Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

PapaDragon wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......
Krylov Center some time ago mentioned that Storm (1 piece) is going to be in range of 1 trillion Rubles (till recently ~16billions $) . including R&D. For thsi you can get 10 mistrals or  6 Wasp LHDs (using pricing for US navy)

Let's go with 6 WASPs here. For a price of one supercarrier that will take ages to build and will be available for limited period of time before having to return to port they can get a whole fleet of smaller carriers that will allow them to operate globally year round.

And don't forget that carrier needs escort ships. For a price of second supercarrier they can buy enough of escorts to cover entire carrier fleet.

LMFS wrote:@PapaDragon:

either we get the cost discussion right or we can spare the discussion because we say things that have no fundament in reality:

> 16 billion is a huge cost for Russian navy. It is more than a Ford carrier, so I take this with great mistrust. What is included there?
> The values you mention for the smaller carriers are without development and without air wing

What I am asking is, what is he proposing exactly. If you get a nuclear TAKR with 60k and 3-4 squadrons fighters + docks + helos + VLS etc then what features are you saving and what big cost reduction is expected?

LMFS wrote:@eehnie:

we agree to disagree then. Your comments simply ignore realities of carrier operation and make assumptions too lightly IMO. All to argue that CTOL Su-57 could operate from the Shtorm carriers, for an obscure tactical advantage. I simply don't see the huge value or sense in that, sorry

Prospective Russian aircraft carrier estimated at 6.2 billion dollars

07/04/2015 |  15:41 |  

At the International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2015) in St. Petersburg, a high-ranking source in the defense-industrial complex named the cost of creating an aircraft carrier for the Storm project.

Construction of a ship with a displacement of up to 100 thousand tons, capable of carrying up to 80-90 aircraft, will cost 350 billion Russian rubles, or about 6.2 billion dollars.  The source stressed that this will not be a one-time payment, but investments in the program for a period of 10 years.

In addition, the source noted that this is a "theoretical price", since it is only possible to estimate the cost of an aircraft carrier after the development of the project and the creation of cooperation of enterprises that will build it.  But in any case it will be at least a couple of hundred billion Russian rubles.  A significant part of the cost of the new ship, according to the source, will be electromagnetic catapults.

In a similar amount estimated the creation of the aircraft carrier and CEO of the Nevsky PCB Sergei Vlasov.  According to him, a heavy aircraft carrier would cost the budget 200-280 billion Russian rubles.

For comparison: the most powerful modern aircraft carrier - American-class "Nimitz" - costs about $ 4.5 billion, and the aircraft carriers of the Gerald R. Ford type, which are being replaced by him, are $ 10.5 billion.

kumbor wrote:Best sea speed of Nimitz was 31,5kts.
Kuz`s best 23 knots is below any operational need, because ship sails into wind when operating aircraft, and ship speed adds also! That's why carriers are fast ships.

eehnie wrote:
Yes, we can agree to disagree, because to assume as lightly the strong negligence in the Russian engineers in not compatible with my point. Neither is compatible with my point to ignore the high cost advantages of this way in the development of the aircraft carrier + figther combination.

PapaDragon wrote:Ship's size dictates price, construction speed and operating costs.

LMFS wrote:Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

LMFS wrote:Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/august-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6451-russia-s-krylov-research-center-unveils-light-aircraft-carrier-design.html

LMFS wrote:The soap opera continues

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5487292

Plans to develop a CVN gentlemen...

In Russia, an atomic aircraft carrier may appear

Army and defense industry
 24 August, 12:25 updating date: on August 24, 12:53 UTC + 3

As the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov noted, in order to create such a ship, power is needed, the ship itself must be modern and perform the corresponding tasks

Andrei Lusik / Press Service of the Northern Fleet / TASS

KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, 24 August.  / TASS /.  The Russian Navy has already launched work on the creation of a nuclear power plant for a new-generation aircraft carrier and is working on creating a project for such a ship.  This was announced on Friday on the air of the television channel Zvezda by the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov.


"It's a very complex issue, and it's really being worked out today by the design bureaus of the United Shipbuilding Corporation and is being worked out by shipbuilding plants, because to create such a ship, we need capacities," he said, answering the question whether an aircraft carrier with a nuclear power plant is needed.

Also work on this subject is carried out by the scientific research institutes of the Navy.  "Today the engine has been launched [research on its creation has been launched], and today we are working on this topic and in the near future some kind of concept will be approved." Yes, it is expensive, but this ship should take place, "stressed Tryapichnikov.

The representative of the Russian Navy said that such an aircraft carrier of a new generation "should be modern, fulfill its respective tasks."  "In the near future such a decision will be made," the admiral summed up.



In the combat composition of the Russian Navy, there is the only non-nuclear medium-sized aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov (according to the Russian classification, a heavy aircraft carrying cruiser).  As stated earlier in the Navy, the Russian fleet expects to receive a prospective aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030, its displacement should be at least 70 thousand tons. The only scientific organization - the Nevsky Design Bureau - is engaged in designing aircraft carriers in Russia.


Подробнее на ТАСС:
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Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

eehnie wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

The new small Shtorm does not include the Su-57, but neither reachs 70000 tons. Half of aircrafts for half cost, but with aircrafts of lower quality.

The Su-57 was present even in the Presentation of the export variant of the Project 23000 Shtorm in 2015. This is enough to see the close relation between both projects since many years. And to assume strong technical feedback between them.

Isos wrote:
Shipyards don't decide if su-57 is navalized or not.

The small shtorm is meant for export. Su-57 is still not proposed for export. Maybe that's why they didn't put it on the maket.

th problem I see is who is going to buy? Indians? who else might be potential customer? and India is building own stuff. Russia will build small AC 40-60k tons as I said before thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup mind that I also mentioned in 2017 Russia needs VSTOL lol! lol! lol!

Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

Firebird wrote:

My view is that Russia needs lots of options. It shouldn't fall into line as being "mainly China's supplier" or "mainly the Eurasian Union".

That way might risk Russia being exploited. By having various options open it isn't forced to accept onerous terms or tied into quasi political alliances. In other words, let politics dictate military shopping lists, rather than the other way round.

With reworked deck allowing big deck park actually carrying those numbers will be a more practical proposition?
Not entirely sold on the elevators: clearly scaled to tight fit with Su-33, I guess they figure there's a lot of wasted space in the big outboard lifts on K. 3 small lifts may be more useful than 2 bigger ones.
Being inboard allows outboard deck park for a bunch of planes all out of the way of deck ops but will impinge on hangar.