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62 posters
Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
LMFS- Posts : 5111
Points : 5107
Join date : 2018-03-03
http://www.npkb.ru/html/varan.html
Isos- Posts : 11379
Points : 11347
Join date : 2015-11-06
With that many aircraft on baord it's hardly going to carry anything else.
What are the other 2 ships on the picture ?
What are the other 2 ships on the picture ?
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
I kinda dig this Varan concept.
Scaled comparison by Charly015 shows the angled deck is nearly same size as K
Small forward island precludes designing the starboard cat for simultaneous use with landing ops but provides a big unobstructed deck park aft which should make for much more efficient deck handling/prep vs K.
Also extra deck park on port outside the angled deck fed by its own lift.
The lifts seem weirdly small at first but K lifts are actually much bigger than they strictly need to be (designed assuming K would take bigger planes like Yak-44 later?)
So you can save a bunch of weight, deck & hangar area by scaling them down to match the stuff its actually going to fly.
I'm not so keen on being entirely unarmed as here but looking at the family concept
The LHD variant on left has Pantsir-Ms covering each corner in positions that could be matched with minor rework of the Varan
Scaled comparison by Charly015 shows the angled deck is nearly same size as K
Small forward island precludes designing the starboard cat for simultaneous use with landing ops but provides a big unobstructed deck park aft which should make for much more efficient deck handling/prep vs K.
Also extra deck park on port outside the angled deck fed by its own lift.
The lifts seem weirdly small at first but K lifts are actually much bigger than they strictly need to be (designed assuming K would take bigger planes like Yak-44 later?)
So you can save a bunch of weight, deck & hangar area by scaling them down to match the stuff its actually going to fly.
I'm not so keen on being entirely unarmed as here but looking at the family concept
The LHD variant on left has Pantsir-Ms covering each corner in positions that could be matched with minor rework of the Varan
LMFS likes this post
PapaDragon- Posts : 13372
Points : 13414
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
- Post n°529
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
PapaDragon Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:52 pm
LMFS wrote:...The key: it is not a carrier, but an UDK!
Good, having a backup function in an age when carriers are becoming more and more obsolete is a smart move
Isos wrote:...What are the other 2 ships on the picture ?
Red one is some kind of logistics vessel and all seem to be variation of the Lider icebreaker
One next to it looks like a hospital ship, it has large passenger compartment, helideck and not much else
One on the right is obviously hospital ship version of LHD on the left
hoom wrote:I'm not so keen on being entirely unarmed as here but looking at the family concept
The LHD variant on left has Pantsir-Ms covering each corner in positions that could be matched with minor rework of the Varan
I doubt that final version of anything will be unarmed but drawing weapons on a product for which deck space is main sales pitch is kinda redundant especially since you don't know which weapons customer will ask for down the road
AlexDineley- Posts : 3
Points : 3
Join date : 2021-02-28
- Post n°530
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
AlexDineley Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:21 pm
Ideally Russia should operate 4 carriers, 1 for each fleet.
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Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2554
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Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
- Post n°531
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Rodion_Romanovic Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:20 pm
AlexDineley wrote:Ideally Russia should operate 4 carriers, 1 for each fleet.
Yeah, the Caspian sea would definitely need a carrier...
Jokes apart. 4 carriers (2 for each of the large fleets (pacific and northern fleet)) would be the ideal number, but even three in total could be enough to ensure that an any given time one is always available for operations, while another could be used for training (maybe even the same kutznetov) and the last could be in maintenance.
Isos- Posts : 11379
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Join date : 2015-11-06
That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.
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LMFS- Posts : 5111
Points : 5107
Join date : 2018-03-03
Isos wrote:That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.
You mean the Chinese troll that was not Chinese?
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13372
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Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
- Post n°534
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
PapaDragon Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:21 pm
LMFS wrote:Isos wrote:That's the chinese troll again with a new account. No need to answer.
You mean the Chinese troll that was not Chinese?
OG 404
Considering how long back he goes I dare to guess he might even be one of the folks from the pre-14 Butthurt Belt
LMFS likes this post
Backman- Posts : 2651
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- Post n°535
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Backman Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:16 pm
Isos wrote:Varan is too small. They put no weapons on it so no radar and FCS.
Adding another 30m wouldn't be bad.
It's too much compact. On the picture it's easy to draw 24 aircraft but in operation I doubt it could have more than 10 on the bridge. Not to mention that high intensity operations would be complicated by the recovery being impossible when plane takes off. Not only do the catapult precent that but they would also oblige sailors and plabes to move around the landing zone.
IMO it's as good as the indian carrier, pretty bad. But the design looks good and the island is small and good looking. Some pantsir on the side should be added.
Todays carriers are just for power projection and bombing failed states. It doesn't have to be tooled right up and ready for WW3.
Peter the Great and some 22160 patrol ships can escort it.
Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:
Canards. It has canards
Last edited by Backman on Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
LMFS- Posts : 5111
Points : 5107
Join date : 2018-03-03
- Post n°536
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
LMFS Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:45 pm
Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:
https://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/10/rusia-desarrollara-un-avion-vtol.html?showComment=1614539144369#c994175715083318186
https://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/10/rusia-desarrollara-un-avion-vtol.html?showComment=1614539144369#c994175715083318186
Isos- Posts : 11379
Points : 11347
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°537
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Isos Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 pm
Shipbuilders don't have access to fighter project that are barely started.
This VTOL is just an illustration made on a design software to show that the shop can carry such planes.
Nothing interesting at all.
This VTOL is just an illustration made on a design software to show that the shop can carry such planes.
Nothing interesting at all.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13372
Points : 13414
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
- Post n°538
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
PapaDragon Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:01 am
LMFS wrote:Charly015 realised an interesting detail on the Varan model:
https://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/10/rusia-desarrollara-un-avion-vtol.html?showComment=1614539144369#c994175715083318186
It's a single engine version of Su-33 designed for Kuznetzov in the late 80s/early 90s
Can't remember the name but it was excellent idea, two would fit in the place of one double engined plane both horizontally and vertically
Prototype was built and ready for test flight but as everything else back then it went tits up when plug was pulled
mnztr- Posts : 2845
Points : 2883
Join date : 2018-01-21
- Post n°539
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
mnztr Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:04 am
limb wrote:One consideration against a light carrier like the 45000ton Varan is the power needed to use the electromagnetic catapult. I dont know if power miniaturization and capacitor tech has gone far enough, and capacitors for it will take a lot of space, and on a small carrier space is at a premium. Also the larger the carrier is, the more powerful and rapid charging the catapult so that would improve loadout capabilities and sortie rate.
The power required for emals is not very much, at most 70 KWh per launch. They do not use electronic capacitors but flywheels to store the energy. It is much, much less energy then a steam catapult.
GarryB- Posts : 39671
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°540
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:28 pm
It's a single engine version of Su-33 designed for Kuznetzov in the late 80s/early 90s
No, that was a trainer light fighter proposed by Sukhoi.... note the two seats...
The fact that the model has planes with canards suggests it predates the Su-57s with more sophisticated control surfaces with the advantages of canards but without their problems.
I remember seeing mockups and models of Soviet carriers in the early 1980s that had MiG-23s on them because at the time the model was made that is the standard fighter that was expected to be on it.
This model perhaps came from the 1990s or early 2000s as the projected LMFS or what they thought it would look like... as mentioned... this carrier is a development of a ship design bureau... they will get models of potential future designs but no secret information that has not been proven and made part of the design yet.
At best they will have dimensions and weights and basic performance figures which they will use to design their ships and deck lifts and hangars...
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limb- Posts : 1550
Points : 1576
Join date : 2020-09-17
is there any news if Russian EM catapults are ready?
Backman- Posts : 2651
Points : 2665
Join date : 2020-11-11
- Post n°542
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Backman Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:51 am
Many of the new Russian ship designs have this look. According to this video, it is a more efficient design. This favors the Varan concept. Which does look like one of the new nuclear ice breakers.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
Points : 5907
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°543
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Tsavo Lion Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:51 pm
MAPO MiG 412 project model: https://www.turbosquid.com/ru/3d-models/mig-412-fighter-3d-obj/398384
..Moscow desperately needs more smaller ships and especially icebreakers rather than any single large prestige vessel.
Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized
..Moscow desperately needs more smaller ships and especially icebreakers rather than any single large prestige vessel.
Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:33 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
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lancelot- Posts : 2872
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- Post n°544
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
lancelot Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:06 am
Tsavo Lion wrote:Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized
You have to laugh at these US military anal-ysts. So Russia does not have the money to build carriers, yet the UK has two? Give me a break.
Just look at a map.
I do think a carrier like Storm is way, way over spec for what a country like Russia needs, but I could easily see Russia having four carriers, two in the North, and another two in the East quite easily if they wanted to. I think two nuclear powered carriers is the bare minimum they will build.
GarryB and Hole like this post
GarryB- Posts : 39671
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- Post n°545
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
GarryB Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:04 pm
Russia is already building significant numbers of ice breakers of all types, and the second link Jamestown institute... please...
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
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Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°546
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Tsavo Lion Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:55 pm
Sure they can revive the Buran with An-225 for it (1 is unfinished in Ukraine) too, but as with them, CV/Ns r not a priority before the last ship & sub r ready for their CBGs to be formed 1st.
If Russia overspends on her VMF & breaks apart like the USSR 30 years ago, her CV/Ns will end up sold/scrapped like those Kiev/Kuz. class TAVKRs.
If Russia overspends on her VMF & breaks apart like the USSR 30 years ago, her CV/Ns will end up sold/scrapped like those Kiev/Kuz. class TAVKRs.
Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Backman- Posts : 2651
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Join date : 2020-11-11
- Post n°547
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Backman Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:37 pm
Tsavo Lion wrote:MAPO MiG 412 project model: https://www.turbosquid.com/ru/3d-models/mig-412-fighter-3d-obj/398384
..Moscow desperately needs more smaller ships and especially icebreakers rather than any single large prestige vessel.
Moscow’s Plans for New Kind of Aircraft Carrier Unlikely to Be Realized
From your link :
"Russia does not have money even for one aircraft carrier” let alone a new fleet."
This is pure unadulterated propaganda bullshit. Russia has more FX reserves (money) than India and yet India is operating one carrier and building a second. Yet you will NEVER hear these same propaganda rags pout about India "not having the money for even one aircraft carrier, let alone a whole fleet"
Why ? Because most of these outfits are in the anti Russia bullshit business. And not the real geopolitical analysis business.
Edit. There's also France with one carrier and the UK with 2. Both of which have less reserves than Russia does.
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5953
Points : 5907
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°548
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
Tsavo Lion Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:38 pm
She may have the $ for even 5 CVNs, but not with most of the other ships, subs & planes that must be built 1st.
The gov. can't demand sacrifices from its people to catch & overtake the West as during Stalin & Khrushchev eras.
The gov. can't demand sacrifices from its people to catch & overtake the West as during Stalin & Khrushchev eras.
GarryB- Posts : 39671
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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- Post n°549
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
GarryB Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:09 am
Sure they can revive the Buran with An-225 for it (1 is unfinished in Ukraine) too, but as with them,
Those two are dead projects.
There is no reason to revive either of them except conceptually... there will be a new Russian shuttle but will likely be rather different from Buran, though Buran was the best shuttle design so far from any country. The new shuttle design will benefit from an An-225 like aircraft but that will most likely be Slon based.
CV/Ns r not a priority before the last ship & sub r ready for their CBGs to be formed 1st.
A new CV or CVN will take a minimum of 10 years from laying down to being operational so they will not be waiting for the last ship it will operate with is built first.
They need a lot more experience with new weapons and sensors and aircraft and systems before it is time to start looking at a new CVN design.
If Russia overspends on her VMF & breaks apart like the USSR 30 years ago, her CV/Ns will end up sold/scrapped like those Kiev/Kuz. class TAVKRs.
The Russian military budget will never become big enough to break Russia... a conventional military is useful but it is nukes that keep her safe and they are relatively cheap. certainly very cost effective.
This is pure unadulterated propaganda bullshit. Russia has more FX reserves (money) than India and yet India is operating one carrier and building a second. Yet you will NEVER hear these same propaganda rags pout about India "not having the money for even one aircraft carrier, let alone a whole fleet"
More importantly the US is getting buddy buddy with India to play them off against China, so obviously they are going to way India to buy lots of their old cast off ships to "boost" them to the point where they think they can match China... so we are talking about getting India to buy trillions of dollars of old carriers and ships and aircraft and helicopters from the US...
I would call it grooming really, but India is a country and not a child... can't tell them what to do... but they should look at what the US did for Pakistan against India and they were best buddy allies, but now economics say 1.2 billion Indians buying jeans and fast food... of course they are going to switch sides... they do that all the time.
She may have the $ for even 5 CVNs, but not with most of the other ships, subs & planes that must be built 1st.
The gov. can't demand sacrifices from its people to catch & overtake the West as during Stalin & Khrushchev eras.
The Russian military are working well within their budgets and their budgets are not even nearly damaging the Russian economy, in fact production is probably rather good for the Russian economy as a whole.
mnztr- Posts : 2845
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- Post n°550
Re: Future Russian Aircraft Carriers and Deck Aviation. #2
mnztr Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:01 am
PapaDragon wrote:LMFS wrote:Isos wrote:UK operated the exocet. They had all the information they needed.
French engineers that were there to maintain french stuff on the other hand helped Argentina to adapt its ship launched exocet on super etandard.
It is known that the French threw Argentina under the bus with the Exocet. I guess they were not interested in a wave of UK-sponsored decolonization efforts on their overseas territories...
Still doesn't change the fact that Argentina was just a couple of faulty bombs away from magnificent victory
And that biggest kill of the war was scored by a UK submarine
Coastal aviation and submarines, magical combo
A couple of properly fused bombs and better maintained torpedos and it would have been carnage for the British.
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