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    Chinese Navy potential threat for the Russian Navy

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:38 pm

    Isos wrote:The crisis in eastern ukraine destroyed ukraine. China doesnt want the same to happen in HK.

    Ukraine was destroyed by a violent coup by Ultra-nationalists and Banderite Nazis, and their subsequent armed pogrom against Russian speakers. A massive increase in corruption sealed the deal.

    How is that relevent to China??? You may not want to accept reality, but the average Chinese is very supportive of their government and they think the nation is heading in the right direction. It isn't "commie propaganda" or "brainwashing" that makes them think this, but the clear and obvious improvements arond them and the rapidly modernising state of the nation. People see it, and they approve.

    Isos wrote:If this propaganda touches other parts of China it will destroy them. They can't let HKers win against HK gov (supported by China) but they can't neither send in the PLA because it will be brutal.

    China has so many more tools in its warchest than simply sending in the troops, but they don't need to anything just yet. The HK gov has played soft-ball up to now, and hasn't wanted to wield the stick, but if these anarchist thugs continue and the HK economy takes a dive, they will be forced to act, and it won't be the CCP that makes the call but the HK elites who don't want to see a collapse of their little fiefdom.

    Ypu need to stop reading the rubbish written by "experts" in our elite-owned corporate MSM echo chambers. They are nothing but whores and peddlers of mistruth, making a living by willingly serving the rich & powerful. They will say what their benefactors want to hear.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:52 am

    To be honest, I still cant believe this thread exists and so much discussion going on here.

    I am glad it exists, because otherwise I would not have heard Big Gazzas post or KVS's reply above (posts 121 and 122).

    Now I understand what is happening... thanks for spelling it out and making it clear.

    Now that you do spell it out it makes sense and now seems pretty obvious... the HKers are just as jealous as the west over development and progress in China, and this is them acting out... and trying to damage it... just like the west... the Brits have taught them all they know.

    This thread is 99.9% the handywork of the same J-20Hotdog/etc, who goes all around with his highly racial, anti-chinese agenda and draws in unsuspecting poster into posting and thus succeeding in his agendas.

    Except that it hasn't worked.

    I know plenty of Chinese people and I like the vast majority, they are good people. I have no reason to fear a growing China than I do an all powerful last super power America... many of the Americans I know are good people too, but certainly less humble...

    This thread has not descended into threats and anger... I think China with a strong navy is a good thing, but those supporting China need to realise that a strong navy isn't just having the hardware. As I have mentioned, Saudi Arabia has the hardware... on paper they are better equipped than most of the smaller NATO members, but they are terribly vulnerable in many areas.

    As mentioned in the news recently, China, for all its production and spending on weapons doens't have a missile warning system to organise defence against a strategic attack... Russia is helping them out with that and in return China is apparently helping Russia with a few things too... this will make China stronger and better prepared and it will also help Russia too... what is not to like?
    China getting stronger and developing is not a problem for Russia, and Russia getting stronger and developing is not a problem for China either.

    It is not a problem for the US and NATO except that they make it so.

    The crisis in eastern ukraine destroyed ukraine. China doesnt want the same to happen in HK.

    China would be shit scared of something bad happening to Hong Kong, because it was the one part of China that was totally modern and economically powerful... but as Gazza and KVS have mentioned, now it is the red headed kid talking about freedom and rights like it knows better than mom and dad do about life and how things work in the real world. Maybe red headed child needs a good kicking... or at least a sudden dose of reality so it pulls its head in and starts behaving... it is not the golden boy it used to be... their other kids have grown up and are doing a better job of it without the British heritage bullshit.

    If this propaganda touches other parts of China it will destroy them.

    What you are saying here is that Russia can't let Russian people watch western media because if they do they will find out how evil and manipulative Putin really is and they will over throw him. It is the western people and the Hong Kong people here who are deluded... the BS propaganda that works on them wont work on the general population because the general population know better... they know what the situation was like in the 1990s and they know what effect Putin has had since then on their lives.

    The people of mainland China are not a group of simple peasants eeking out an existence on a collective farm, or living in some deathtrap soviet era apartment complex with a million other people per square kilometre... as BG mentioned... many Chinese cities are doing better than Hong Kong... but without its congestion or limited space issues.

    They can't let HKers win against HK gov (supported by China) but they can't neither send in the PLA because it will be brutal.

    They have Americans and Ukrainian Nazis on their side... how can they win?

    This will create more laws in the US to help those poor freedom fighters from that evil Chinese empire, which will mean Apple and other companies will withdraw production from China... Trump will salivate at that hoping they will create jobs in the US but it is too expensive, so they will probably go to Bangladesh, or perhaps somewhere in Africa... but Chinese companies will step up to the plate... for a while the Chinese consumers will suffer, but those American companies will bribe and cheat and get their products in there... but I suspect the Chinese companies are at a point where they can probably develop better products anyway so I actually think this will be good for China... China will likely focus on their Silk Roads and the Russian North Sea Route and trade with the EU instead of the US and ultimately it will the the US that gets shafted over all of this.

    It isn't "commie propaganda" or "brainwashing" that makes them think this, but the clear and obvious improvements arond them and the rapidly modernising state of the nation. People see it, and they approve.

    I remember in the late 1990s a british reporter in Beijing was interviewing a CEO of some American car company based in China and the American pointed out the window... and there were thousands of cars going past the building they were in... and he said when he arrived in China less than ten years before the traffic outside was all bicycles. Without a single hint of guilt, he said that at that point the Chinese in big cities were converting to cars, but his companys goal was to have the same effect out in the countryside too and the smaller towns and villages and have everyone driving cars instead of push bikes...

    Getting China and India to consume like the US does is what is killing this planet... the western disposable consumer society is horrendously wasteful and destructive and you could see it coming a mile away...


    China has so many more tools in its warchest than simply sending in the troops, but they don't need to anything just yet. The HK gov has played soft-ball up to now, and hasn't wanted to wield the stick, but if these anarchist thugs continue and the HK economy takes a dive, they will be forced to act, and it won't be the CCP that makes the call but the HK elites who don't want to see a collapse of their little fiefdom.

    The other irony is that 30 or more years ago this sort of wedge between a growing economy and the US would be economically fatal, but these days it is more a rite of passage... I think it will be good for China to break its trade ties with the US as will happen when HK ends up having to take real action... the west will claim it is hitler and stalin all rolled in to one, but the sanctions wont hurt China nearly as much as the west will hope it will, and lets face it people... be honest... the US is only 350-400 million people and most of them are not that wealthy any more... the US has a 22 trillion dollar debt and rising... it is in Chinas interests to look at other markets with more people... with people with money to spend, who are not mortgaged up to their eyeballs, and pay in real money that is not printed as it is needed and basically worthless when the brown stuff hits the whirling bits of plastic that shift air around the office...
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:32 am

    GarryB wrote:
    If you mean can't the PLA could march into HK and fix the issue with ease, they simply don't wish to do that right now.

    Amusing... Russia fan boys are called up on the slow construction rate... we are saying they are getting the basics right on the smaller ships so that they will be right on the bigger ships to come. The technology is modular and scalable... it is not like the UKSK launcher on a Corvette is different to one on a Cruiser, so once all the problems are sorted out for the smaller ships on which they are new technology, then not only will the smaller ships be able to be mass produced in large production runs to suit the needs of the Russian Navy, but those systems and modules should be more mature and developed so larger vessels should be quicker and easier to get right and in production too.

    When we say there is no point in rushing in to mass production until they get everything working... otherwise they might end up like the F-35 with 300 in service but still with hundreds of problems that need to be fixed... it is cheaper to get it right and then mass produce than to mass produce and try to fix problems as they come up... which is likely what China is doing.

    The PLA wont march in to HK because the west will turn on them fully and all that money they make in western markets will dry up... which wont destroy their economy... they have enough people to sell products to themselves, but it will seriously stunt their growth and development and might lead to things they really don't want... like the US fully supporting Taiwan and lots of other countries doing the same resulting in Taiwan declaring full independence from China... which could be very very serious... and really not what China wants at all.

    The Value of Hong Kong is that it is an economic centre used by many who would not do the same in China... if they seize HK it stops being HK that it is now.

    I see people talking fantasy crap all the time when it's positive for Russia but if it's negative then it's "Pathetic fantasy".

    Pathetic = western government funded. Like rebellion in Siberia, or ISIS in control of Syria, or Russians actually going to the Ukraine to fight Ukrainians... you know... bullshit... specifically in this case it is China fighting Russia or India fighting China, because that would suit the US and the west right down to the ground... they would love it and they would do everything to encourage it and make it worse for all parties involved. They don't give a shit about who gets killed... look at the mourning the Syrian and Libyan and Iraqi dead because of what they do?

    So fantasy you like is okay but the fantasy you don't like is bad, Mhm of course.

    Oh please... giving lectures on double standards... are you still in Syria stealing Assads oil Mr Terrorist?

    What does build rates for the Russians have to do with a problem for HK and China, HK doesn't even make up a big percent of Chinese budget...I am ignoring this pointless rant.

    The statement was EASY to read. The Chinese army could March into HK and fix the problem but that would require brute force the Government is unwilling to use at this moment.


    Garry I call stuff like I see it good or bad for even the US. I haven't pushed Western propaganda I have stated facts and if people don't like it tough luck. So you are barking up the wrong tree.


    Except like 99 percent of people on this forum I double standards, when the US is wrong I say it, when Russia is wrong I say it. Really need to post that needless rant hey whatever suits you. You should try it sometime an objective mind is a wonderful thing.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:26 pm

    ]What does build rates for the Russians have to do with a problem for HK and China, HK doesn't even make up a big percent of Chinese budget...I am ignoring this pointless rant.

    This thread is about the rise of the Chinese navy and what threat, if any that poses to the Russian Navy... look for yourself at the name of the thread if you wont take my word for it...

    The issues China is having in HK will effect its future... depending on how it is handled, which will probably effect how the Chinese navy grows and develops, and Russian ship production rates would seriously effect what threat, if any a future Chinese navy would pose... if they stop making ships completely then even a steady increase would increase Chinas naval potential vs the Russian navy, whereas if Russia is sensible but consistent and gets mature corvette and frigate designs into mass production, and scales them up efficiently to create quality destroyers and cruisers then you could say the Russian navys future is going to be stable and it will be able to perform its missions... of course Russian ships wouldn't fight Chinese ships... Russia has missiles and aircraft that can do that much more efficiently, though they are designed to take on larger US forces, they will do for Chinese or British or French ships too.

    The Chinese army could March into HK and fix the problem but that would require brute force the Government is unwilling to use at this moment.

    This is not really Chinas problem, it is the government in Hong Kong that needs to sort this out... if the army needs to go in, it will likely be units from Hong Kong and not Main Land China.

    Garry I call stuff like I see it good or bad for even the US. I haven't pushed Western propaganda I have stated facts and if people don't like it tough luck. So you are barking up the wrong tree.

    So I like fantasy and you are impartial and fair.... riiight... I start all my most racist jokes with "I don't want to sound racist but... "

    I am not biased but Assad is evil and I kill people in a country I am in illegally while helping groups locally designated as terrorists, but I am not a propaganda mouthpiece... I speak the truth... whatever that used to be.

    You should try it sometime an objective mind is a wonderful thing.

    Fuck objective. Objective is pretending to see it from the other side but not actually doing so... the BBC says it is objective and showing all sides of the picture... objective is propaganda code for believe what I say without checking and hopefully when I say the opposite really happened in a months time on the 54th page in the bottom corner in Braille you will already believe it to be true.

    To paraphrase Senator George Bush Snr in the Mid 1980s... "I don't care what the facts are... America is not to blame".

    It is funny... 10 years ago when I did a search for this statement I got multiple hits... long lists in fact... now nothing... do you think the internet is not censored?

    Because of that I have adopted GWBs mantra... I don't care what the facts are... America is to blame...

    On 99% of issues I will be right, and the other 1% I doubt I will care.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:19 am

    The PLAN would be too busy engaging the USN & JMSDF which may help Russia in a hypothetical war with China.

    Yeah, like the US helped Russia in Syria and Georgia and the Ukraine because the US is Russias best buddy.

    The Americans would be more likely to slip China information to help them against Russia... and information to Russia to help them against China and suggest to India that this might be their chance to attack China while China is weak and then sit back and watch the show as countries they fundamentally hate destroy each other...

    A conflict where Russia fights China is in Russian favour because even with this massive build up Chinas navy is still not as big or as powerful as a NATO navy they train and orient themselves to engage... they have never planned to meet NATO on equal terms with an equal number of ships and subs and carriers... they are planning to use the firepower of very high performance anti ship missiles to deal with the threat and that solution works just fine against any smaller navy too.... they were never planning to fight fair and send out corvettes to meet US carriers... the future plans of he Russian Navy clearly include aircraft carriers... just not now... otherwise the K would be scrapped along with the MiG-29KR and they would likely be looking hard at land based Su-57 to protect their coastline and Arctic regions.

    The fact that they have developed Zircon and are working on lots of other weapons like that including 1,500km range Grom missiles carried by tactical fighter planes means they want to defend their country from powerful enemy forces... the west or China, but more likely the west because it seems the west cannot open dialog with Russia without blaming it for everything imposing sanctions and delivering unfounded accusations followed by ultimatums... there is no talking to such people...

    China and Russia in comparison are able to discuss all sorts of things and to work together... they aren't best buddies and are certainly not joined at the hip and they disagree on a few things, but that does not mean they can't get along and do some great things.
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The PLAN would be too busy engaging the USN & JMSDF which may help Russia in a hypothetical war with China.

    Yeah, like the US helped Russia in Syria and Georgia and the Ukraine because the US is Russias best buddy.

    The Americans would be more likely to slip China information to help them against Russia... and information to Russia to help them against China and suggest to India that this might be their chance to attack China while China is weak and then sit back and watch the show as countries they fundamentally hate destroy each other...

    A conflict where Russia fights China is in Russian favour because even with this massive build up Chinas navy is still not as big or as powerful as a NATO navy they train and orient themselves to engage... they have never planned to meet NATO on equal terms with an equal number of ships and subs and carriers... they are planning to use the firepower of very high performance anti ship missiles to deal with the threat and that solution works just fine against any smaller navy too.... they were never planning to fight fair and send out corvettes to meet US carriers... the future plans of he Russian Navy clearly include aircraft carriers... just not now... otherwise the K would be scrapped along with the MiG-29KR and they would likely be looking hard at land based Su-57 to protect their coastline and Arctic regions.

    The fact that they have developed Zircon and are working on lots of other weapons like that including 1,500km range Grom missiles carried by tactical fighter planes means they want to defend their country from powerful enemy forces... the west or China, but more likely the west because it seems the west cannot open dialog with Russia without blaming it for everything imposing sanctions and delivering unfounded accusations followed by ultimatums... there is no talking to such people...

    China and Russia in comparison are able to discuss all sorts of things and to work together... they aren't best buddies and are certainly not joined at the hip and they disagree on a few things, but that does not mean they can't get along and do some great things.

    Very correct. Turkey is always Russia's enemy. China is always Russia's ally. This will never change. Turks are barbaric nomads. Chinese are civilized.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:17 am

    Very correct. Turkey is always Russia's enemy. China is always Russia's ally. This will never change. Turks are barbaric nomads. Chinese are civilized.

    China attacked USSR for a small piece of land. Russians will never trust them. They are occasional allies when they have a common enemy but nothing more.

    Russia's biggest ally is its nuks.


    Last edited by Isos on Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:33 am

    The Americans would be more likely to slip China information to help them against Russia... and information to Russia to help them against China and suggest to India that this might be their chance to attack China..
    it would depend on future circumstances, threat perceptions & US long term interests. If there's a Western leaning gov. in Russia, the US may decide that China is a bigger threat & must be contained & stopped with Russia's help, esp. if & after a conflict erupts between them. The Anglo Saxons don't have perpetual allies nor enemies- only interests.
    The only permanent thing is change- that's why China, were the I Ching (Book of Change) was written long ago, doesn't enter any formal defensive blocs.
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    Post  jhelb on Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Americans would be more likely to slip China information to help them against Russia... and information to Russia to help them against China and suggest to India that this might be their chance to attack China while China is weak and then sit back and watch the show as countries they fundamentally hate destroy each other...

    China will destroy India within a few days, not even months. It will be China, Pakistan, Middle East vs India. And those Hindus deserve this for cozying up to the West, despite the fact that the West, especially the US hates those people of color.

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Anglo Saxons don't have perpetual allies nor enemies- only interests.

    They do consider Russia to be a perpetual enemy despite the fact that the 3 million plus Russians contribute over 7% to the US economy.

    Also, black, asian races like buddhists, hindus etc are are considered perpetual enemies by the Anglo-Saxons. These colored races (blacks, asian) are constantly fighting among themselves. Anglo Saxons have already destroyed their countries from the inside. A knockout punch is on the horizon.
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    Post  jhelb on Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:18 pm

    Isos wrote:China attacked USSR for a small piece of land. Russians will never trust them. They are occasional allies when they have a common enemy but nothing more

    That's true. Just that some Russian commentators (probably on zionist payroll)put out some dubious theories that in asia tribes like hindus, buddhists, other pagans are apparently Russia's allies. To take advantage of gullible Russians, these commentators even suggest that pagan tribes like hindus are apparently Caucasian and migrated to asia from southern Russia. Russian government should stop such efforts to brainwash ethnic Russians.

    Russia should build up its own conventional and nuclear deterrent.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:10 pm

    Russia, most of India, & China r all parts of the former Mongol Empire. they have more in common with each other than with the West.
    India & China suffered from the European colonization, Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, & concessions. Just like Japan sided with the UK/US in WWI, China & India sided with the USSR, US & UK in WWII to survive, liberate occupied areas, & preserve/gain their independence.
    Mongolia took over all of Rus & dominated it for 300 years- but still it didn't become the 16th Soviet republic; the Sino-Soviet border conflict is ancient history. If some 100s of Ks Chinese settle in the RF, it doesn't mean China will 1 day decide to take those areas by force; they'll have as much chance as Mexico vs. the USA in the American Southwest with Ms of Hispanics living & multiplying there for generations.
    Since being openly declared adversarial by the US, the Russians & Chinese, both of which had disastrous wars with the West & Japan, realized that they can accomplish a lot more by cooperating & not by letting the West divide them, & this trend will certainly continue for some time, if not for generations. Thus, I don't see the PLAN posing a real threat to Russia in any way, shape or form.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:22 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:15 am

    Very correct. Turkey is always Russia's enemy. China is always Russia's ally. This will never change. Turks are barbaric nomads. Chinese are civilized.

    Totally off topic and not what I was saying either (this was a reply to my comments).

    Turkey is a trade partner and is less of an enemy of Russia than the EU or US.

    China is not an ally any more than anyone is a Russian ally... China will trade with Russia without imposing demands on them and will expect no demands to be imposed by Russia on them... ie free and open trade unlike what they both get with the west... strings and restrictions and demands...

    There are more bad chinese people than bad russians or bad turks simply because there are a hell of a lot more chinese in the world, but that doesn't mean they can't trade and get along like civilised sensible people.

    If there's a Western leaning gov. in Russia, the US may decide that China is a bigger threat & must be contained & stopped with Russia's help, esp. if & after a conflict erupts between them.

    Compared with the west, China is stable and sensible and can be negotiated with... you can't trust the west at all.

    China will destroy India within a few days, not even months.

    Both countries have nuclear weapons... there is no chance of either destroying the other without being destroyed itself and there is no level of damage one could achieve against the other that would make it worth it for the level of damage they would receive in return. It simply does not make sense for either to get into a conflict with the other or to remain in conflict with the other... no matter how much the US encourages them to.

    They do consider Russia to be a perpetual enemy despite the fact that the 3 million plus Russians contribute over 7% to the US economy.

    Which is the best possible scenario for Russia as a country to avoid the claws and tongue of the west...

    A knockout punch is on the horizon.

    Delivered to itself...

    Russia should build up its own conventional and nuclear deterrent.

    The real threat comes from the west as the west has shown it wants to control Russia and China and prevent their development and growth and is happy to kill millions and destroy entire countries to suit its whims...

    Moving off topic stuff to more suitable thread...
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:Both countries have nuclear weapons... there is no chance of either destroying the other without being destroyed itself

    When China attacked Soviet Union in the 60s, the Soviet Union had nuclear weapons. Similarly India developed nukes in the mid 70s and yet China and India fought border wars in the mid 80s and recently in 2017.

    China has an economy 5X that of India's. It's nuclear arsenal far, far bigger than that of India's. China doesn't need any help from West to destroy India.

    GarryB wrote:The Americans would be more likely to slip China information to help them against Russia

    Not sure about that. Chinese intel on Russia is probably a lot better than US intel on Russia. Not sure what kind of info Yankees can share with China.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:06 pm

    China has an economy 5X that of India's. It's nuclear arsenal far, far bigger than that of India's. China doesn't need any help from West to destroy India.

    And how would China destroy india without nuks ?

    Indian economy will increase while chinese eco is already slowing down.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:07 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Russia, most of India, & China r all parts of the former Mongol Empire. they have more in common with each other than with the West.

    Isn't this what you Americans have been saying for decades now? That Russians are not White apparently we are Red even black.

    Truth is 80% of Russians are White Slavs. Chinese are mongoloids I get that, but for India only the population in north east India are mongoloids. Indians are probably Caucasians themselves. I'm not sure because they are colored people not White.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:11 pm

    Isos wrote:And how would China destroy india without nuks ?

    Their conventional forces are much larger than that of India. They are technologically more advanced. They produce most of their weapons.

    Isos wrote:Indian economy will increase while chinese eco is already slowing down.

    On the contrary, India's economy is slowing down. China's economy is still 5x that of India's. Will become the largest in another 3-4 years, while India is hardly showing any progress.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:06 pm

    jhelb wrote:Isn't this what you Americans have been saying for decades now? That Russians are not White apparently we are Red even black.
    I'm not a Yankee, so race doesn't matter to me. Shared history & culture is what bind countries.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:Off topic stuff moved here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7713p125-the-rise-of-chinese-navy-and-the-threat-it-poses-to-the-russian-navy

    Further discussion here to be related to the Kilo class SSK only... thanks to PapaD and Lsos for remaining on topic...  Very Happy

    On the contrary, Chinese navy will ensure Japan don't touch Kurils. Chinese navy is far more powerful than Russian navy.
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:38 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Very correct. Turkey is always Russia's enemy. China is always Russia's ally. This will never change. Turks are barbaric nomads. Chinese are civilized.

    China attacked USSR for a small piece of land. Russians will never trust them. They are occasional allies when they have a common enemy but nothing more.

    Russia's biggest ally is its nuks.

    Chinese never killed Russians. Can't say the same about Turks. China is forever Russia's ally. Turkey is forever Russia's enemy.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:43 pm

    FYI, at least 1.5K+60 more Russians/Soviets were killed by the Chinese before & in 1969: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/17953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

    The USSR supported Ataturk. The Soviet supply of gold and armaments to the Kemalists in 1920–1922 was a key factor in the latter's successful grab of power in an Ottoman Empire defeated by the Triple Entente and their victory in the Armenian campaign and the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#Early_cooperation_with_Turkish_revolutionaries

    Turkey isn't an empire anymore & will play the bigger powers against each other just like dozens of other, even larger, countries do.
    ultimatewarrior
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:49 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:FYI, at least 1.5K+60 more Russians/Soviets were killed by the Chinese before & in 1969: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/17953  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

    The USSR supported Ataturk. The Soviet supply of gold and armaments to the Kemalists in 1920–1922 was a key factor in the latter's successful grab of power in an Ottoman Empire defeated by the Triple Entente and their victory in the Armenian campaign and the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union%E2%80%93Turkey_relations#Early_cooperation_with_Turkish_revolutionaries

    Turkey isn't an empire anymore & will play the bigger powers against each other just like dozens of other, even larger, countries do.

    Fake.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:57 pm

    Pl. post sources that will disprove what I quoted. Otherwise, don't bother to respond.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:10 pm


    Can mods move this tread to 'International Politics Forum' or 'Asian and Oceanian Militaries' category?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:21 am

    When China attacked Soviet Union in the 60s, the Soviet Union had nuclear weapons. Similarly India developed nukes in the mid 70s and yet China and India fought border wars in the mid 80s and recently in 2017.

    Which restricted the violence to minor border skirmishes rather than all out war.

    China has an economy 5X that of India's.

    Which means it has so much more to lose than India does...

    It's nuclear arsenal far, far bigger than that of India's. China doesn't need any help from West to destroy India.

    A nuclear armed India will not launch a nuclear attack on China if it is just a border skirmish, but if China actually tries to destroy India you can bet your ass that India will respond with nuclear strikes on multiple Chinese cities doing enormous damage to China... vastly more damage that China would ever want to absorb in the interests of destroying India. India isn't enough of a problem to justify the level of damage they could do to China if provoked.

    Not sure about that. Chinese intel on Russia is probably a lot better than US intel on Russia. Not sure what kind of info Yankees can share with China.

    The point is that the US will do everything it can to pour fuel on the fire and blow any sparks and embers to get something going between China and Russia or China and India or China and anyone...

    And how would China destroy india without nuks ?

    Indian economy will increase while chinese eco is already slowing down.

    A nuclear war with a neighbour is a very good way to kill an economy... the Chinese have more to lose in that regard than India does...

    Isn't this what you Americans have been saying for decades now? That Russians are not White apparently we are Red even black.

    Americans claim to be white so it is clearly over rated... and why start listening to the west now?

    Truth is 80% of Russians are White Slavs. Chinese are mongoloids I get that, but for India only the population in north east India are mongoloids. Indians are probably Caucasians themselves. I'm not sure because they are colored people not White.

    With global warming soon everyone will have a tan...

    Their conventional forces are much larger than that of India. They are technologically more advanced. They produce most of their weapons.

    The cost of a conventional attack on India through those mountain ranges to destroy India would be enormous and easily countered with tactical nuke strikes... a multi million man army of Chinese forces attacking Indian territory would justify the use of nukes... and technology doesn't come in to it really... on paper German weapons were much more sophisticated and well made than Soviet weapons but often in actual use Soviet weapons were vastly superior weapons because they weren't so sophisticated and complex. Who produces the weapons is not important.

    The Panzer I and Panzer II and Panzer III were pathetic vehicles in terms of raw performance... guns, mobility, engine power, armour, etc etc, but communications and crew layout and optics and the tactics used made them more effective than foreign tanks that might have been individually superior with better guns and engines and armour. The best tank in the war would be useless if the war machine behind it could not produce enough armour piercing shells or could not supply the fuel to where the vehicles had driven to...

    A Chinese invasion of India would be through mountain ranges... vulnerable to artillery and air power...


    On the contrary, India's economy is slowing down. China's economy is still 5x that of India's. Will become the largest in another 3-4 years, while India is hardly showing any progress.

    A war between both countries would destroy both economies... which is why such a conflict would be high up on a US wet dream list... along with seperatists in Siberia negotiating with the west with all their oil and mineral resources to get them out from under the thumb of Moscow... and nicely and securely under the thumb of Washington...

    On the contrary, Chinese navy will ensure Japan don't touch Kurils. Chinese navy is far more powerful than Russian navy.

    Land based aircraft with Kinzhal missiles will ensure Japan does not touch the Kurils... the Chinese Navy is unlikely to interfere either way.

    Chinese never killed Russians. Can't say the same about Turks. China is forever Russia's ally. Turkey is forever Russia's enemy.

    Chinese killed Russians in various border disputes in the 60s and 70s... neither Turkey nor China are Russias best buddies, but Russia would be stupid to refuse trade and cooperation with these two powerful countries... just because of their locations.

    Can mods move this tread to 'International Politics Forum' or 'Asian and Oceanian Militaries' category?

    Yes.
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:A Chinese invasion of India would be through mountain ranges... vulnerable to artillery and air power...

    For such a strategy to be effective you need numbers. India doesn't have the number (artillery, fighter jets).

    More importantly Pakistan will be engaged by China to attack India on India's western front and Pakistan will receive support from a host of Islamic countries.

    China will win this war hands down.

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