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lancelot
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    Russian oligarch yachts

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    limb


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    Post  limb Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:56 pm

    This is a thread to discuss the cost of the yachts of Russian oligarchs. It's also to compare how much oligarchs in Russia spend on building their yachts compared to how much the Russian navy gets funds for building ships and their engines.

    How many yachts are left in Russia? Can the oligarchs get their yachts confiscated? Why did the Russian government never forbid these oligarchs from wasting money on them when those hundreds of millions of dollars could've gone to vessels that Russia actually needs?

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    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:11 pm

    You know what. This is a popular meme right now. But you won't get any money back by capturing these yachts. Resale value of a yacht is pretty low.
    These are status symbols and are typically custom designed for each client. And no one wants a used one.

    Even if you discount the Yeltsin years I think the major problem plaguing the Russian Navy right now was reliance on foreign production. Ukrainian engines, transmissions, and European engines. Then you have the problem with poor productivity in Russian shipyards in general. But I think that is a complex problem. Some lacked infrastructure, some lacked trained personnel, perhaps the ship designs themselves are not amenable to quick production, and then you have the problem of, you guessed it, delays in delivering components to the yard which also cause delays. I mean how long has the Admiral Gorshkov class been delayed because of engine supply issues, or debugging the radar systems in it? Would buying less yatches solve this issue? I doubt it.

    There are also lots of claims of funding issues. But you know what? I would not be surprised if the Russian state did that on purpose to it could purchase these hastily privatized Yeltsin era former Soviet assets back. By starving private yards of contracts, they went bankrupt, and were easily put into the fold of USC.

    So this argument is mostly important from a moral point of view. And I think that is important as well. But let us not mix issues here.
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    Post  George1 Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:06 am

    limb wrote:This is a thread to discuss the cost of the yachts of Russian oligarchs. It's also to compare how much oligarchs in Russia spend on building their yachts compared to how much the Russian navy gets funds for building ships and their engines.

    How many yachts are left in Russia? Can the oligarchs get their yachts confiscated? Why did the Russian government never forbid these oligarchs from wasting money on them when those hundreds of millions of dollars could've gone to vessels that Russia actually needs?


    is this a serious subject for discussion? confused

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:47 am

    I think he is not being serious with the question. To sumarize, all ex-USSR oligarchs, bar few, are worst possible kind of ruthless opportunists that didn't get there due to their honest work and brains. System in Russia favors these people via very low, flat rate tax and by closing their eyes to taking money offshore. Especially, during strong commodity cycles.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:21 am

    All oligarchs world wide are selfish evil people who care more about themselves than their countries or the people in them.

    The Russian government can tell rich Russians what to do just as much as US or UK politicians can... money is power and these people control western politicians.

    How many carrier groups could Beezos afford with his 120 billion personal wealth?

    But then that is his money, so why is that relevant... did you sponsor a tank for the army of the country you live in?

    Besides ironically these yachts and assets being seized are in the west, and most of the Russian oligarchs have already fled Russia to live in the west so they are only Russian oligarchs because that is where they stole their money from.

    It is actually good for Russia that these assets are being seized because it makes ethnically Russian rich people fear having their wealth located in the west because evil western governments can make any accusation they like and steal their property... just say they are friends with Putins gardner and then seize their house and lock their bank accounts.

    This is brilliant for Russia because it means most will try to return their money and wealth back to Russia even if they lose a lot on tax they will keep most of it.

    This is a case of the west being dumber than normal.

    It is like soccer teams... with that Russian selling that British soccer team... hahahaha... he wasn't Russian... that is where the money he stole came from... most of the Russian billionaires got CIA seed money to buy up Soviet state assets like factories etc etc and then asset strip them of anything valuable like machinery and tools, fire the staff and keep their pension funds and then sell it to someone else all for an enormous profit... that is how you get to be a billionaire so easily.

    You have to be a real cold hearted censored because you are essentially destroying the lives of your workers because their pensions are now gone, and many are now also unemployed, but you made a lot of easy money... so you piss off to London and buy a soccer team and they all think you are wonderful... for a dirty ugly Russian...

    I would say take their yachts and their soccer teams and really you should also be doing that to your own 1%s because they have far too much money too... it is obscene.

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    Post  limb Tue May 24, 2022 1:25 am

    lancelot wrote:You know what. This is a popular meme right now. But you won't get any money back by capturing these yachts. Resale value of a yacht is pretty low.
    These are status symbols and are typically custom designed for each client. And no one wants a used one.

    Even if you discount the Yeltsin years I think the major problem plaguing the Russian Navy right now was reliance on foreign production. Ukrainian engines, transmissions, and European engines. Then you have the problem with poor productivity in Russian shipyards in general. But I think that is a complex problem. Some lacked infrastructure, some lacked trained personnel, perhaps the ship designs themselves are not amenable to quick production, and then you have the problem of, you guessed it, delays in delivering components to the yard which also cause delays. I mean how long has the Admiral Gorshkov class been delayed because of engine supply issues, or debugging the radar systems in it? Would buying less yatches solve this issue? I doubt it.

    There are also lots of claims of funding issues. But you know what? I would not be surprised if the Russian state did that on purpose to it could purchase these hastily privatized Yeltsin era former Soviet assets back. By starving private yards of contracts, they went bankrupt, and were easily put into the fold of USC.

    So this argument is mostly important from a moral point of view. And I think that is important as well. But let us not mix issues here.

    I just looked up 2 russian orligarch's yachts, deripaska's clio, and abramovich's eclipse. Both were built in germany by Blohm und Voss and Lurssen respectively. Both are equipped with MTU engines, the ones the Buyans and Karakurts were supposed to have.


    The russian government should threaten these oligrachs and force them to give up their (non-confiscated) yachts to be cut up and their MTU engines taken out.
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 24, 2022 8:12 am

    A better solution for the longer term would be to fund development and production of engines to replace the foreign made engines...

    The usual two pronged approach they applied to other things... a near direct copy to get into production and use quickly but with a team in the background working on a new design from the ground up redesigned to be better in every regard that uses new technology and new materials that can be put into production in 5 to 10 years time that makes the current product look sad.

    The commonality of the copy means you should also be able to make parts and spares and therefore fully support existing platforms using the foreign designed engine, but over time you can retrofit the new engine design to older vessels for testing too.

    Moving forward it is likely that all electric drive systems will become more common so that a new propulsion system can become modular and placed almost anywhere on a ship...
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    Post  lancelot Tue May 24, 2022 9:46 am

    Russia needs a proper program to replace diesel engines in general. Not just military marine diesels but also civilian marine diesels. Probably even rail and truck engines. They had several engine programs but quite often they relied on foreign imports and there is no long range vision of a whole product portfolio.
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    Post  Firebird Tue May 24, 2022 11:41 am

    GarryB wrote:All oligarchs world wide are selfish evil people who care more about themselves than their countries or the people in them.

    The Russian government can tell rich Russians what to do just as much as US or UK politicians can... money is power and these people control western politicians.

    How many carrier groups could Beezos afford with his 120 billion personal wealth?

    But then that is his money, so why is that relevant... did you sponsor a tank for the army of the country you live in?

    Besides ironically these yachts and assets being seized are in the west, and most of the Russian oligarchs have already fled Russia to live in the west so they are only Russian oligarchs because that is where they stole their money from.

    It is actually good for Russia that these assets are being seized because it makes ethnically Russian rich people fear having their wealth located in the west because evil western governments can make any accusation they like and steal their property... just say they are friends with Putins gardner and then seize their house and lock their bank accounts.

    This is brilliant for Russia because it means most will try to return their money and wealth back to Russia even if they lose a lot on tax they will keep most of it.

    This is a case of the west being dumber than normal.

    It is like soccer teams... with that Russian selling that British soccer team... hahahaha... he wasn't Russian... that is where the money he stole came from... most of the Russian billionaires got CIA seed money to buy up Soviet state assets like factories etc etc and then asset strip them of anything valuable like machinery and tools, fire the staff and keep their pension funds and then sell it to someone else all for an enormous profit... that is how you get to be a billionaire so easily.

    You have to be a real cold hearted censored  because you are essentially destroying the lives of your workers because their pensions are now gone, and many are now also unemployed, but you made a lot of easy money... so you piss off to London and buy a soccer team and they all think you are wonderful... for a dirty ugly Russian...

    I would say take their yachts and their soccer teams and really you should also be doing that to your own 1%s because they have far too much money too... it is obscene.

    The topic of oligarchs (Russian, Chinese and Western) is a big one. I meant to do a big post on it, but will have to do so later.

    Roman Abramovich is a complex topic. Most people don't know he is a convicted criminal in Russia. Very much linked to the "Aluminium Wars" of the Yeltsin era.. and many murders.

    Its not clear whether he's actually smart, or "Berezhovsky's tea boy who got lucky" to coin one phrase. Or just a front man for other forces. I suppose there is truth, to some extent in all versions.

    In recent times, Putin has made sure he gave back at least a big chunk of his dubiously sourced fortune.

    Britain had no problem welcoming Roman Abramovich in when he was carrying a giant fortune out of Russia. Despite complaints in Russia (well founded) that they were criminal proceeds.
    More recently, RA somewhat settled his accounts with Russia (altho nowhere near enough)
    Which caused Britain to get shitty with RA and decline his work visa (despite him having invested fortunes in Britain).

    Its ironic that Britain has now started seizing RA's money from Britain.
    Russian oligarchs thought their assets were safe in the West. But it turns out they would have been far safer back in Russia!

    A poetic irony I suppose you could call it.

    Two other points.
    Firstly I notice RA looks incredibly nervous whenever you see him. Its like fear is etched across his face. Strange situation for someone with so many billions.

    Secondly, I noticed a Putin speech at the outbreak of the Ukrainian operation. He looked/sounded very angry at some overseas Russians with money. Saying "they think they are better than us". Its rare for Putin to be angry. I'm not entirely sure who he was referring to. ANd also what might be the repercussions of this. (It wasn't RA BTW).

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