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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Isos
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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 26 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  Isos Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 pm

    While things have evolved, US still uses same as it did since 80's and Russia is rebuilding for now and near future. Their enemy hasn't changed, and neither much on capabilities. So in regards, yes, Corvettes and frigates like Grigorovich fit right in for the needs of a small contingent carrier group, especially one escorting a jump jets on some transport vessel. Add in Kilo's and an auxillary ship, it's more than adequate.

    Super hornets can carry 4 harpoons each and they have 50+ of them on each carrier. Much better than what they had in the 80s.

    You think 2 larger vessels carrying more weapons will suffice better? No, it's still 1 large target. In the end, if something happens and any of those ships are hit, gloves are off and there is a lot more to worry about than some kind of Grigorovich ship.

    If you send only corvettes to protect your carrier because its better to lose them than a big frigate or a destroyer then it's better to build subs and no carrier at all. More weapons means more shots at one target so more Pk. The data given by Ru MoD for syrian Buk M2 shows that they used more missiles than there was targets so it wasn't a 99% Pk. If you have a very limited number of them on your ship, you can lose badly.


    You are making a lot of assumptions, especially based on nothing. You are aware if let's say a Yak-131 was still around and in numbers, it wouldn't be exactly the same craft then as it would be now, right? Or are you assuming Russia doesn't update it's aircraft fleet at all even legacy aircraft?

    Like they upgraded Su-33 ? I prefere the Super hornet level of upgrading than those outdated su-33. The upgrade for Yak 141 wouldn't be better than the upgrade for su-33. And the ship carrying them would be in a realy bad condition today after the Yeltsin 90s.




    They spend so much effort to counter US supercarriers I don't understand why they would go for their own ones. A smaller carrier is just enough. Russia has never had colonial/imperialist vision. They should focus on subs to counter US navy specially now that they can put hundreds of VLS cells for all kind of missiles and strike from hundreds of km away.
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 12:55 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Russia has today escort ships and submarines for aircraft carriers, that updated to the modern weapons, would be more than enough to escort more than one aircraft carrier.
    Pl. be so kind by providing the active pennant list of surface ships that can safely escort more than 1 TAKR/CVN into the open ocean, stay there for a few months, fight all possible surface, submarine & air threats if necessary & come back. If u think small/medium missile boats/corvettes/frigates can do it effectively than u never been in the real World Ocean cruises (pun intended), naval or civilian. But I have & sailed on the Black Sea, in the Pacific Ocean, from California to Hawaii & the Sea of Japan, in the E & S China Sea, the N. Indian Ocean, & the Arabian Sea/Gulf. Back up ur statements or don't waste my time!

    http://www.navypedia.org/ships/russia/ru_es.htm

    Includes (mine blue, red and green part):

    6. ESCORTS

    1. frigates and small frigates

    14. BDITELNYY large ASW ships (project 1135) (1970 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
    16! REZVYY large ASW ships (project 1135M) (1975 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
    19! NEUSTRASHIMYY guard ships (project 11540) (1993-2009) - 2 ships (1 of them reserve) - FFG
    22! TATARSTAN guard ships (project 11661K) (2003-2012) - 2 ships - FFG
    24! STEREGUSHCHIY corvettes (project 20380) (2007-) - 5 ships
    25! ADMIRAL GRIGOROVICH guard ships (project 11356) (2016-) - 3 ships - FFG
    26. ADMIRAL FLOTA SOVETSKOGO SOYUZA GORSHKOV frigates (project 22350)
    27. GREMIASHCHIY corvettes (project 20385)
    28. DERZKIY corvette (project 20386)
    29. IVAN PAPANIN patrol ships [project 23550]

    2. corvette size escorts

    11! MPK-147 small ASW ships (project 1124) (1970 - 1985) - 1 ship
    17! BURUN small missile ships (project 12341) (1977 - 1991) - 12 ships
    21! KIEVSKIY KOMSOMOLETS small ASW ships (project 1124M) (1982 - 1994) - 21 ships (2 of them reserve)
    23! MPK-192 small ASW ships (project 1331M) (1986 - 1990) - 6 ships
    27! MRK-27 small missile ships (air cushion) (project 1239) (1989 - 1992) - 2 ships
    28! ASTRAKHAN' large gun ships (project 21630) (2006 - 2012) - 3 ships
    29! GRAD SVIYAZHSK missile corvettes (project 21631) (2013-) - 5 ships
    30. VASILIY BYKOV patrol ships (project 22160)
    31. URAGAN small missile ships (project 22800)

    ©️ Ivan Gogin, 2009-18

    Designation in red from:

    http://russianships.info/eng/today/

    This includes all the current Russian combat ships between 500 and 5000 tons except 1 of the Project 61/01090 and 2 of the Project 11351, and includes all the Russian ships under construction between 500 and 10000 tons. The author does not include still the Project 23560 in the source.

    I personally do not think that ships of the Project 1144, Project 1164, Project 1155 and Project 956, not included in the previous list are totally incompatible with work as escort for Russian aircraft carriers. An escort fleet is a compromise between complementary ships, and more in the case of ships that are not multirole.

    Then, not included before:

    4. missile cruisers

    4. NIKOLAYEV large ASW ships (project 1134B) (1971 - 1979) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
    5! KIROV heavy nuclear powered missile cruisers (project 1144) (1980 - 1998) - 3 ships (2 of them reserve)
    6! SLAVA missile cruisers (project 1164) (1982 - 1989) - 3 ships - CG
    Project 23560

    2. destroyers

    55! KOMSOMOLETS UKRAINY large ASW ships (project 61) (1962 - 1972) - 1 ship - FFG
    58! SOVREMENNYY destroyers (project 956) (1980 - 1993) - 5 ships (2 of them reserve) - DDG
    59! UDALOY large ASW ships (project 1155) (1980 - 1991) - 8 ships (2 of them reserve)
    60! ADMIRAL CHABANENKO large ASW ship (project 1155.1) (1999) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)

    1. board guard ships

    16! MENZHINSKIY board guard ships (project 11351) (1983 - 1990) - 2 ships


    With the entire overview in front of us, it is easy to conclude that Russia has a complete and strong escort for 2 aircraft carriers even before the begin of the construction of the new ship.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon May 21, 2018 4:11 am; edited 3 times in total
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #2 - Page 26 Empty Re: Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 21, 2018 1:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:True, but I meant & they reportedly mull buying Chinese FFGs which r not strategic by any stretch.



    I've never heard about anything like this in Russian press/govt soruces



    Much bigger Mistrals was more of a lo$$ to France than to Russia after that deal was cancelled under US pressure after more strategically valuable Crimea (essentially an unsinkable CV) slipped out of Kiev & NATO grasp. So much for "French independent foreign policy". Now Egypt has them; later they may even be re-sold to Russia or some other 3rd country. Recall that Napoleon army raped Egypt ~200 years ago. In their 4K year history, it was like yesterday.

    True but countries have interests which are permanent not friends iam afraid. Mistrals was a great political move to break internally unity in west or made bad PR withing France for pro US forces. Financially was no really big deal for French economy.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 1:47 am

    If it's accurate, ur active list has only frigates and small frigates & large ASW ships-15; corvettes & gunships-46.
    Now divide their # by 3 & u'll get approx. # ready 24/7: 15/3+46/3=20.3 total. Since they r less capable, & even assuming their seakeeping is good, 2-3 times more of them r needed then DDG/CGs to escort TAKR/CVN. Let's say on average, & to be on the safe side, 6 per group: 20.3/6=3.3 CBGs can be escorted by them. Again, that's only FFGs & corvettes, most of which (if not all) r not suitable for 5-6 months cruises; only 1 in the list, Adm. Gorshkov & 3 Adm. Grigorovich + 2 ASW ships, 6 total, could act as a viable escort in the ocean zone, & their endurance is only 30 days before resupply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate

    They r comparable in size to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate .

    Only 1 such FFG escorts USN CVN, the rest r 1 CG & 3-4 DDGs.
    By ur own data, u lose ur argument!
    In early 2015, it was reported that Russia might consider buying 054A for its navy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_054A_frigate#Russia

    The August issue of Russia's National Defense Magazine has advised the country to buy warships from China to compensate for its own weakness in shipbuilding and to strengthen Russia's power in the Asia-Pacific region.
    China's Type 054A frigate may be an ideal option for Russia, the report said.
    With debate sparked by the suspension of a French delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships to Russia, the need to bring in escort ships is all the more pressing. Even if Russia receives the two warships — the Vladivostok and the Sevastopol — and integrates them into the fleet in the following two years, the current deploy of warships is far less from sufficient, said the article.
    Russia has few active battleships. There is only the Varyag missile cruiser and four Type-1155 destroyers for the country's large anti-submarine warships. These ships, all built during the Soviet era, are old, overused, and still engaged in cruising missions in the neighboring regions or anti-piracy campaigns off Africa. The rest include three Type-956 destroyers, which have been placed under long-term maintenance and are hardly functional, according to the report.
    A Mistral-class amphibious assault ship needs three to four escort ships, while other warships, including two Project 955 Borei-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, are also expected to enter service by the end of the year or early next year and will need escorts as well.
    Russia is incapable in this stage of filling in its shortage of escort warships, despite the many ships that are being constructed at the country's shipyards, said the report. The delivery of two Project 20380 corvettes from the Almaz Design Bureau has been delayed indefinitely, as well as the Type 22350 escort being assembled by the Northern Design Bureau, due to issues related to funding and inadequate facility technology.
    Ukraine, one of the few countries capable of producing combustion turbine engines, had been providing services to Russia before the sanction prohibiting the engine's export to the country. Other countries that could build combustion turbine engines include the US, the UK and China, said the report.
    China's Type 054A frigate, codenamed Jiangkai II by NATO, is a perfect fit for the Russian navy for many reasons. First of all, the model was designed and built with help from Russia's leading shipmaker, the Northern Design Bureau in St Petersburg. Second, the ship is equipped with weapons and electronic facilities that are designed according to the specs of samples, allowing the parts to be interchanged conveniently. Third, the advanced war ship meets Russian's demands for powerful weapons, invisibility, adaptability and endurance. Finally, the Type 054A frigate worked well with Russian flotillas well during the Russia-China military drill in May, which shows its capability to work side-by-side with Russian ships.
    The Type 054A frigate has a full displacement of 4,053 tonnes, is 134.1 meters long and 16 meters wide. The ship can reach a maximum speed at 27 kn. Its firearms include two sets of quadruple launchers for C-803 missiles, 32 vertical launching systems for HQ-16 missiles, one H/PJ26 stealthy 76mm dual purpose gun mount, two Type 730 seven-barrelled 30 mm Gatling gun close-in weapon systems, 2 x 3 324mm YU-7 ASW torpedo launchers, 2 x 6 Type 87 240mm anti-submarine rocket launchers, and can carry one Kamov Ka-28 "Helix" or Harbin Z-9C.
    Russia has been a mentor to China as it builds up its national defense technology. Now that the Chinese student has outpaced the Russian teacher, "there is no shame" asking for assistance from China, the report said.
    Exporting battleships to Russia would be a win-win situation for China, too, since the Russian ships could be leverage on the side of the PLA to balance the influence of US and Japanese maritime forces in the Asia-Pacific. https://web.archive.org/web/20141209030124/http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140930000078&cid=1101
    Russian media : the Russian warships 054A can be purchased from China is the best choice
    Given the rapid development of China’s shipbuilding industry, to 2018-2020 years ago the Russian Pacific Fleet can get 8-12 Type 054 frigate.
    According to the Russian military and political point of view network April 16 reported that the current is delivered on the French “Mistral class” helicopter dock landing ship has yet to quell unrest in Russia, put forward at this time to buy equipment for the Russian Navy’s topic is so outdated, Which is simply what pot does not open the pot. However, in our opinion, this question is more urgent than ever before.
    Russian Far East in the water giant marine areas lack of strength, if there are new ships to be fitted out, then the lack of suitable vessels for escort. Where then to get to meet the requirements of anti-submarine and surface ship escort task? Russia’s shipbuilding industry has accelerated the development of hybrid being, but faced difficulties due to various reasons. In particular, the outbreak of the crisis in Ukraine, Ukraine withdrew due to work force, many of the shipyard ordered work has been greatly affected.
    Why not buy it from China? China in particular is very close to the Russian warships requirements. Pacific Fleet escort lack of strength solutions are likely to be purchased directly from the Chinese warships.
    For decades, the former Soviet Union and Russia, indirectly or directly involved in the construction of Chinese People’s Liberation Army naval forces. Time flies. Now students have significantly outperformed their teacher (student surpasses the teacher), especially in the manufacturing field surface ships. Therefore, China should seek to cooperate. And strengthen Russia’s Far East Fleet beneficial to China, because they can help the Chinese navy balance with the US Navy and Japan Maritime Self-Defense forces, even get certain advantages.
    At present, China has built a number of different types of surface ships. In our opinion, is the most suitable for the Russian Navy Type 054A frigate. Type 054A frigate displacement of 4050 tons, 131 meters long, 16 meters wide. Diesel engines equipped economy, 054A-type cruise speed can be up to 27, cruising distance of up to 8,000 nautical miles. Can carry 165 people. Weaponry including two for combat at sea and ashore targets four C-803 missiles launchers, 32 red flag -16 Unai missiles, PJ26 type 76 mm automatic gun, two 730-type 30 mm rapid-fire guns recent anti-system , three 324 mm triple tube torpedo launchers and six anti-submarine rocket type device two 240mm mortar fire of. Has a hangar and can accommodate a card -28 or straight -9C apron.
    Type 054A frigate cause why Russia attention? There are several main reasons. First, Northern Design Bureau in St. Petersburg involved in the manufacture of this type of warship. Secondly, they are equipped with weapons and electronic equipment, such as a red flag -16 and PJ26 is based on the development of Russian weapons, that is, Russia can easily replace with domestic products. And according to reports, 054A also equipped with Russia’s CIM-335 sonar systems. Third, there is no doubt 054A type of ship performance, such as weapons systems, stealth, airworthiness and endurance are in line with the requirements of modern frigates. They are to and from the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean, Atlantic, Mediterranean and Black Sea waters illustrious warships. Finally, in last year’s “joint maritime -2014” exercise, with Russia are good, “Varyag” and other warships were to collaborate with and, simply put, they can be well integrated into the Russian fleet, You can quickly adapt to the environment in Russia.
    Given the rapid development of China’s shipbuilding industry, to 2018-2020 years ago the Russian Pacific Fleet can get 8-12 Type 054 frigate. This will significantly enhance Russia’s position in the region, and for the more advanced Russian-built ships provided the conditions.
    Original link: http://war.163.com/15/0417/13/ANDIU77K00014OVF.htm


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon May 21, 2018 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 2:46 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If it's accurate, ur active list has only frigates and small frigates & large ASW ships-15; corvettes & gunships-46.
    Now divide their # by 3 & u'll get approx. # ready 24/7: 15/3+46/3=20.3 total. Since they r less capable, & even assuming their seakeeping is good, 2-3 times more of them r needed then DDG/CGs to escort TAKR/CVN. Let's say on average, & to be on the safe side, 6 per group: 20.3/6=3.3 CBGs can be escorted by them. Again, that's only FFGs & corvettes, most of which (if not all) r not suitable for 5-6 months cruises; only 1 in the list, Adm. Gorshkov & 3 Adm. Grigorovich + 2 ASW ships, 6 total, could act as a viable escort in the ocean zone, & their endurance is only 30 days before resupply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate

    They r comparable in size to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate .

    Only 1 such FFG escorts USN CVN, the rest r 1 CG & 2-3 DDGs.
    By ur own data, u lose ur argument!

    Lol, you fail:

    - Doing the sums.
    - Calling guships to missile ships
    - Saying that only 1/3 is ready 24/7, the combat readiness of the Russian fleet  is significantly superior.

    Im editing my previous comment for you have a better reference of the entire fleet of Russian Warships, including which of them are CG, DDG and FFG.

    About the US escorts, it is necessar to say that the ships of both countries are diffierent, but as military concept the escort of one aircraft carrier is a sum of complementary ships that gives a total firepower that can be tied or surpassed by multiple combinations of ships. And with its current fleet Russia can tie or surpass the sum of the firepower of 1 US CG + 2/3 US DDG + 1 US FFG with multiple combinations, and can do it easily to sustain 2 aircraft carriers with complete escorts without problem.

    Russia has today a competent escort for the new aircraft carrier to be built in the next decade, even before the begin of the construction of the ship.
    As example what makes the Russian CGNs incompatible with to become part of the escort of aircraft carriers? Very powerful right?
    And the planned commissions and replacements only will improve the situation.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon May 21, 2018 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 21, 2018 2:59 am

    The August issue of Russia's National Defense Magazine has advised the country


    TO me it looks like private opinion of a columnist in one of magazines and not any official MoD source.  No negotiations were ever carried out or even planned.



    Tsavo Lion wrote:If it's accurate, ur active list has only frigates and small frigates & large ASW ships-15; corvettes & gunships-46.
    Now divide their # by 3 & u'll get approx. # ready 24/7: 15/3+46/3=20.3 total. Since they r less capable, & even assuming their seakeeping is good, 2-3 times more of them r needed then DDG/CGs to escort TAKR/CVN. Let's say on average, & to be on the safe side, 6 per group: 20.3/6=3.3 CBGs can be escorted by them. Again, that's only FFGs & corvettes, most of which (if not all) r not suitable for 5-6 months cruises; only 1 in the list, Adm. Gorshkov & 3 Adm. Grigorovich + 2 ASW ships, 6 total, could act as a viable escort in the ocean zone, & their endurance is only 30 days before resupply:


    As for rest-  why does Russia need huge fleet now ? There are no CVNs now and for next like 12 years wont be.  Current task of fleet is to defend own shores and economic interests like Sea of Okhotsk/Kamchatka or Northern route.
    Next years economy growth is far more important. There is new Konradtieff Cycle. Who wont get on board gets to the second league. For military and economic  reasons this is not acceptable
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 21, 2018 3:11 am

    Isos wrote: Yak-141 is pretty useless for combat operations. Any other decent fighter will have superiority over it with more range and more weapons. F-35 is not far from the yak in that role, it only has better rcs and better radar.


    Yak was concepr of 70s and build in 80s. So it is like half of century old. You know last 30years technology progressed a bit Cool Cool Cool Besides you already confimred then main-to-be US fighter is more less on same level so whatis the problem?




    But using them against many f-16 or f-15 or superhornets is useless spexially if you only have a few of them on your carrier

    what scenario do you recall now? RuNavy attacking US mainland? ekhm Let's agree to disagree. In any scenario going one to one or better on eto many CSGs is suicidal scanarion for Russian navy. Unless fighters use GZURs or kinzals. Then VSTOL fighters are more then enough.

    Intervention as Syria? well 20-30 fighters stationed for this all time?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 4:39 am

    4. NIKOLAYEV large ASW ships (project 1134B) (1971 - 1979) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
    5! KIROV heavy nuclear powered missile cruisers (project 1144) (1980 - 1998) - 3 ships (2 of them reserve)
    6! SLAVA missile cruisers (project 1164) (1982 - 1989) - 3 ships - CG Project 23560
    2. destroyers
    55! KOMSOMOLETS UKRAINY large ASW ships (project 61) (1962 - 1972) - 1 ship - FFG [or is it a DDG?]
    58! SOVREMENNYY destroyers (project 956) (1980 - 1993) - 5 ships (2 of them reserve) - DDG
    59! UDALOY large ASW ships (project 1155) (1980 - 1991) - 8 ships (2 of them reserve)
    60! ADMIRAL CHABANENKO large ASW ship (project 1155.1) (1999) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
    1. board guard ships
    16! MENZHINSKIY board guard ships (project 11351) (1983 - 1990) - 2 ships
    Fine, from the above quote, they have active, not counting those in reserve that need refits: 1 CGN, 3 CGs, 9 ASW/DDGs. The 2 Border Guard ships won't be escorting CVNs all the way, unless they r transferred to the VMF, & should be excluded. So, dividing by 3, they have avail. 24/7:
    1/3 CGN+CG+3 ASW/DDGs, & that's across all 4 fleets.
    But, for combat sustainability, 1 CBG needs at least 1 CG/N + 2-3 ASW/DDGs. So, again ur data show that they don't have enough escorts for more. In the articles I quoted, they themselves said that there isn't enough surface escorts for LHA/LHDs & SSBNs, much less for TAKR/CVNs. Have a nice day!
    TO me it looks like private opinion of a columnist in one of magazines and not any official MoD source.  No negotiations were ever carried out or even planned.
    Who asked for the press reports? U did. No1 asked me for the official news. Info. on secret negotiations won't be avail. to us, but if they weren't, they could be conducted in the future.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Fine, from the above quote, they have active, not counting those in reserve that need refits: 1 CGN, 3 CGs, 9 ASW/DDGs. The 2 Border Guard ships won't be escorting CVNs all the way, unless they r transferred to the VMF, & should be excluded. So, dividing by 3, they have avail. 24/7:
    1/3 CGN+CG+3 ASW/DDGs, & that's across all 4 fleets.
    But, for combat sustainability, 1 CBG needs at least 1 CG/N + 2-3 ASW/DDGs. So, again ur data show that they don't have enough escorts for more. In the articles I quoted, they themselves said that there isn't enough surface escorts for LHA/LHDs & SSBNs, much less for TAKR/CVNs. Have a nice day!

    Lol

    1.- First you quote only a part excluding almost all the most specific escort ships.
    2.- Second you exclude the ships that will be the best armed of the Russian fleet in 1 or 2 years because the are being upgraded now and are in the reserve.
    3.- Then you magically divide the fleet by 3. Because you want.
    4.- And then you divide the result in the "4 fleets".
    5.- Finally you say without any shame what you wanted since the begin.

    For you remind the whole picture of available ships to escort:

    eehnie wrote:http://www.navypedia.org/ships/russia/ru_es.htm

    Includes (mine blue, red and green part):

    6. ESCORTS

    1. frigates and small frigates

    14. BDITELNYY large ASW ships (project 1135) (1970 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
    16! REZVYY large ASW ships (project 1135M) (1975 - 1981) - 1 ship - FFG
    19! NEUSTRASHIMYY guard ships (project 11540) (1993-2009) - 2 ships (1 of them reserve) - FFG
    22! TATARSTAN guard ships (project 11661K) (2003-2012) - 2 ships - FFG
    24! STEREGUSHCHIY corvettes (project 20380) (2007-) - 5 ships
    25! ADMIRAL GRIGOROVICH guard ships (project 11356) (2016-) - 3 ships - FFG
    26. ADMIRAL FLOTA SOVETSKOGO SOYUZA GORSHKOV frigates (project 22350)
    27. GREMIASHCHIY corvettes (project 20385)
    28. DERZKIY corvette (project 20386)
    29. IVAN PAPANIN patrol ships [project 23550]

    2. corvette size escorts

    11! MPK-147 small ASW ships (project 1124) (1970 - 1985) - 1 ship
    17! BURUN small missile ships (project 12341) (1977 - 1991) - 12 ships
    21! KIEVSKIY KOMSOMOLETS small ASW ships (project 1124M) (1982 - 1994) - 21 ships (2 of them reserve)
    23! MPK-192 small ASW ships (project 1331M) (1986 - 1990) - 6 ships
    27! MRK-27 small missile ships (air cushion) (project 1239) (1989 - 1992) - 2 ships
    28! ASTRAKHAN' large gun ships (project 21630) (2006 - 2012) - 3 ships
    29! GRAD SVIYAZHSK missile corvettes (project 21631) (2013-) - 5 ships
    30. VASILIY BYKOV patrol ships (project 22160)
    31. URAGAN small missile ships (project 22800)

    ©️ Ivan Gogin, 2009-18

    Designation in red from:

    http://russianships.info/eng/today/

    This includes all the current Russian combat ships between 500 and 5000 tons except 1 of the Project 61/01090 and 2 of the Project 11351, and includes all the Russian ships under construction between 500 and 10000 tons. The author does not include still the Project 23560 in the source.

    I personally do not think that ships of the Project 1144, Project 1164, Project 1155 and Project 956, not included in the previous list are totally incompatible with work as escort for Russian aircraft carriers. An escort fleet is a compromise between complementary ships, and more in the case of ships that are not multirole.

    Then, not included before:

    4. missile cruisers

    4. NIKOLAYEV large ASW ships (project 1134B) (1971 - 1979) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)
    5! KIROV heavy nuclear powered missile cruisers (project 1144) (1980 - 1998) - 3 ships (2 of them reserve)
    6! SLAVA missile cruisers (project 1164) (1982 - 1989) - 3 ships - CG
    Project 23560

    2. destroyers

    55! KOMSOMOLETS UKRAINY large ASW ships (project 61) (1962 - 1972) - 1 ship - FFG
    58! SOVREMENNYY destroyers (project 956) (1980 - 1993) - 5 ships (2 of them reserve) - DDG
    59! UDALOY large ASW ships (project 1155) (1980 - 1991) - 8 ships (2 of them reserve)
    60! ADMIRAL CHABANENKO large ASW ship (project 1155.1) (1999) - 1 ship (1 of them reserve)

    1. board guard ships

    16! MENZHINSKIY board guard ships (project 11351) (1983 - 1990) - 2 ships


    With the entire overview in front of us, it is easy to conclude that Russia has a complete and strong escort for 2 aircraft carriers even before the begin of the construction of the new ship.

    And do not forget that a escort fleet has a total firepower that can be reached by multiple combinations.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 5:34 am

    Those not actually on standby & now waiting for refit/overhaul & for whatever other reasons can't be counted as ready for sea & combat, period; u must have at least 3 active units to have 1 available 24/7. That's the basics! Ur problem is that u always count them all, regardless of their class & current readiness. U might as well count all auxiliary & merchant ships of comparable tonnage too, since they can be armed & used by the VMF.
    I'm tired of having to lecture u! Don't bother to reply!
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 7:19 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Those not actually on standby & now waiting for refit/overhaul & for whatever other reasons can't be counted as ready for sea & combat, period; u must have at least 3 active units to have 1 available 24/7. That's the basics! Ur problem is that u always count them all, regardless of their class & current readiness. U might as well count all auxiliary & merchant ships of comparable tonnage too, since they can be armed & used by the VMF.
    I'm tired of having to lecture u! Don't bother to reply!

    Just because I know about the current readiness of the ships of the list I count all them.

    Your 1/3 rule is doubtbul, at least, but even being real, you should apply it also to the aircraft carriers, not only to the escort ships.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 7:47 am

    I do apply it carriers, which Russia has & will have for long time to come only 1, even after the upcoming 3 year refit & overhaul is over. Naval contingencies can arise at any time, any place on the World Ocean- hence the 3:1 ratio in calculating the # of units needed to meet them. U can doubt & believe anything u feel like, but the laws & facts of physics, geography, naval theory, etc. will remain, regardless whether u or any1 else knows, understands & believes in them or not. Enough said.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon May 21, 2018 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos Mon May 21, 2018 9:37 am

    Yak was concepr of 70s and build in 80s. So it is like half of century old. You know last 30years technology progressed a bit Cool Cool Cool Besides you already confimred then main-to-be US fighter is more less on same level so whatis the problem?




    what scenario do you recall now? RuNavy attacking US mainland? ekhm Let's agree to disagree. In any scenario going one to one or better on eto many CSGs is suicidal scanarion for Russian navy. Unless fighters use GZURs or kinzals. Then VSTOL fighters are more then enough.

    Intervention as Syria? well 20-30 fighters stationed for this all time?

    F-35 weapons load is a joke compared to f-18.

    Yak 141 has 4 hardpoint for weapons and another central one for tanker fuel. That's just useless.

    What scenario do you take into account when you design a carrier ? Fighting some poor huys in syria armed with ak-47 or fighting against a big navy like Japan, Uk, usa or others ... I think it's the second one. All those countries have lot of fighters/bombers better than yak-141.

    30 years later the main planes of russia are still the one USSR produced. Su-57 is still not finished. Why do you think a yak-141 would have beed ready today ?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon May 21, 2018 12:47 pm

    Isos wrote:

    F-35 weapons load is a joke compared to f-18.


    like 7 vs 8 tons? F35B vs SH 18



    Yak 141 has 4 hardpoint for weapons and another central one for tanker fuel. That's just useless.


    Why Yak 141 and not A-7? bot could be used 30 years ago... we are talking about




    What scenario do you take into account when you design a carrier ? Fighting some poor huys in syria armed with ak-47 or fighting against a big navy like Japan, Uk, usa or others ... I think it's the second one. All those countries have lot of fighters/bombers better than yak-141.

    So 1 max 2 Russian CV fightign 11 US + 2 British ones? so you wan tto build CV just to show off and suicidal mission? interesting concept. Midway style is I am afraid long passed. We are talkign about 2030s +


    30 years later the main planes of Russia are still the one USSR produced. Su-57 is still not finished. Why do you think a yak-141 would have beed ready today ?
    Us and EU too ;-) Show me new ones in west?


    Why Yak -141?! whis was 30yo construction based on almost 50yo design. You would have more like F-35B IMHO less stealth but better fighter.







    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    TO me it looks like private opinion of a columnist in one of magazines and not any official MoD source.  No negotiations were ever carried out or even planned.
    Who asked for the press reports? U did. No1 asked me for the official news. Info. on secret negotiations won't be avail. to us, but if they weren't, they could be conducted in the future.


    They werent and they wont. As for providing link with columnist opinion t thanks Smile
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 4:20 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:I do apply it carriers, which Russia has & will have for long time to come only 1, even after upcoming 3 year refit & overhaul. Naval contingencies can arise at any time, any place on the World Ocean, hence the 3:1 ratio in calculating the # of units needed to meet them.
    U can doubt & believe anything u feel like, but the laws & facts of physics, geography, naval theory, etc. will remain regardless whether u or any1 believes in them or not. Enough said.

    You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to  say that Russia has not escort for them.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon May 21, 2018 5:10 pm

    From what i can see, the Carrier is still the better option, news from Naval Command seems to confirm this on their end, and as for escort force, right now there is only a need to escort 1 carrier, since the Kuz is gonna be relegated as a training carrier as soon as the a new carrier is done.

    In total an absolute max of 4 carriers feels like the minimum necessary for constant combat readiness, the Northern and Pacific fleet one in maintenance the other active in each fleet and the Kuz for training, but for now 2 will do just fine for one fleet.

    From what i hear, the Naval command is most likely going the use the old Kiev-class as their main argument, they'll most likely point to the current situation as history repeating itself, and argue that it is more financially beneficial to invest in Carriers now rather than be forced to invest in both later.

    Since they've given up on the Shtorm and are now focusing on a more Medium Carrier, the MoD might be more inclined to give their approval, the argument could also work with the MoF, but we'll have to wait and see.

    IMO, it ain't gonna happen.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 6:12 pm

    You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to say that Russia has not escort for them.
    We r using different logic & level of analysis. For 1 TAKR there r enough escorts, but currently for 1 more TAKR/CVN there r not.
    Nor there's any $ to build it, otherwise they wouldn't have offered Storm CVN to India before being able to order it for their own VMF.
    From what i hear, the Naval command is most likely going the use the old Kiev-class as their main argument, ..
    Since they've given up on the Storm and are now focusing on a more Medium Carrier, the MoD might be more inclined to give their approval, the argument could also work with the MoF, but we'll have to wait and see. IMO, it ain't gonna happen.
    IMO, they could buy back the 2 Kiev-class TAKRs now in PRC, refit, & use them for mostly training as a stopgap.
    Pl. clarify: what ain't gonna happen?
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    Post  kumbor Mon May 21, 2018 6:28 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to  say that Russia has not escort for them.
    We r using different logic & level of analysis. For 1 TAKR there r enough escorts, but currently for 1 more TAKR/CVN there r not.
    Nor there's any $ to build it, otherwise they wouldn't have offered Storm CVN to India before being able to order it for their own VMF.
    From what i hear, the Naval command is most likely going the use the old Kiev-class as their main argument, ..
    Since they've given up on the Storm and are now focusing on a more Medium Carrier, the MoD might be more inclined to give their approval, the argument could also work with the MoF, but we'll have to wait and see. IMO, it ain't gonna happen.
    IMO, they could buy back the 2 Kiev-class TAKRs now in PRC, refit, & use them for mostly training as a stopgap.
    Pl. clarify: what ain't gonna happen?

    These ships are in maritime sense pure hulks in China. They are used as attraction parks. However, Chinese had studied them thoroughly when bought as scrap metal.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon May 21, 2018 6:33 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Pl. clarify: what ain't gonna happen?

    The approval from the MoD.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 6:57 pm

    Correction:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate .
    Only 1 such FFG escorts USN CVN, the rest r 1 CG & 3-4 DDGs.
    Thus, the Russian CVN will need at least 2-3 DDG escorts if they know what's good for them!
    To have them ready 24/7:
    3CVNs x 2DDGs X 3=18DDGs;
    3CVNs x 3DDGs X 3=27DDGs;
    4 CVNs x 2DDGs X 3=24 DDGs;
    4 CVNs X 3DDGs X 3=36DDGs. It's safe to say that it will take a long time before they get their #s to cover both escort duties & other tasks outside of that!
    These ships are in maritime sense pure hulks in China. They are used as attraction parks.
    At least 1 of them has bankrupted its former owner:

    Minsk became the centerpiece of a military theme park in Yantian district, Shatoujiao (沙头角) sub-district, Shenzhen called Minsk World. However, the Shenzhen Minsk company went bankrupt in 2006, and the carrier was put up for auction on 22 March 2006. On 31 May 2006, the carrier was sold in Shenzhen for 128 million RMB to CITIC Shenzhen.
    The ship was again sold to Dalian Yongjia Group, a real estate company in Dalian in North China, on 1 Jannary 2013.[6] On 3 April 2016, Chinese news reported the aircraft carrier had been towed to a new destination, Zhoushan for refit,[7] because of the decline of the number of tourists after 2006. After the refit is completed, the ship would be taken to Nantong on the Yangtse River in Jiangsu Province and moored to the west of Sutong Yangtze River Bridge as part of a new theme park that will be opened in 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Minsk
    In 1996 Kiev was sold to Binhai Aircraft Park, a theme park in Tianjin, China. The concept was developed by world tourism and attraction consultant Leisure Quest International.
    In August 2011, the ex-Kiev was developed into a luxury hotel after renovations costing £9.6 million.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Kiev#Post-service_life
    The Ex-Adm Gorshkov was modified in Russia as a CV for India. They could do the same with ex-Minsk for the VMF & faster than building a new TAKRs/CVs.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon May 21, 2018 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon May 21, 2018 7:13 pm

    Isos wrote:......
    What scenario do you take into account when you design a carrier ? Fighting some poor huys in syria armed with ak-47 .....

    This is only application aircraft carrier has in this day and age, if they plan on building one they should design it accordingly

    Midway will not be happening again
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 7:40 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    You fool no-one man, you have been clearly comparing 1/3 of the fleet with the total number of aircraft carriers to  say that Russia has not escort for them.
    We r using different logic & level of analysis. For 1 TAKR there r enough escorts, but currently for 1 more TAKR/CVN there r not.
    Nor there's any $ to build it, otherwise they wouldn't have offered Storm CVN to India before being able to order it for their own VMF.

    And your logic is totally wrong.

    Russia plans to have 2 aircraft carriers by the late 2020s.

    And Russia has today:

    06 warships over 10000 tons (2 of them reserve, to become in one or two years the best armed ships of the Russian combat fleet).
    15 warships between 5000 and 10000 tons (6 of them reserve)
    17 warships between 1500 and 5000 tons (1 of them reserve)
    50 warships between 500 and 1500 tons (2 of them reserve)

    88 total warships potentially available to do multiple escort designs to reach a total combined firepower that the US reachs with 1 CG 2/3 DDG and 1 FFG.

    Some people live out of the reality. And others try to paint a negative reality that does not exist.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon May 21, 2018 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 8:08 pm

    15 warships between 5000 and 10000 tons (6 of them reserve)
    17 warships between 1500 and 5000 tons (1 of them reserve)
    50 warships between 500 and 1500 tons (2 of them reserve)
    How good those ships under 5000 tons can be as escorts in the "far oceanic zone" were CVNs will sail & spend up to 5-6 months?
    A: they r more of a burden than an asset, considering that even bigger FFGs will be less than adequate for some threats:
    https://topwar.ru/141831-vmf-rossii-v-shage-ot-provala-v-globalnoy-gonke-sredstv-strategicheskoy-morskoy-pro.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-05-18/1_996_atlantic.html

    So, with only 9 ships now not in reserve (that # may increase or decrease in the next decade & beyond), at the top of ur list, 9/3 & 9/2 (if an exception can be made here) =only 3-4 r ready 24/7. Again, across all 4 fleets, 2 of which r separated by 11 time zones:
    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/russia

    Recently they had to send Varyag CG from the Pac. Fleet to the E. Med. Sea as nothing else was available from the other 3 fleets that r separated by the European landmass; it took at least a 9-10 days to get there. The same with ships sailing from their Kola & Baltic bases.
    These factors must be taken into account if u want the real world situation more accurately reflected in ur understanding of it.
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    Post  eehnie Mon May 21, 2018 10:20 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    15 warships between 5000 and 10000 tons (6 of them reserve)
    17 warships between 1500 and 5000 tons (1 of them reserve)
    50 warships between 500 and 1500 tons (2 of them reserve)
    How good those ships under 5000 tons can be as escorts in the "far oceanic zone" were CVNs will sail & spend up to 5-6 months?
    A: they r more of a burden than an asset, considering that even bigger FFGs will be less than adequate for some threats:
    https://topwar.ru/141831-vmf-rossii-v-shage-ot-provala-v-globalnoy-gonke-sredstv-strategicheskoy-morskoy-pro.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-05-18/1_996_atlantic.html

    So, with only 9 ships now not in reserve (that # may increase or decrease in the next decade & beyond), at the top of ur list, 9/3 & 9/2 (if an exception can be made here)  =only 3-4 r ready 24/7. Again, across all 4 fleets, 2 of which r separated by 11 time zones:
    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/russia

    Recently they had to send Varyag CG from the Pac. Fleet to the E. Med. Sea as nothing else was available from the other 3 fleets that r separated by the European landmass; it took at least a 9-10 days to get there. The same with ships sailing from their Kola & Baltic bases.
    These factors must be taken into account if u want the real world situation more accurately reflected in ur understanding of it.

    Unable to do the sums... and the ships over 10000 tons (CG and CGN)?

    Russia has 6+15=21 ships over 5000 tons today (2+6=8 of them in the reserve) plus 9 more under construction.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon May 21, 2018 11:01 pm

    Those in reserve & under construction better not be counted! Even after their reactivation/induction, some of those active now will take their place in the yards.
    By ur #s, over 10000 tons (CG and CGN) 21-8=13 active now. 13/3 or 13/2= 4-6 ready 24/7, in all 4 fleets. Since they don't have enough DDGs/FFGs yet, 2 per group r needed. Will that be enough to escort 3-4 LHAs/LHDs + 1-3 CVNs + go on other deployments they may be called to do?

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