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    Gorbachev has passed away

    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:44 am

    Putin will not attend Gorbachevs funeral. I'm probably at odds with everyone else on this but i think Putin should go. It's just not consistent for him not to go.

    Russians are always pragmatic and nuanced about their complex history. But all of that goes out the window with Gorbachev. I haven't seen a single nuanced take about him anywhere since he died. As if it's all his fault. Even though we have Yeltsin and a million other things going on. Not fair imo.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:48 am



    Putin already paid his respects.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:50 am

    George1 wrote:the break-up came from inside, the KGB. It would be very naive fro anyone to believe that only ONE MAN destroyed a state like USSR

    Gorbachev is just a figurehead for the blame. Everything is far far more complicated than that.

    What was he supposed to do ? Assassinate Yeltsin ? Fight a civil war , USSR vs Russia ?

    I think all the blame is put on Gorbachev because Yeltsin somewhat redeemed himself by appointing Putin.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:59 am

    Gorbie should have prevented the republic party elites from seizing power. Yeltsin is more reviled than Gorbie so your argument does not hold up.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:04 pm

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/gorbachev-instead-of-an-obituary/
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    Post  Firebird Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:01 pm

    Backman wrote:Putin will not attend Gorbachevs funeral. I'm probably at odds with everyone else on this but i think Putin should go. It's just not consistent for him not to go.

    Russians are always pragmatic and nuanced about their complex history. But all of that goes out the window with Gorbachev. I haven't seen a single nuanced take about him anywhere since he died. As if it's all his fault. Even though we have Yeltsin and a million other things going on. Not fair imo.

    When I was younger I thought more about Yeltsin/the Americans etc as the cause of the problems, infact the disaster.

    But the more I read, the more I began to focus on Gobshitechev.

    Ultimately he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
    I believe he knew what Yeltsin and all the rest would do.

    I don't know how accurate the Stalkerzone article is.
    But Gobshitechev's behaviour in the decades post the USSR really show him up to be an utter traitor, a destroyer of a nation.
    Fortunately, that nation is now building itself back up again.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:12 pm

    He created the shadow market which in turn created the oligarchs of the 90´s.

    The part about the "export" of money was new to me.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:36 pm

    Firebird wrote:When I was younger I thought more about Yeltsin/the Americans etc as the cause of the problems, infact the disaster.

    But the more I read, the more I began to focus on Gobshitechev.

    Ultimately he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
    I believe he knew what Yeltsin and all the rest would do.

    I don't know how accurate the Stalkerzone article is.
    But Gobshitechev's behaviour in the decades post the USSR really show him up to be an utter traitor, a destroyer of a nation.
    Fortunately, that nation is now building itself back up again.

    Agree, it was him that destroyed the USSR, Yeltsin and his comprador maggots just took the spoils
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:00 pm

    Painting Gorbachev as some sort of mastermind is ridiculous

    He was simply outsmarted and outmaneuvered, it's as simple as that.

    For those interested, there is the Nazarbaev interview from last December when he describes the dissolution of the USSR and all the exchanges between Yeltsin and Gorbachev and the various steps (or lack of in the case of Gorby) taken by the two.

    https://smotrim.ru/video/2365975

    Unfortunately haven't found an English-language version

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    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:29 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:Lol what???

    Yeah you are right.
    Guy forgot about 100k (as some add 250k) deaths due to wars that started at each end of the falling empire.
    A great legacy I would say.

    Demographic indicators show the disappearance of about 85 million human lives in the Eastern Bloc as a result of the collapse of the USSR. These are victims of supermortality, falling birth rates, victims of crimes and military conflicts, victims of economic catastrophe and falling living standards. If the population growth trend that operated in the eighties continued (by this time the demographic transition to a developed society had already been completed), 85 million more people would now live in the Eastern Bloc countries.
    This is Gorbachev's true legacy. Of course, this is not only his responsibility, but it is HIS responsibility.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:46 pm

    Oh, that is an extremely overrated exaggeration.
    Sure we can add each and any case of a heart attack and blame Gorby for it, but hell ... give me a break.
    Guy had tons of shit under the nails, no need to add more, as he is dead already.
    You Russkie should really focus on using all the benefits our ancestors granted to you.
    You have conquered a 20% of a global landmass.
    Just stay focused, and use it wisely.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:55 am

    Gorbie does not have to be a mastermind.   He was, however, doing all the right things to break up the USSR.   Setting up a quasi-market allowing the crooks
    to maneuver themselves into position is a key achievement.   Soviet republics should have been at most types of provinces and not countries in waiting.   Ethnic
    rights are not equivalent to having all the structures of a state and having all the decisions be made by the local government.    None of the "countries" in the USSR
    ever existed as countries.   Ukraine did not even exist within its Soviet borders.   Belorus is not a country but a local accent.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:37 am

    kvs wrote:Gorbie does not have to be a mastermind.   He was, however, doing all the right things to break up the USSR.   Setting up a quasi-market allowing the crooks
    to maneuver themselves into position is a key achievement.   Soviet republics should have been at most types of provinces and not countries in waiting.   Ethnic
    rights are not equivalent to having all the structures of a state and having all the decisions be made by the local government.    None of the "countries" in the USSR
    ever existed as countries.   Ukraine did not even exist within its Soviet borders.   Belorus is not a country but a local accent.

    The "naivety" argument is an insult to the intelligence. All those strategies implemented by Gorbi are exactly what you do to destroy a country, one on top of the other and applied non-stop. That is Statesmanship 101, know even by the most retarded. Coincidences DO NOT exist in politics, simple as that.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:07 pm

    The institutional rot started way before Gorbachev went into power.
    Just look at the trajectory of people like Gaidar.

    Gorbachev accelerated the implosion when he pushed away the older structure and older people with Perestroika.

    The economic changes Gorbachev made were pure cancer to the system and the political changes were little better.
    Yeltsin made it worse. You don't just change from command control economy to free market with a snap of the fingers. It does not work like that.
    The Chinese made this over the course of decades with careful slow adjustment of prices and slowly loosening price controls.

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:10 am

    https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/09/02/gorbachev-death-of-an-american-hero/

    Gorbachev: Death of an “American” Hero

    on September 2, 2022

    By Dr. Matthew Crosston


    On Tuesday, August 30th, Mikhail Gorbachev quietly passed away at the august age of 91. His death marks the end of a curious and conflicted path for the last leader of the Soviet Union. Almost all of mainstream Western media spent the days immediately following his death in one of two ways: either commenting on his legendary heroic status in the West that remained unblemished right up until his very last breath or on the somewhat muted, if still respectful, offering of condolences (but with no official day of mourning or formal state funeral) by President Vladimir Putin. In a way, these two emphases by Western media illustrates just how much of a complicated figure Gorbachev was and why he was destined to never be as popular in his own land as in the land of his once vaunted “enemy.”

    Most old-school Sovietologists in America claim to admire Gorbachev because it was his decision in the late 1980s that basically allowed “eastern Europe to escape Soviet communist control.” It is bitterly humorous that such accomplished American academics and diplomats do not seem to notice how the very structure of that last sentence is obviously degrading to Russian elites. It also did no domestic reputational favors for Gorbachev himself that he was able to subsequently live very comfortably off of earnings made in the West delivering speeches that would basically solidify and affirm that Western impression (at his death he had an estimated net worth of 5 million USD, an unattainable figure for 99% of the Russian population today). This is not so much a criticism of Gorbachev making money. It was rather quickly evident in the 1990s that Boris Yeltsin was never going to let him regain a relevant political foothold in Russia or return to political power in any proper and formal way. But it is a lament that Gorbachev was either oblivious to or indifferent about the fact that this profiting was based on his willingness to confirm that the best path for countries across Eastern Europe was to, ostensibly, get as far away as possible from the very country he was leading. In other words, the West was paying Gorbachev in order to praise him for making his own leadership a pariah. After all, “escaping Soviet communist control” quite literally meant in this time period that you were “escaping the Gorbachevian regime” pure and simple. This odd arrangement would ultimately doom Gorbachev at home and lead to one of the most misinterpreted statements made by Putin (misunderstood at least by Western experts).

    Most scholars are quick to claim that Gorbachev began much-needed economic and political reforms when he began “Perestroika” and “Glasnost,” but that the overall state of the Soviet Union at the time was already too far degraded, thus resulting in Gorbachev losing control of his own reforms and leading directly to the calamitous events of 1991, culminating with the formal dissolution of the Soviet Union and Gorbachev being a de facto Supreme Leader with no country to lead. But this analysis glosses over the important contributing factor of American foreign policy, which had by then spent at least two decades pushing very hard to force the Soviet Union to maintain détente and a military balance of strength with the United States. Most fans of Ronald Reagan today proudly crow about how it was their great leader that basically “outspent the Soviet Union into oblivion.” Thus, while it is true Gorbachev ultimately could not keep his hands tightly on the reins of his own reforms, one of the main reasons for that loss of control was the strategic military policy of the Soviet Union’s main rival. And it cannot be underestimated just how impactful this loss of control was for the USSR’s power successor, the Russian Federation.

    While this was the grand time in the West where highly intelligent and respected thinkers talked about “the end of history” and led discussions about how America could best spend the “peace dividend,” both of these pithy phrases were, again, based on the demise of Russian power. The end of history was in reference to the formal end of the Cold War and the understanding that it was democracy that had triumphed definitively over communism. The peace dividend only existed because it was America basically admitting that it now would have billions of free dollars to utilize on other projects since it no longer had to worry about defeating Soviet Russia militarily (ie, because successor Russia was already defeated and therefore irrelevant). Indeed, when the ultimate consequences endured by the Russian Federation throughout the 1990s are viewed objectively (a nightmarish demographic health and standards of living crisis, rife political corruption, rampant economic inequality, and further political reforms that seemed to not only push regular Russians deeper into destitution but also tied Russia into a de facto vassal state to Western powers), it is no wonder why Gorbachev very quickly in this decade became a most unwelcome figure in his own country and spent the majority of his time living and speaking in the West.

    It was these consequences that led to President Putin making the famous statement that is still highlighted in so many American intelligence analyses as “proof” that Russia and America can never be allies: in 2005, when asked about the dissolution of the Soviet Union, he called it the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.” Almost without exception, American experts on Russia have interpreted this as Putin’s secret desire to one day reinvent and reintegrate the Soviet Union (this should sound very familiar to anyone who has paid attention to Western analyses of the current Ukraine conflict). In fact, this is completely wrong-headed and a failure of Western minds to put themselves into the shoes of Russian political elites. Putin has by now spent over two decades, in his estimation, dealing with the consequences of what Gorbachev failed to keep under control and maintain. The loss of Soviet power was nothing for the Russian Federation compared to the political, economic, and humanitarian degradation that followed that loss. Therefore, that “geopolitical catastrophe” is not a wistful fantasy about one day re-creating the Soviet Union. Rather, it is an objective analysis of what the loss of that stability and power did in real terms to the Russian state and its people. And while experts in the West seem reluctant to consider that interpretation, one can be certain that elites in Russia are aware of who they consider to be the reckless architect of that catastrophe: Mikhail Gorbachev.

    History can be a harsh judge. It is highly likely that the moment in time that represented the demise of the Soviet Union would have been too big for any Russian leader. But unfortunately for him, it was Gorbachev who stood in front of that crashing wave. It was clearly too big for him. However, unlike many failed and deposed leaders of former empires, he was allowed a second act that permitted him to live comfortably well beyond the average life expectancy of Russian males today. It was indeed a grand irony that that comfort was founded upon the appreciation of an enemy that was always determined to defeat him. Perhaps then it is not so ironic that Mikhail Gorbachev’s passing has to be considered not so much the death of a Russian statesman as the demise of an “American” hero.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:19 am

    Comparing the way China did it and the Soviet Union did it... in Russia the average worker was thrown to the dogs and got put through the ringer... in the west when a big company takes over a little company... the little company is essentially destroyed and asset stripped and is altered and modified into a little version of the big company selling their old products and old services but in the big company way.

    Never a good experience for the small company.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:33 pm

    More overly simple bluster about the situation and no alternative ideas.

    It was an empire just as rigid as the US empire is now. It is all very fatalistic. No leader is going to change the inevitable course that the US empire is on. It was no different than the USSR.

    If Gorbachev really played hardball with everyone it could very well have turned into a protracted civil war. In the end we'd have the same result with just more destruction.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:32 am

    Imagine the USSR did not collapse in 1991. Iraq invasion of Kuwait happens. Iraq can call Soviet help. What then?
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:27 am

    lancelot wrote:Imagine the USSR did not collapse in 1991. Iraq invasion of Kuwait happens. Iraq can call Soviet help. What then?

    As I recall reading the USSR condemned the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait together with the rest of the UN
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:00 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    lancelot wrote:Imagine the USSR did not collapse in 1991. Iraq invasion of Kuwait happens. Iraq can call Soviet help. What then?

    As I recall reading the USSR condemned the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait together with the rest of the UN

    And that would be much it.
    Iraq was hardly a USSR ally.
    I will remind you, that the occupation of Kuwait was discussed with the US, first of all.
    Saddam get a feedback that it is not US deal.
    And happened because Iraq owed a big cash to them and was in a position to start a massive repayment.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:55 am

    I seem to recall that at the time Saddams officials asked US officials if they minded if he took Kuwaite and the new female official said she didn't think it would be a problem.

    Saddam attacked and the US went apeshit because they thought he was trying to take over Kuwaite and then Saudi Arabia and then all the other bullshit made up nations the UK and the French creates in the 1920s.

    That same US female official was present in Mogadishu in Somalia and help that shit happen too... turn a humanitarian mission into an anti warlord mission and picked the most powerful warlord to fight... and lose to.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:02 pm

    not a surprise he would be shilled

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