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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    JohninMK
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:25 pm

    Inevitably someone has now gamed the F-35 against a SU-35S. Very interesting, but very long, article showing just how important 'stealth' might be. Whether it stands up in the real world is a different matter, as mentioned by one of the comments at the end.

    http://aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/3272/Does-the-F35-really-suck-in-air-combat#sthash.LFir6BjG.dpuf

    Also at https://medium.com/war-is-boring/don-t-think-the-f-35-can-fight-it-does-in-this-realistic-war-game-fc10706ba9f4
    but without comments and different photos.
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:53 am

    I think the F-35 is dead... it might enter service in numbers, but its performance limitations will mean it will likely have a fairly short operational career.

    Ironically when the F-15 entered service some senator was reported as saying that the cost of the aircraft would outrageous and that the US would never spend 20 million on a single fighter plane again... he was of course right... after going from the F-4 to the F-15 was a big step but both were big and heavy and relatively expensive... and the reaction to that was the F-16, a sophisticated but small and light fighter that was going to be the cheap numbers plane.

    Later models were not cheap, but it was a useful numbers plane that was capable in its own right.

    The problem today is that modern EW systems make BVR kills very hard, and WVR kills with IR guided missiles have to overcome DIRCMs... up until the late 00s most Russian aircraft wouldn't have DIRCMs or decent jammers so Sidewinder and AMRAAM would be effective often enough to not have to worry about having to dogfight.

    Now however the Russian aircraft have sophisticated digital EW suites with operational DIRCMs systems so the effectiveness of missiles will dramatically drop to the level of Vietnam era missiles... so it comes back to turning and shooting with a gun... and the F-35 is not the plane for that...

    Su-35, MiG-35, PAK FA all have thrust vectoring engines that would make them rather more manouverable than the F-35 and F-22... so the US will likely struggle...
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  George1 Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:47 am

    F-35B officially reached initial operational capability
    higurashihougi
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  higurashihougi Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:18 am

    Oh... my... my...

    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150815/1025779111.html

    America’s much-touted fifth generation F-35 fighter jet is so bad it would be a sitting duck even for Russia’s MiG-21, designed back in the 1950s, famed US aerospace engineer Pierre Sprey told Russian media on Friday.
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:37 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Oh... my... my...

    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150815/1025779111.html

    America’s much-touted fifth generation F-35 fighter jet is so bad it would be a sitting duck even for Russia’s MiG-21, designed back in the 1950s, famed US aerospace engineer Pierre Sprey told Russian media on Friday.

    That is what some here said years ago. It is not a superiority fighter and has not a good design for dog fighting. Would be actually honey to hear stories after this thing was fielded and used again in some Bananarepublic that has only MiG-21M3/4 upgrades and shoots that thing down in dog fight. I am certain we would here speculations of dropping it like F-117, but only speculations to milk the cow it will remain for quite some time.
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:19 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Oh... my... my...

    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150815/1025779111.html

    America’s much-touted fifth generation F-35 fighter jet is so bad it would be a sitting duck even for Russia’s MiG-21, designed back in the 1950s, famed US aerospace engineer Pierre Sprey told Russian media on Friday.
    I am not a big fan of F-35 but how exactly would it be a sitting duck for MiG-21? O_o Isn't that guy going a bit too far?

    That guy hated the F-15 and used to say all it's advanced electronics is uselses etc. And F-15 ended up being aircraft with the highest kill ratio in the history of aviation.


    Last edited by Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Werewolf
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  Werewolf Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:23 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Oh... my... my...

    http://sputniknews.com/us/20150815/1025779111.html

    America’s much-touted fifth generation F-35 fighter jet is so bad it would be a sitting duck even for Russia’s MiG-21, designed back in the 1950s, famed US aerospace engineer Pierre Sprey told Russian media on Friday.
    I am not a big fan of F-35 but how exactly would it be a sitting duck for MiG-21? O_o Isn't that guy going a bit too far?

    He mentions the incapability of F-35 in a very known and very often occuring scenario a WVR warfare, it is a sitting duck because it is slower, less maneuverable and can not out run other planes in that regard. The F-35 would have little chance in dog fight with MIG-21M4 due its inferior dogfighting capabilities. To base your technology soley on dreams about BVR is stupid and history showed the US several times that WVR has not ended and will not end in foreseeable future.
    jka
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  jka Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:31 pm

    Customer Variant Numbers

    USAF - A - 1763
    USN - C - 260
    USMC - B - 340
    C - 80
    United Kingdom A B - 138 (48 on order)
    Turkey - A - 100
    Australia - A - 100
    Italy - A - 60
    B - 30
    Netherlands - A - 37 (down from 85)
    Canada - A - 65
    Norway - A - 56
    Japan - A - 42
    South Korea - A - 40 (+20 optional)
    Israel - A - 33 (+17 optional)
    Denmark - A - 30

    Zero to Canada. Even 1st planned was F-35.

    Canada will have F-18 E/F just like Finland.
    nemrod
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty Re: F-35 Lightning II: News thread

    Post  nemrod Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:42 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    I am not a big fan of F-35 but how exactly would it be a sitting duck for MiG-21? O_o Isn't that guy going a bit too far?
    No, as Pierre Sprey too, the Mig-21 in dogfight can easily overcome F-35. See my post next.

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    That guy hated the F-15 and used to say all it's advanced electronics is uselses etc.
    Indeed, he knows very well what he say. In order to win the F-15 will have to outnumber their ennemy. If a Mig-29 down a F-15, but he was downed by 4 other F-15, in my view the Mig-29 did not loose.

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    And F-15 ended up being aircraft with the highest kill ratio in the history of aviation.

    Highest kill ratio ? Those who said that were israelis, that used to lie, and their fantasy of Lebanon in 1982. If you recall Israelis claimed that they successfully downed 100 syrian aircrafts, against 0 losses with any concrete proofs to assert. If you see the concrete evidence on ground in Lebanon in 1982, nothing could assert the israeli claims, it is only a propaganda. And the US claims in Iraq, and in Serbia are not better. In fact we will have to admit a mega hoax as a truth. All these hoaxes were against soviet, in order to debunk soviet- russian- industry, meanwhile US could sell their shit as the F-16, and of course F-15. But noone is fool.

    nemrod
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    F-35 Lightning II: News thread - Page 9 Empty F-35 in a road to the same F-105's fate

    Post  nemrod Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:45 am


    Let's bet that F-35 will have the same F-105's fate.

    http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/air-force-admits-big-f35-problems-and.html


    Air Force admits big F35 problems and Think Tank says F35 is visible to China and Russia Sensors

    Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James has admitted to a wide range of past and present problems with the F-35 while maintaining that the fifth-general will eventually guarantee the U.S. continued air supremacy over rivals.


    * Report says F35 is visible to enemy sensors which is a big problem for a stealth fighter
    * This visible problem is combined with admitted fighting problems
    * Software and cost problems remain unresolved
    * US Navy likely to reduce its order of F35s to 12 per year

    A Washington think tank released a report Tuesday that found the 5th-generation jet – billed as the world's most advanced fighter – will be outmaneuvered in dogfights with current Russian and Chinese jets as well as the U.S. aircraft it is slated to replace. The report comes after details were leaked last month on a test flight where the F-35 was bested in most aerial maneuvering by an F-16.

    "The F-35 will find itself outmaneuvered, outgunned, out of range, and visible to enemy sensors," according to Bill French, a policy analyst with the National Security Network, a progressive think tank that claims to challenge overly militarized conservative defense policies. "Staying the present course [on the aircraft program] may needlessly gamble away a sizable margin of American airpower at great expense and unnecessary risk to American lives."


    Navy likely to cut order from 20 F35s per year to 12

    The US Navy believes budget pressures and competing priorities could drive it to purchase fewer Lockheed Martin F-35Cs per year in the 2020s, and a worst-case scenario could see it procure as few as 12 aircraft per year, or one squadron.

    Naval Air Forces commander Vice Adm Mike Shoemaker says the current plan is to purchase around 20 carrier variants per year in the 2020s, but depending on the resources available, annual output could fall to anywhere between 12 and 20 aircraft.

    “I think the current realities of the budget and other priories inside the navy may drive something between those two numbers, but we’re still on the path to [initial operational capability] for our first squadron in 2018,” Shoemaker said at the US Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

    The navy is by far the least enthusiastic recipient of the F-35, with the Marine Corps and Air Force holding firm on their annual buys despite facing similar budget pressures. The C-model was designed specifically for carrier-based operations and has larger wings and horizontal tails as well as stronger landing gear than the A- and B-models.

    The navy paying $265 million per F-35C in fiscal year 2014, but also because the navy has a more modern combat fleet comprised mostly of newer F/A-18 Super Hornets. Even though the cost per jet is expected to fall to $144 million in 2020, it far exceeds the $80 million to $90 million the navy was paying for Boeing Super Hornets over the past few years.Lockheed Martin aims to bring the average cost of an F-35A down to $80 million by 2019, but much of the anticipated savings come from increased quantities. The company expects to ramp up Joint Strike Fighter production to more than 160 aircraft in 2019, and is also eyeing a multi-year block buy for about 450 jets that combines domestic and international orders.




    Next time we have hundreds of billions for next generation planes then do not fly while building

    "The biggest lesson I have learned from the F-35 is never again should we be flying an aircraft while we're building it," James said at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado last week.

    In development stages, "People believed we could go faster, cheaper, better" by designing and building the F-35 concurrently, "and that the degree of concurrency would work. Indeed it has not worked as well as we had hoped and that's probably the understatement of the day," James said.

    "It has taken us too long, it has cost us way more money than we ever imagined possible," James said of the most expensive weapons program in Pentagon history. "We're very focused from now on to driving the cost down per unit and they are coming down."

    However, she noted that there were additional challenges to making the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II operational. "I would sum it up in one word – software," James said, noting the 24 million lines of code in the aircraft.

    F-16 Dogfight admission from Air Force

    James also agreed that an F-35A "didn't do so well" in mock dogfights with an F-16 last January. The test pilot's assessment, first reported by the "War Is Boring" blog, said that the F-35 lacked the maneuverability to keep up with the F-16 and the F-35 pilot's helmet cut down on his vision.

    "There were multiple occasions when the bandit (F-16) would've been visible but the helmet prevented getting in a position to see him," the report said.

    James said the dogfight against the F-16 provided the F-35 program with valuable data but she also stressed that the F-35 will be a different plane when it's fully operational.

    SOURCE - Stars and Stripes, military.com by Travis J. Tritten and Richard Sisk, Flight Global
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    Post  jka Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:05 pm

    Maybe Germany will have F-35 and maybe 100 pers. 40 Eurofighter. 140 fighter jets in total.
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    Post  nemrod Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:59 pm

    jka wrote:Maybe Germany will have F-35 and maybe 100 pers. 40 Eurofighter. 140 fighter jets in total.
    Excellent remarq !thumbsup  JKA.
    I am thinking about this, and Iam wondering whether the F-35 was not intended  against Germany, and overall all european aircraft industry. After the war in Vietnam, most european countries that bought, and used US aircrafts, realized all that far to be effective, the US industry could hardly match with soviet aircrafts, hence they had no trust of US hardware. In spite of what it was said, Italy, Germany, UK, France, Netherland, Spain, Portugal, all decided to develop their own indigenous aircrafts with +or - success. UK developed a consortium with Panavia and built the Tornado, France developed its own aircrafts, with its own specifications like Mirage F-1, 2000, and next the Rafale. UK developed just after the EAF Typhoon. The US prestige was then jeopardized, and after the unfortunate collapse of USSR, US wanted to retake its lost leadership, especially in aircraft industry. Everyone knows that the F-35 is a shit, but its first goal in my view is chiefly to  stalemate european industry, and delete it. The other purpose is to control all european countries and deter any indepandence attempts. Japan and South Korea understood it quickly, even though they ordered -with significant reduced number- some F-35, they decided to develop their own fighters. Nevertheless, it is not the case with european countries.
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    Post  jka Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:50 pm

    Rafale to Germany is not possible or is it????

    Maybe 80 pers and 40 Eurofighters in Luftwaffe.

    120 air crafts in total by fighters. Much better F-35.

    Poland have 67 fighters in the future.

    Sweden have 60 >>> 39-E or zero.

    If theres be 9500 in the Army and concripts Army.

    http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Försvarsmakten

    This here map >>> 19,995 sailors and soldiers 2012.

    1st force are 19,951 sailors and soldiers 2014-2015.

    Old reserve maybe but it be concripts Army instead.

    Just like old size in both 1st and 2nd old forces.

    study
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    Post  Book. Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:16 pm

    @jka

    Why betray the Jas 39? Suspect
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    Post  jka Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:38 pm

    It might become a militia in ground forces by 25,000 troops.
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    Post  Godric Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:56 pm

    the Germans won't buy the F-35 ... they would be more likely to buy more Eurofighters .... memory is still strong of the F-104 Starfighters or the flying coffin as the Germans pilots called them
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    Post  jka Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:45 pm

    USAF - A - 1763 USN - C - 260 USMC - B - 340 C - 80.

    What about this??
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    Post  jka Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:31 pm

    No F-35 to Germany.

    I will now Rafale to Bundeswehr.

    And this one:

    Army - 22,000
    Air Force - 10,000
    Navy - 15,000 (one helicopter carrier builds then 2000 coast Guard and 1000 sea warriors the rest will be 10,000 Marines in swedish Navy in Stockholm and second half in Gotland).

    20 pers 39-E/F in Såtenäs.
    18 pers 39-E/F in Uppsala.
    14 pers 39-E/F in Gotland.
    18 pers for outland wars.

    70 Super Jas is planned.

    47,000 Proffesionel Army.
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    Post  jka Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:00 pm

    17 pers 39-E/F in Såtenäs.
    20 pers 39-E/F in Ronneby.
    5 pers 39-E/F in Gotland.
    20 pers for outland wars.

    Planned between 60-70 Super Jas.

    russia russia
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    Post  max steel Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:34 pm

    jka wrote:
    USAF - A - 1763 USN - C - 260 USMC - B - 340 C - 80.

    What about this??

    Let them have duds Twisted Evil
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    Post  jka Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:51 pm

    max steel wrote:
    jka wrote:
    USAF - A - 1763 USN - C - 260 USMC - B - 340 C - 80.

    What about this??

    Let them have duds Twisted Evil

    Asom. Twisted Evil
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:22 am

    Two articles, same bullshit.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-the-1000000000000-f-35-stealth-fighter-might-be-good-13670?page=2
    http://warisboring.com/articles/is-the-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-the-new-f-4/

    So basically the author want to say

    1)Even if F-35 is a piece of craps then there is no problem because after entering service people will make it better. Laughing Laughing Laughing
    2)Su-27 and MiG-29 is not 100% perfect so it is fine for F-35 to be full of bullshit. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:42 am

    The real problem is that it wont be until the aircraft goes to war that any major faults or problems will reveal themselves fully and by then it is too late.

    For the F-4 it was lack of an internal gun and too much focus on BVR combat which was still very immature.

    For the F-35 I suspect the price of the aircraft will mean it never enters service in anything like the numbers first talked about.
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    Post  max steel Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:22 pm

    Russian Stealth Ship Killers Debut at MAKS 2015


    http://defense-update.com/20150830_missiles_at_maks_2015.html#.VeSQ3_m6bIV
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    Post  nemrod Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:21 am

    Even against a fokker. When I said to George that I was sceptical if a dogfight occurs between F-35 and Mig-21. I doubt too, if a F-22, could down more 5 Mig-21. With one F-22 price, you can buy at least 50. With one F-35, you can buy 100 Mig-21. Mwahahahaha lol!


    Lockheed Upbeat Despite F-35 Losing Dogfight To Red Baron


    BETHESDA, Md. — A spokesman for Lockheed Martin today denied that there is any reason to be alarmed about possible shortcomings of the military’s newest and most expensive fighter plane after reports surfaced this weekend that an F-35, piloted by a crack Air Force fighter pilot, lost a mock dogfight with a Fokker Dr.I Triplane similar to the aircraft once piloted by World War I German Ace Manfred von Richtofen, the “Red Baron,” piloted by a World War I reenactor.

    “The F-35 isn’t really meant for that kind of fighting,” said Lance McCory, a Lockheed spokesman. “We intend it to be a first-rate mulitrole attack aircraft, and to excel at long-range fighting, what we call BVR, or ‘Beyond Visual Range’ air combat. Not to worry about some Hun who’s been dead a hundred years. Frankly, the two aircraft involved in this battle represent two different philosophies of air combat.”

    The Fokker Dr.I Triplane, made of wood and doped linen, entered service with the German Army Air service in 1917. It was famous for its considerable maneuverability and its high rate of climb. The pilot sat in an open cockpit, exposed to the weather, and had primitive controls by today’s standards.

    McCory went on to add, “The Dr.I triplane might out climb, out turn, and out dive the F-35, but where is its radar, huh? Where are its sensors? Where is the laser terrain guidance? Huh? Sure, up close, in a knife fight, the Dr.I has machine guns, and an F-35 pilot just has his sidearm. And [the Dr.I’s] cloth wings are nearly invisible to radar. But we have ‘the world’s most advanced fighter jet.'”

    Capt. A.J. Schrag, an Air Combat Command spokesman, said “There’s no way to adapt the [Dr.I] airframe to carry the required missiles and radar. It might be good in a dogfight, but not standing off for close air support, and it’s completely hopeless when it comes to engaging targets in a BVR-type air battle.”

    Meanwhile, according to a source close to the recent dogfight, the F-35 “turns like a garbage truck. It might be faster than the triplane, but that doesn’t matter in a stall fight.”

    Lockheed officials have separately downplayed reports that the same F-35, flown by the same pilot, previously lost mock dogfights with the Goodyear Blimp and a beagle on a flying doghouse.

    Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark A. Welsh III declined comment through a spokesman, saying only, “Curse you, Red Baron!”

    http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/08/f-35-loses-dogfight-to-red-baron/#ixzz3kcdi7W20



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