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    Can India catch China?

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    par far

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    Post  par far Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:28 pm

    Can India reach India, in terms of Economic Development, Social Development, Infrastructure Development and living standards?
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    Post  George1 Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:45 pm

    par far wrote:Can India reach India, in terms of Economic Development, Social Development, Infrastructure Development and living standards?

    reach China you mean
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    Post  par far Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:06 am

    George1 wrote:
    par far wrote:Can India reach India, in terms of Economic Development, Social Development, Infrastructure Development and living standards?

    reach China you mean


    Yes.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:27 am

    I would ask a better question.... which new developing economies/cultures can exceed the living standards achieved in the west.... but then you have to ask if the western living standards are to be pegged at the 1950s US of A, or now...

    I would think this would be a goal of most countries or groups of countries striving to become one of the poles in a new multipolar world...

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    Post  RTN Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:21 am

    GarryB wrote:I would ask a better question.... which new developing economies/cultures can exceed the living standards achieved in the west.... but then you have to ask if the western living standards are to be pegged at the 1950s US of A, or now...

    I would think this would be a goal of most countries or groups of countries striving to become one of the poles in a new multipolar world...
    India is a pathetically poor country. It will not be able to catch up with China in the next 100 years. Unlike China, it has hardly made any progress.

    OTOH, China was one of the poorest country till the early 80s, today they have a per capita income at par with Russia.
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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:42 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would ask a better question.... which new developing economies/cultures can exceed the living standards achieved in the west.... but then you have to ask if the western living standards are to be pegged at the 1950s US of A, or now...

    I would think this would be a goal of most countries or groups of countries striving to become one of the poles in a new multipolar world...
    India is a pathetically poor country. It will not be able to catch up with China in the next 100 years. Unlike China, it has hardly made any progress.

    OTOH, China was one of the poorest country till the early 80s, today they have a per capita income at par with Russia.



    One problem that China did not have but has is that the government in India is based on Hindutva, corrupt politicians and a corrupt Bureaucracy.

    In India, since Modi's BJP came into power, if you are in a minority religious group, you can get beaten up for no reason or even be killed. This has picked up, since Modi came into power.

    Also the privation of State owned things have accelerated since Modi came into power, oligarchs like Adani and Ambani have bought all the best sectors.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:59 am

    India is a pathetically poor country. It will not be able to catch up with China in the next 100 years. Unlike China, it has hardly made any progress.

    OTOH, China was one of the poorest country till the early 80s, today they have a per capita income at par with Russia.

    You just contradicted yourself...

    China was a pathetically poor country too and as you admit... when the west started using them as a weapon against the Soviets and also of course a source for cheap labour where high moral labour standards don't apply, China started to boom... well guess what... western investment is going to have to leave China to slow its development (in my view that ship has sailed but the west is arrogant and think it is the presence of western factories that is creating the Chinese economy miracle)... but the west can't return production home.... too expensive, so it will go to Bangledesh or India or both and it will be their chance to develop and grow... of course they can screw it all up and remain poor and broken, but I can be positive can't I?

    China has made amazing progress because it was a backward poor country... like north korea but with more people... lots of western investment in production capacity and very very sensible decisions by the government have allowed amazing growth and development and it is to their credit that they took advantage of the situation for their own benefit.

    India and lots of other countries that are developing can use a hand from China and from Russia and made the same steps forward and drag themselves out of poverty and get some real quality of life. I am not talking charity... it wont cost China and Russia and other countries to do this... it does not hurt Russia that China is getting stronger... it means they can buy more gas and spend more money on Russian resources and products, and it also means Russia can buy Chinese products and not have to make absolutely everything for itself.... which is expensive and a bit of a waste of time most of the time.
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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:45 pm

    par far wrote:
    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would ask a better question.... which new developing economies/cultures can exceed the living standards achieved in the west.... but then you have to ask if the western living standards are to be pegged at the 1950s US of A, or now...

    I would think this would be a goal of most countries or groups of countries striving to become one of the poles in a new multipolar world...
    India is a pathetically poor country. It will not be able to catch up with China in the next 100 years. Unlike China, it has hardly made any progress.

    OTOH, China was one of the poorest country till the early 80s, today they have a per capita income at par with Russia.



    One problem that China did not have but has is that the government in India is based on Hindutva, corrupt politicians and a corrupt  Bureaucracy.

    In India, since Modi's BJP came into power, if you are in a minority religious group, you can get beaten up for no reason or even be killed. This has picked up, since Modi came into power.

    Also the privation of State owned things have accelerated since Modi came into power, oligarchs like Adani and Ambani have bought all the best sectors.


    So Modi is the like a mix of Grobi and Yeltsin. He is a comprador that will help destroy India. We have a fine example what happens when
    you let the oligarchs run loose in the case of Ukraine. Russia saved itself by having a good leader who cracked the whip on these clowns
    and made sure that the fish does not rot form the head.

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    Post  Backman Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:02 pm

    I have nothing against India. But no. Not even close. The US media likes to pump India up and compare it with China because India is a democracy. But the democracy part is part of why India won't catch China.

    China is on a roll that is arguably just as strong if not stronger than the US in the 20's to 60's or the USSR's heyday. China has lots of problems but so did the US and USSR in their runs. There's zero comparison to India. Maybe in 50 years India will get that momentum and have a run. But it's not doing that now.

    Just look at what the Chinese navy is doing compared to India. The type 003 carrier is coming together and it might enter service before the new Indian one.

    Look at the Tejas compared to the J-10 or J-20. India had the chance to cheat on that and stay in the FGFA program. They'd be building su 57's in the Hal plant right now. But they still managed to screw that up too.
    .

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:40 pm

    No, zero possibility. For the simple reason that India is just too big, there is no country left with enough capital to invest in it like the US did to China. Smaller countries, especially in Asia, yes but India, not a bat in hells chance.

    This is on top of the fundamental differences in their cultures already mentioned above.

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    Post  jhelb Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:44 pm

    kvs wrote:So Modi is the like a mix of Grobi and Yeltsin.   He is a comprador that will help destroy India.  
    What more needs to be destroyed in a third world country like India? It's third world world because it is destroyed.

    kvs wrote:Russia saved itself by having a good leader who cracked the whip on these clowns
    and made sure that the fish does not rot form the head.
    Putin in no savior. He is also a creation of the West. Who appointed Putin? That western agent Yelstin.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:52 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Putin in no savior. He is also a creation of the West. Who appointed Putin? That western agent Yelstin.

    Yes but he doesn't seem to have turned out as they expected.

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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:04 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    kvs wrote:So Modi is the like a mix of Grobi and Yeltsin.   He is a comprador that will help destroy India.  
    What more needs to be destroyed in a third world country like India? It's third world world because it is destroyed.

    kvs wrote:Russia saved itself by having a good leader who cracked the whip on these clowns
    and made sure that the fish does not rot form the head.
    Putin in no savior. He is also a creation of the West. Who appointed Putin? That western agent Yelstin.

    That is utterly vapid analysis. Yeltsin did not have a choice as to who to appoint after the March 1999 gang rape of Serbia
    by NATzO. You would have to be totally detached from reality to believe that Yeltsin resigned as president voluntarily
    at the end of 1999. Yeltsin was used to hiring and firing prime ministers of Russia on a whim but ended up firing himself a few
    months after he "appointed" Putin.

    You attribute the successes of Russian politicians to throw of the yoke of NATzO imperialists to machinations by NATzO
    itself. The facts since 1999 speak for themselves and they contradict fully your tinfoil hat inanity.


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    Post  RTN Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:You just contradicted yourself...
    No I didn't. My point was in the last 4, 5 decades China has made enormous economic progress as did other Asian countries like Japan and South Korea.

    Unlike these countries India has hardly made any progress. It remains one of the poorest country in the world. The largest concentration of poor people in the world is not in Africa but in India.

    GarryB wrote:
    India and lots of other countries that are developing can use a hand from China and from Russia and made the same steps forward and drag themselves out of poverty and get some real quality of life.
    Russia doesn't have that kind of money to spare. Its economy is roughly the size of India. Zero cultural similarities with India unlike its close relations with Serbia, Belarus or even Ukraine. China has the money but will never help India. In fact India is considered by China as one of their biggest enemy.

    Russia too is getting close to Pakistan. Already selling military hardware like Mi 17, Kornet ATGM etc to Pakistan. Will soon sign multi billion $$ arms deal with Pakistan.
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    Post  jhelb Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:25 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Yes but he doesn't seem to have turned out as they expected.
    Turned out better than expected. Allowed oligarchs to steal more than $500 billion from Russia and park that stolen money in London and Florida.
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    Post  Backman Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:44 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Yes but he doesn't seem to have turned out as they expected.
    Turned out better than expected. Allowed oligarchs to steal more than $500 billion from Russia and park that stolen money in London and Florida.

    That's bullshit. Russia has elected to have a free floating currency and open capital accounts. This has its benefits and drawbacks.Sure. Some Russians who think the grass is greener can take out their money. And at the same time, anyone can bring in their money. And on net, they obviously have. More money has come in than out. If it didn't, then this wouldn't be possible.

    (the GDP on this chart is nominal and thus wrong. Nominal GDP only accounts for Russia's USD denominated exports. Real GDP is 4 trillion.
    Can India catch China? Uq8oisiskce01

    Russia has the 4th-5th most FX reserves in the world

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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pm

    BTW, here is some more context for all the Putin the NATzO stooge drivel. Yeltsin did not put a single oligarch crook behind bars
    and none of them tried to escape from Russia under his rule. In fact, like rats that invade your house in winter, they were all
    warm and comfy and eating your free food. But Putin "the stooge" put Khodorkovsky the gangster oligarch behind bars and
    would have put Berezovsky there if the latter didn't manage to first flee the country. The law does not act fast like a lynch mob
    although in the case of these maggots it would have been great if a real lynch mob got them first.

    The change in tone of Russia coverage that was evident late into Putin's first term clearly demonstrates that he was no
    stooge. The same media that was singing the praises of Yeltsin, regardless of Chechnya, was pouring excrement over
    Putin after Khodorkovsky the "democracy dissident" was put in jail.

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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:04 pm

    kvs wrote:
    par far wrote:
    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would ask a better question.... which new developing economies/cultures can exceed the living standards achieved in the west.... but then you have to ask if the western living standards are to be pegged at the 1950s US of A, or now...

    I would think this would be a goal of most countries or groups of countries striving to become one of the poles in a new multipolar world...
    India is a pathetically poor country. It will not be able to catch up with China in the next 100 years. Unlike China, it has hardly made any progress.

    OTOH, China was one of the poorest country till the early 80s, today they have a per capita income at par with Russia.



    One problem that China did not have but has is that the government in India is based on Hindutva, corrupt politicians and a corrupt  Bureaucracy.

    In India, since Modi's BJP came into power, if you are in a minority religious group, you can get beaten up for no reason or even be killed. This has picked up, since Modi came into power.

    Also the privation of State owned things have accelerated since Modi came into power, oligarchs like Adani and Ambani have bought all the best sectors.


    So Modi is the like a mix of Grobi and Yeltsin.   He is a comprador that will help destroy India.  We have a fine example what happens when
    you let the oligarchs run loose in the case of Ukraine.   Russia saved itself by having a good leader who cracked the whip on these clowns
    and made sure that the fish does not rot form the head.


    India is in the same place where Russia was in, after the collapse of the USSR. India can change it's name from India to Reliance Ambani and no would notice(Reliance owns almost everything in India.)

    Since Modi came into power, Mukesh Ambani and Gautam Adani have bought everything state owned for pennies. The only big thing that is left is farming, which is why farmers in India are protesting.

    I was visiting India in January 2019, the van I was in stopped at a toll pay stop, our driver payed two fees.

    When we left I asked him why the two fees?

    And he said that one fee goes to pay the cement and other construction supplies for road repairs(I don't know when they repaired the roads, they were in a shitty condition), while the other fee goes to construction workers repairing the roads but what actually happened was one fee went to the government, while the other fee went to Adani construction company(they are responsible for the roads, which were in a shitty condition).

    Our driver said it was just a scam, Adani construction has not done shit in years and the government has turned a blind eye because it got it's fee.


    Last edited by par far on Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:19 pm

    Backman wrote:I have nothing against India. But no. Not even close. The US media likes to pump India up and compare it with China because India is a democracy. But the democracy part is part of why India won't catch China.

    China is on a roll that is arguably just as strong if not stronger than the US in the 20's to 60's or the USSR's heyday. China has lots of problems but so did the US and USSR in their runs. There's zero comparison to India. Maybe in 50 years India will get that momentum and have a run. But it's not doing that now.

    Just look at what the Chinese navy is doing compared to India. The type 003 carrier is coming together and it might enter service before the new Indian one.

    Look at the Tejas compared to the J-10 or J-20. India had the chance to cheat on that and stay in the FGFA program. They'd be building su 57's in the Hal plant right now. But they still managed to screw that up too.
    .


    Agree with everything but the highlighted part, India is not a democracy. India, like the US is a Plutocracy.

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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:22 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Yes but he doesn't seem to have turned out as they expected.
    Turned out better than expected. Allowed oligarchs to steal more than $500 billion from Russia and park that stolen money in London and Florida.


    If this was the cause, Putin would not have thrown Khodorkovsky in jail.

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    Post  par far Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:28 pm

    Backman wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Yes but he doesn't seem to have turned out as they expected.
    Turned out better than expected. Allowed oligarchs to steal more than $500 billion from Russia and park that stolen money in London and Florida.

    That's bullshit. Russia has elected to have a free floating currency and open capital accounts. This has its benefits and drawbacks.Sure. Some Russians who think the grass is greener can take out their money. And at the same time, anyone can bring in their money. And on net, they obviously have. More money has come in than out. If it didn't, then this wouldn't be possible.

    (the GDP on this chart is nominal and thus wrong. Nominal GDP only accounts for Russia's USD denominated exports. Real GDP is 4 trillion.
    Can India catch China? Uq8oisiskce01

    Russia has the 4th-5th most FX reserves in the world


    https://www.stalkerzone.org/20-years-with-putin-achievements/

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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:03 am

    No I didn't. My point was in the last 4, 5 decades China has made enormous economic progress as did other Asian countries like Japan and South Korea.

    Rubbish... in the 1990s most Chinese people didn't own a car... including in the cities...

    I remember a documentary showing some american ass hole sitting in an office building where you could see the street and he pointed out the window and said.... look at all those cars... when he came there in the 1990s it was all bicycles... but now in the cities it is cars and vans and trucks and busses... and his goal was to get people in urban areas to buy cars too because he worked for a western car company... the interview was in the early 2000s.

    Gee I wonder where all the pollution in China suddenly came from... perhaps from cars?

    Unlike these countries India has hardly made any progress. It remains one of the poorest country in the world. The largest concentration of poor people in the world is not in Africa but in India.

    That is right, but China and Africa show things can change.... Russia shows with the wrong people in charge even a superpower can have economic collapses every other year and be strip mined by big western companies if you let them... but Russia also shows if you put the right guy in charge things can turn around in just 20 years too... and Russia did it without the active support of the west... in fact it started as indifference and then turned into hostility and having barriers thrown at them by the west so in many ways Russias path is actually more impressive than Chinas despite China having much better economic growth...

    Biden might not be anti China but there is no way he can survive being pro China.... he is going to have to control them and stop their growth.... which will rub China the wrong way...

    Russia doesn't have that kind of money to spare.

    I don't mean hand outs and charity... I mean investment... it is something Russia will make money on and India will benefit from too. I know it is the opposite of western doctrine...

    Its economy is roughly the size of India.

    What was the economy size comparison with the west and China when the west started using them as slave labour and investing in production there? EU + US does not equal China in 1980s...

    I would say Russias economy is better than Indias being more diverse but also with resources untapped and waiting to be exploited... for India their main resource seems to be people but that is a volatile resource that could be massively useful or just a pain in the ass.

    Zero cultural similarities with India unlike its close relations with Serbia, Belarus or even Ukraine.

    Its cultural similarities to the Ukraine meant very little really.... and what cultural similarities are there between the EU and US on the one hand and China on the other?

    China has the money but will never help India. In fact India is considered by China as one of their biggest enemy.

    Perhaps sucking up to the US and Japan and Australia might be influencing Chinese views of India?

    India needs to decide who it wants to align with.... BRICS or the west...

    Russia too is getting close to Pakistan. Already selling military hardware like Mi 17, Kornet ATGM etc to Pakistan. Will soon sign multi billion $$ arms deal with Pakistan.

    Russia is selling things to Pakistan that India does not want... and the biggest supplier to Pakistan is the US but India is fine with sucking up to the US... why the double standard?

    Turned out better than expected. Allowed oligarchs to steal more than $500 billion from Russia and park that stolen money in London and Florida.

    Every country has oligarchs or should I call them Oilygarchs, who steal from their own country and hide the money overseas so they don't have to pay tax... the difference is that in the west we call them entrepreneurs, and they buy and sell politicians and make laws to become richer while the people who work for them become poorer...

    India is in the same place where Russia was in, after the collapse of the USSR.

    They have potential but they need the right leader to slip into power without the western stooges realising like Putin did...

    Agree with everything but the highlighted part, India is not a democracy. India, like the US is a Plutocracy.

    It would be easier to fix if it was a communist state, but Russia managed it as a democracy.

    If Trump has shown us anything it is that the leaders of countries only have a small leeway for manouver and can't just make any changes they please to fix fundamental problems they probably need a revolution.

    If this was the cause, Putin would not have thrown Khodorkovsky in jail.

    Exactly... a western stooge would have taken his cut and then looked the other way as Khod carried on doing what he was doing.

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    Post  jhelb Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:14 am

    par far wrote: Agree with everything but the highlighted part, India is not a democracy. India, like the US is a Plutocracy.
    The only way India can make progress is if it is divided into several smaller countries. In the last 70 years since independence almost all the other countries that were more backward than India like Japan, China etc went on to become developed states.

    China is already trying to break up India, which is a good thing. Russia must assist China in this endeavor. These newly formed smaller states will make a lot more progress and will also have good trading relations with Russia.

    par far wrote: Since Modi came into power, Mukesh Ambani and Gautam Adani have bought everything state owned for pennies. The only big thing that is left is farming, which is why farmers in India are protesting.
    These things are bound to happen in a thoroughly corrupt country like India. Some states in India are making progress at the cost of others. India was always controlled by the West even after gaining independence. Therefore, I said India needs to be broken up into several smaller states.

    GarryB wrote: but Russia also shows if you put the right guy in charge things can turn around in just 20 years too...
    The world's largest country. The country that has the maximum natural reserves anywhere in the world and yet has an economy that is the size of a third world shithole like India. Yeah, right Russia certainly has the right guy in charge of things.

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