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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:07 pm

    @PapaDragon:

    either we get the cost discussion right or we can spare it because we say things that have no fundament in reality:

    > 16 billion is a huge cost for Russian navy. It is more than a Ford carrier, so I take this with great mistrust. What is included there?
    > The values you mention for the smaller carriers are without development and without air wing

    What I am asking is, what is he proposing exactly. If you get a nuclear TAKR with 60k and 3-4 squadrons fighters + docks + helos + VLS etc then what features are you saving and what big cost reduction is expected?


    Last edited by LMFS on Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......
    Krylov Center some time ago mentioned that Storm (1 piece) is going to be in range of 1 trillion Rubles (till recently ~16billions $) . including R&D. For thsi you can get 10 mistrals or  6 Wasp LHDs (using pricing for US navy)

    Let's go with 6 WASPs here. For a price of one supercarrier that will take ages to build and will be available for limited period of time before having to return to port they can get a whole fleet of smaller carriers that will allow them to operate globally year round.



    4 is already good but 6 is definitely better Laughing Laughing Laughing Some time ago we've discovered that best factor in optimizing plans for CVNs is Anton Germanovich Siluanov lol1 lol1 lol1

    I am convinced that in with restricted resources and no intentions to wage full scale wars with South American/African countries Wasp/America is best choice.



    And don't forget that carrier needs escort ships. For a price of second supercarrier they can buy enough of escorts to cover entire carrier fleet.

    actually you can if you focus 100% of MoD budget only for this task yes sir yes sir yes sir



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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:15 pm

    LMFS wrote:@PapaDragon:

    either we get the cost discussion right or we can spare the discussion because we say things that have no fundament in reality:

    > 16 billion is a huge cost for Russian navy. It is more than a Ford carrier, so I take this with great mistrust. What is included there?
    > The values you mention for the smaller carriers are without development and without air wing

    What I am asking is, what is he proposing exactly. If you get a nuclear TAKR with 60k and 3-4 squadrons fighters + docks + helos + VLS etc then what features are you saving and what big cost reduction is expected?


    yup

    1) you save cost of Mistral + cost of  Shtorm + perhaps also cost of Groskhov M in one?
    2) operational costs (America LHA) 3,4 blns unit including R&D  - Ford 9 blns building unit + 5 blns $ R&D



    BTW AMerica LHA displacemtn is like 50ktons...
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    Post  eehnie Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:@eehnie:

    we agree to disagree then. Your comments simply ignore realities of carrier operation and make assumptions too lightly IMO. All to argue that CTOL Su-57 could operate from the Shtorm carriers, for an obscure tactical advantage. I simply don't see the huge value or sense in that, sorry

    Yes, we can agree to disagree, because to assume as lightly the strong negligence in the Russian engineers in not compatible with my point. Neither is compatible with my point to ignore the high cost advantages of this way in the development of the aircraft carrier + figther combination.

    Public data to take into account:

    SU-57 take-off lenght: 300m
    Project 23000 lenght: 330m

    https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02298.pdf
    $21.0 Billion = Development costs F-22
    http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20160324_Fact-Sheet.pdf
    $55.1 Billion = Development costs F-35 (only Research, Development, Test and Evaluation costs, nothing of procurement, nothing of military construction)
    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS20643.pdf
    $04.7 Billion = Development cost G Ford Aircraft Carriers
    $12.9 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-78 G Ford Aircraft Carrier)
    $11.4 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-79 JF Kennedy Aircraft Carrier)
    $13.0 Billion = Cost per unit (CV-80 Enterprise Aircraft Carrie

    Realities of carrier operations depend of the design of the carrier+aircraft and can be improved by design.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:42 pm

    LMFS wrote:@PapaDragon:

    either we get the cost discussion right or we can spare it because we say things that have no fundament in reality:

    > 16 billion is a huge cost for Russian navy. It is more than a Ford carrier, so I take this with great mistrust. What is included there?
    > The values you mention for the smaller carriers are without development and without air wing

    What I am asking is, what is he proposing exactly. If you get a nuclear TAKR with 60k and 3-4 squadrons fighters + docks + helos + VLS etc then what features are you saving and what big cost reduction is expected?

    Number for supercarrier is also without air wing. And everything else. Same standard for both small and large ones.

    Also, nothing is stopping navy from ordering​ nuclear powered version later on.

    Right now helicopter carriers​ and transport ships are priority, once VTOLs are ready they can diversify.

    Ship's size dictates price, construction speed and operating costs.
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    Post  eehnie Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:29 pm

    In the refered to the costs of production:

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftodaysmilitary.ru%2F2015%2F07%2F04%2Fperspektivnyj-rossijskij-avianosets-otsenili-v-6-2-milliarda-dollarov%2F

    Prospective Russian aircraft carrier estimated at 6.2 billion dollars

    07/04/2015 |  15:41 |  

    At the International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2015) in St. Petersburg, a high-ranking source in the defense-industrial complex named the cost of creating an aircraft carrier for the Storm project.

    Construction of a ship with a displacement of up to 100 thousand tons, capable of carrying up to 80-90 aircraft, will cost 350 billion Russian rubles, or about 6.2 billion dollars.  The source stressed that this will not be a one-time payment, but investments in the program for a period of 10 years.

    In addition, the source noted that this is a "theoretical price", since it is only possible to estimate the cost of an aircraft carrier after the development of the project and the creation of cooperation of enterprises that will build it.  But in any case it will be at least a couple of hundred billion Russian rubles.  A significant part of the cost of the new ship, according to the source, will be electromagnetic catapults.

    In a similar amount estimated the creation of the aircraft carrier and CEO of the Nevsky PCB Sergei Vlasov.  According to him, a heavy aircraft carrier would cost the budget 200-280 billion Russian rubles.

    For comparison: the most powerful modern aircraft carrier - American-class "Nimitz" - costs about $ 4.5 billion, and the aircraft carriers of the Gerald R. Ford type, which are being replaced by him, are $ 10.5 billion.

    To note that today 350 billion Russian Rubles are US$ 5.19 billion

    In Russian Rubles, this means less than a 2% of the budget of the State Armament Program 2018-2027.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:12 pm

    kumbor wrote:Best sea speed of Nimitz was 31,5kts.
    Kuz`s best 23 knots is below any operational need, because ship sails into wind when operating aircraft, and ship speed adds also! That's why carriers are fast ships.
    The USN CVN top speed is classified; it's declared as "in excess of 30 kts". Years ago I heard from sailors that they can do as high as ~45 kts, if not more. The conventional CV-63 did a high speed run in 1998 doing ~35-38 kts for > an hour. Later it sailed from Singapore to the Arabian Gulf in < than 4 days. https://www.searoutes.com/portdistance?fromName=Fujairah&fromLocode=AEFJR&toName=Singapore&toLocode=SGSIN

    3,316nm/4=828.9nm per day/24hr=34.54 kts.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:53 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Yes, we can agree to disagree, because to assume as lightly the strong negligence in the Russian engineers in not compatible with my point. Neither is compatible with my point to ignore the high cost advantages of this way in the development of the aircraft carrier + figther combination.



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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Ship's size dictates price, construction speed and operating costs.


    so 70% or price of new AC is operational cost for the whole group...



    A 2009 report said that Gerald R. Ford would cost $14 billion including research and development, and the actual cost of the carrier itself would be $9 billion.[52] The life-cycle cost per operating day of a carrier strike group (including aircraft) was estimated at $6.5 million in 2013 published by the Center for New American Security.[53]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_carrier
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    Post  LMFS Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:51 pm

    Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/august-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6451-russia-s-krylov-research-center-unveils-light-aircraft-carrier-design.html
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:15 am

    LMFS wrote:Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

    wow, the great first step in recognition of reality! v thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

    OK no we got displacement (40-44ktns - look as Wasp/LHA America!) . The next step to me is realistic approach towards AWACS (drones) , defensive suite( VLS for AAD and /zircons) and third VSTOL instead of Swordfish Su-33/MiG-29 lol! lol! lol!
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    Post  Isos Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:12 am

    LMFS wrote:Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/august-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6451-russia-s-krylov-research-center-unveils-light-aircraft-carrier-design.html

    Well, in terms of size it is in the K class. Not small at all. 28 jets plus 4 awacs plus 14 ka-27 which is a big helicopter is really good. With 2 awacs and few naval ka-60 for SaR mission could increase the total number of fighters to 40 and bring it to the capacities of Charle de Gaulle with still some ASW assets compare to none for french carrier.

    A nuclear variant would have been better. Two of those in each fleets woukd be better than wait for shtorm.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:58 am

    They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
    Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.
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    Post  eehnie Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:25 am

    LMFS wrote:The soap opera continues lol1 lol1 lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5487292

    Plans to develop a CVN gentlemen...

    Like the article says, plans to develop a CVN over 70000 tons.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftass.ru%2Farmiya-i-opk%2F5487292

    In Russia, an atomic aircraft carrier may appear

    Army and defense industry
     24 August, 12:25 updating date: on August 24, 12:53 UTC + 3

    As the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov noted, in order to create such a ship, power is needed, the ship itself must be modern and perform the corresponding tasks

    ©️ Andrei Lusik / Press Service of the Northern Fleet / TASS

    KUBINKA / Moscow Region /, 24 August.  / TASS /.  The Russian Navy has already launched work on the creation of a nuclear power plant for a new-generation aircraft carrier and is working on creating a project for such a ship.  This was announced on Friday on the air of the television channel Zvezda by the head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy Rear Admiral Vladimir Tryapichnikov.


    "It's a very complex issue, and it's really being worked out today by the design bureaus of the United Shipbuilding Corporation and is being worked out by shipbuilding plants, because to create such a ship, we need capacities," he said, answering the question whether an aircraft carrier with a nuclear power plant is needed.

    Also work on this subject is carried out by the scientific research institutes of the Navy.  "Today the engine has been launched [research on its creation has been launched], and today we are working on this topic and in the near future some kind of concept will be approved." Yes, it is expensive, but this ship should take place, "stressed Tryapichnikov.

    The representative of the Russian Navy said that such an aircraft carrier of a new generation "should be modern, fulfill its respective tasks."  "In the near future such a decision will be made," the admiral summed up.



    In the combat composition of the Russian Navy, there is the only non-nuclear medium-sized aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov (according to the Russian classification, a heavy aircraft carrying cruiser).  As stated earlier in the Navy, the Russian fleet expects to receive a prospective aircraft carrier with an atomic power plant by the end of 2030, its displacement should be at least 70 thousand tons. The only scientific organization - the Nevsky Design Bureau - is engaged in designing aircraft carriers in Russia.


    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5487292&xid=17259,15700021,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700201,15700213&usg=ALkJrhihPyQji1tmwv33fkToZxy8wjhOdA
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    Post  eehnie Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:57 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
    Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

    The new small Shtorm does not include the Su-57, but neither reachs 70000 tons. Half of aircrafts for half cost, but with aircrafts of lower quality.

    The Su-57 was present even in the Presentation of the export variant of the Project 23000 Shtorm in 2015. This is enough to see the close relation between both projects since many years. And to assume strong technical feedback between them.

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 34 23000_MVMS-2015_06
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    Post  Isos Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:02 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
    Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

    The new small Shtorm does not include the Su-57, but neither reachs 70000 tons. Half of aircrafts for half cost, but with aircrafts of lower quality.

    The Su-57 was present even in the Presentation of the export variant of the Project 23000 Shtorm in 2015. This is enough to see the close relation between both projects since many years. And to assume strong technical feedback between them.

    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 34 23000_MVMS-2015_06

    Shipyards don't decide if su-57 is navalized or not.

    The small shtorm is meant for export. Su-57 is still not proposed for export. Maybe that's why they didn't put it on the maket.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:21 am

    Isos wrote:
    Shipyards don't decide if su-57 is navalized or not.


    and military clearly gone for VSTOL

    The small shtorm is meant for export. Su-57 is still not proposed for export. Maybe that's why they didn't put it on the maket.


    th problem I see is who is going to buy? Indians? who else might be potential customer? and India is building own stuff. Russia will build small AC 40-60k tons as I said before thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup mind that I also mentioned in 2017 Russia needs VSTOL lol! lol! lol!
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    Post  Isos Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:44 am

    th problem I see is who is going to buy? Indians? who else might be potential customer? and India is building own stuff. Russia will build small AC 40-60k tons as I said before thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup mind that I also mentioned in 2017 Russia needs VSTOL lol! lol! lol!

    It is not the problem. They only proposed a maket for potential customer and not to russian navy. They didn't build the ship hoping someone will buy it.

    Seeing how indian projects go on (arjun, tejas ...) they could end up buying this ship. Their Vikramanditia is very small. Their indian made carrier is only a copy of a small carrier. Their future carrier with catapults will probably be a failure and they will need something to counter china.

    So there are only two countries selling carriers: russia and france. The cost of a french carrier plus the rafales on it would be as expensive as all the indian navy. They will probably go for russian design. But we have to wait that india spend billions to see that they can't make anything by their own to buy to russia.
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    Post  LMFS Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:34 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They don't even mention the SU-57! To me, it means that the SU-57 isn't being considered for navalization or they don't believe it's possible.
    Also, the 2 forward launch positions indicated by raised JBDs looks too short from the edge of the bow.

    Krylov is just a design bureau making a proposal, they don't decide such things as navalization of Su-57. In their previous model there were Su-57s BTW

    The forward launch positions are around 100 m, like in the Kuznetsov.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    th problem I see is who is going to buy? Indians? who else might be potential customer? and India is building own stuff. Russia will build small AC 40-60k tons as I said before thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup mind that I also mentioned in 2017 Russia needs VSTOL lol! lol! lol!

    It is not the problem. They only proposed a maket for potential customer and not to russian navy. They didn't build the ship hoping someone will buy it.

    There are no customers for this just as there were none for Shtorm. They released Shtorm scale model a decade ago. When they finally figured out that nobody gives a fig about it they cut it down to 50% and are giving it another go.

    Once they realize that nobody is interested in this one they will cut another 50% down, replace little airplanes with helicopters, rename it to helicopter carrier and give it another try.

    By the time that happens Russian​ Navy will start building actual helicopter carrier designed by people who actually know how to design ships.

    Why does anyone even take this arts and crafts club seriously anymore? Just to remind you, these are some "geniuses" that gave us Anime-class nuclear destroyer scale model.


    Isos wrote:.........
    So there are only two countries selling carriers: russia and france. The cost of a french carrier plus the rafales on it would be as expensive as all the indian navy. They will probably go for russian design. But we have to wait that india spend billions to see that they can't make anything by their own to buy to russia.

    By the time India realises that they can't make one decades will pass. And even if they do start looking for foreign version I highly doubt they will be even remotely interested in some decades old scale model from Anime & Co.
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    Post  hoom Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:31 pm

    Good article on Navy Recognition about the new light carrier proposal:
    Curious.
    I may be sold on this model actually being the light carrier & it being a good design  Neutral

    Dimensions quoted give it basically same length deck as K but wider.
    Slightly shorter on waterline but a bit fatter & a couple meters less draught, significantly less engine power.

    There was a quote recently talking about a more radical hull shape, ppl interpreted that as catamaran or other exotic types but I've been thinking it could be 20386 style with a very fine, long bow only reaching max beam about 2/3 back, so while the hull may be fatter at max the average beam could be thinner than K -> help with those dimensions being for a much lighter ship than K.

    This bow-on CGI shows a LOT more overhang on island side & overhang both sides is brought a lot further forward, only little corners cut off at the stern, thinner bow ramp.
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 34 Russias_Krylov_Research_Center_Unveils_Light_Aircraft_Carrier_Design_2

    Compare with K which doesn't actually have much island side overhang.
    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 34 11435_170210_01

    So actually a much bigger deck than K on a similar size but lighter hull.

    2 shaft Gas Turbines should be much lighter than 4 shaft steam. (and 110,000hp of Gas Turbine may be a lot more directly useful than 200,000hp of finicky Steam: the GT gets near-immediate startup & access to full power)
    Various other modernisation should enable significantly smaller crew -> less associated mass.
    Much lighter armament, Western style self-defense only: 4* Pantsir-M, Packet anti-torps -> much less mass.
    Smaller island with much less electronics gear -> less mass.
    Bigger deck -> more mass.

    Airgroup numbers are pretty similar to the official airgroup of K.
    With reworked deck allowing big deck park actually carrying those numbers will be a more practical proposition?

    Not entirely sold on the elevators: clearly scaled to tight fit with Su-33, I guess they figure there's a lot of wasted space in the big outboard lifts on K.
    3 small lifts may be more useful than 2 bigger ones.
    Being inboard allows outboard deck park for a bunch of planes all out of the way of deck ops but will impinge on hangar.
    Looks like naval choppers will fit easily.
    But that size could be limiting if they ever want to use a bigger plane.


    So in summary its an optimised, modernised K, doing the main things K does but more efficiently & on lighter displacement Cool
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    Post  Firebird Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 pm

    Its not the metal that costs the money. Its the state of the art systems, the support stuff, and whether it can ever return revenue outside of a major operation. Also, whether its for the Ru Fedn alone, or the Eurasian Union or many allies that are paying to see they aren't attacked by Uncle Sham/other terrorists or any other scumbag of the day.

    Its easy to read the different proposals for a carrier. But its impossible to make a decision without knowing its purpose and Russia's needs. Obviously something will replace/augment the K at some point. Because even in the Soviet era, Russia wanted atleast 3 Ulyanovosks as the main carriers and the K class (and others) for different roles - choppers/STOLS etc. Say the USSR was planning 10/12 carriers (heli, light and full Ulyanovsks). That would translate to about 4 or 5 carriers in the modern era vs Uncle Shams bloated and OTT 12 or so.

    Perhaps Russia will plan major partnerships with Vietnam, Phillipines/SE Asia etc. Perhaps Lat America will be a big focus. Perhaps Russia will become partners with Africa for a massive population of cheapish labour. These would justify substantial carrier expenditure. Staying strictly as a land power between the Eurasian Union and China would mean less need for carriers.

    My view is that Russia needs lots of options. It shouldn't fall into line as being "mainly China's supplier" or "mainly the Eurasian Union".
    That way might risk Russia being exploited. By having various options open it isn't forced to accept onerous terms or tied into quasi political alliances. In other words, let politics dictate military shopping lists, rather than the other way round.
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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 34 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:19 pm

    Firebird wrote:

    My view is that Russia needs lots of options. It shouldn't fall into line as being "mainly China's supplier" or "mainly the Eurasian Union".


    China, India and EU is like half of worlds population.


    That way might risk Russia being exploited. By having various options open it isn't forced to accept onerous terms or tied into quasi political alliances. In other words, let politics dictate military shopping lists, rather than the other way round.

    Nobody dared to attack Russia in Syria without any CSG presence. To prevent war is it enough to send one gunboat. Times of CSGs for Midway are over. Especially with hypersonic one-hour -global strike options and continuous surveillance satellite grouping
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:25 pm

    With reworked deck allowing big deck park actually carrying those numbers will be a more practical proposition?
    Not entirely sold on the elevators: clearly scaled to tight fit with Su-33, I guess they figure there's a lot of wasted space in the big outboard lifts on K. 3 small lifts may be more useful than 2 bigger ones.
    Being inboard allows outboard deck park for a bunch of planes all out of the way of deck ops but will impinge on hangar.
    The increased flight deck area will compensate for loss of space in the hangar with those elevators.
    This CV is offered for export but they may also hope it'll be ordered by the VMF as an alternative or a stop gap. The SU-57 is shorter than the SU-33 & will fit on them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57#Specifications_(T-50)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-33#Specifications

    I guess they didn't bother with showing it for all of the above reasons.
    As Argentina was surrounded on all sides in 1982, so is India now. Her CVs have the same utility as the imported HTMS Chakri Naruebet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTMS_Chakri_Naruebet
    My posts from another thread: China-India rapprochement makes sense
    http://www.atimes.com/china-india-rapprochement-makes-sense/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=902f2bd861-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_24_11_51&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-902f2bd861-31607385

    He's right, they have a lot more to gain by "burying the hatchet".
    Their populations have similar statistics:
    http://countrymeters.info/en/India
    http://countrymeters.info/en/China

    Millions of ethnic Indians & Chinese live in SE Asia called Indochina:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Indians#Demographics
    http://factsanddetails.com/asian/cat66/sub418/item2729.html

    I never heard of any tensions between them there.
    Buddhism came to Tibet & China from India; the 1st Chan (Zen) Patriarch of the Shaolin Temple is Indian monk Da Mo who influenced its martial arts; Chinese monks traveled to India for sutras & there was Chinatown in Bombay/Mumbai. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_Mumbai

    The exiled Dalai Lama is still in N. India.
    Also, both India (189M) & China (up to 50M) + most of Pakistan (204M) have big Muslim populations:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country#Table
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-largest-muslim-populations.html

    NE India peoples r ethnically close to Chinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_India#Ethnic_groups

    In short, they have a lot more things in common than differences.
    All things considered, India could never become another "superpower pole", but with its large geography & population she won't become subservient to China under all circumstances, but in the long run will suffer more if she sides with the West & Japan against China, Iran & Pakistan, all of whom r now de-facto allied with Russia. The US already sanctions India for buying Iranian oil & Russian S-400.
    India, China agree to expand military ties after defence talks
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-china/india-china-agree-to-expand-military-ties-after-defence-talks-idUKKCN1L90GD

    China has & will have more CV/Ns than India.
    The Indians have no choice but to reach accommodation with the PRC & Pakistan; getting a new CV sooner won't change strategic balance in India's favor by much anyway. And they remember how Russia raised the price of the ex-Gorshkov long refit & may be reluctant to order this new CV at the expense of their own industry &/ other current/future programs & imports.
    "Tough shit" for the Russian CV/N program!
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    Post  LMFS Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:00 am

    @hoom:

    agree, this seems a very reasonable design. Would think nuclear propulsion should be installed together with GTs but this lets not forget this is just a proposal, not necessarily a design following MoDs requirements. Interestingly EMALs are included, would be great to have some price estimation for the ship.

    It is indeed remarkable the size of the overhang together with the low displacement, I am curious about the sea keeping capacities of it due to the first point.

    Also found curious the fact that lifts would take such central positions of the hangars. The space on the deck seems to have preference clearly. In Artic conditions this is not the best approach from what I know. But in parallel, that position of the lifts could allow to better enclose and protect the hangars

    Not sure that more armament and maybe VLS cells would increase the size of the ship notably, would make it more complicated and expensive but this always seemed to be the Russian approach.

    What I definitely agree is they should be able to reduce price and complexity through increased levels of automation. To keep 5000 people on a carrier like in US models is a major driver of its cost and complexity, should be possible to reduce that ostensibly.

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