even be visible to you, the situations where you looked down weapon sights and saw the target and chose to pull the trigger they believe only 2% of the population fired. Even in Vietnam it was believed that many soldiers simply fired in the direction of the enemy... an enemy they often couldn't see.

    The documentary stated that after looking at these stats the military put together a training system to make shooting people mechanical and automatic so the soldiers would aim and shoot at targets to kill.

    First they tried desensitising where they strapped people into chairs and showed them hour after hour of violent and gory photos mixed in with normal daily life photos with things on their eyelids so they couldn't look away... it didn't work.

    The narrator was then taken through a shooting program where he was taught to snap shoot at targets and after going through that he felt that if put in the right situation he could shoot someone, which is reflected in the stats for soldiers who have done that sort of training.

    The real problem, unfortunately is that while the Army poured huge resources into finding ways to make soldiers kill in combat, they neglected the result, which is someone trained to kill, who probably has killed, going back to normal life afterwards.

    Anyway getting a bit off topic.

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