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    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:28 pm

    For reference's sake I put this news from a couple years ago here. I assume all of these changes are being made to be used in construction of Laika class submarines.

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/focus-analysis/naval-technology/9270-analysis-3-3-russian-sevmash-shipyard-to-introduce-block-modular-submarine-construction.html

    Analysis 3/3: Russian Sevmash Shipyard to introduce block-modular submarine construction
    13 November 2020

    "The decision in principle has likely been made. It is confirmed by Sevmash, which said in a press release that “a project to switch to block-modular method for the construction of new-generation submarines has been opened.”

    The Sevmash shipyard is completing the previous modernization program launched in 2012. It has to develop Sevmash into a modern shipyard capable of building any vessel and comparable to American and West European counterparts in the technical level.

    The modernization was financed by several federal programs, including the programs for radiation safety and civilian shipbuilding. Most funds were earmarked by the program to develop the military-industrial complex. The shipyard replaced all the cranes, renewed the tools and measuring equipment, and installed cheaper and more effective lights in workshops.

    The overhaul of the construction embankment has been completed. Supplies of steam, compressed air, water, oxygen and other gasses were upgraded. Power cables of the required voltage and frequency were laid.

    The berth was the next in the modernization line. Today it can carry hull constructions of 6 thousand tons and transfer them from workshop #7 to workshop #50 and from Sevmash to Zvyozdochka. Sevmash also decreased construction costs and minimized the time. Workshops #55, 50, and 42 have been specialized for end products.

    The work in 2020 includes lean manufacturing, advanced control, modern marking technology in the construction of nuclear submarines. Power efficiency is increased and a new line for production with composite materials is prepared.

    Large-scale modernization is ongoing in the blacksmith workshop which treats units of future nuclear submarines. In two years, it received 12 new furnaces, upgraded available ones, and is engaged in re-equipment. It is planned to install an automatic electric furnace to treat titanium units for submarines."

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:41 pm

    All Russian submarines built from the K-535 Yuri Dolgorukiy submarine can serve until 2050. Submarine K-535 has been operational since December 29, 2012. Given that the submarine K-51 Verkhoturye has been operational since December 1984 and that in december this year it is 38 years of operational life, it is clear that Borei was initially designed with the aim of remaining operational for at least 40 years.

    So until 2050+ the following submarines of project 955/955A will be in active status ; K-535, K-549, K-550, K-551 and K-552. That's 5 submarines and the sixth "Suvorov" will join them by the end of this year. SIX SUBMARINES
    So until 2050+ the following submarines of project 885/885M will be in active status; K-560 Severodvinsk , K-561 Kazan , K-573 Novosibirsk and the fourth K-571 Krasnoyarsk will join them by the end of this year. FOUR SUBMARINES.
    One more active submarine is a special purpose submarine K-329 Belgorod of the project 09852. ELEVEN FINISHED SUBMARINES

    Under construction (project 885M) ; K-564 Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk, Voronezh, Vladivostok. FIVE UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    Under construction (project 955A); Imperator Aleksander III, Knyaz Pozharskiy, Knyaz Potemkin, Dmitriy Donskoy. FOUR SUBMARINES
    Under construction (project 09851); Khabarovsk. TEN SUBMARINES ARE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

    Planned construction and contracts; the contract for two more 955A submarines has been signed and plans for two more 885M submarines are being written.
    We summarize; 11 submarines built, 10 under construction, two more commissioned for construction and two planned. THAT'S 25 NUCLEAR SUBMARINES.

    Navykorabel currently has 36 (counting the "Nerpa" submarine) nuclear submarines listed in its fleet list; while another 4 submarines have disappeared from the list in the last 2 years ;
    * K-84 Ekaterinburg project 667BDRM Dolphin,
    * K-119 Voronezh ; Project 949A Antey,
    * B-414 Danil Moskovskiy ; Project 671 RTM(K) Schchuka,
    * K-391 Bratsk is submarine of the project 971.
    Some submarines have been quietly decommissioned and are no longer talked about like the titanium 945 Barracuda; K-239 Karp and K-276 Kostroma. The overhaul of the same has been officially suspended and there is no other information.
    Special purpose submarines such as BS-136 Orenburg (project 09786 and the oldest active submarine; one month older than TK-208) and BS-64 Podmoskovye belonging to project 09787 are not included in that Navykorabel list. The list does not include the submarine TK-208 Dmitry Donskoy (project 09412) , which on December 23 of this year completes 41 years of operational service.


    So, 11 new submarines were built and another 10 are under construction, making 21 submarines. The plan is two more contracted 955A and two 885M - only to be officially confirmed for these submarines. That's 25.
    We don't know how many strategic submarines Russia is planning...
    We do not even know if it is in Russia's plan to convert the first submarines of project 955 into special purpose submarines, as is the case with the Orenburg and Podmoskovye.

    In any case, I think this is the minimum that must be; 12 SSBN submarines, 24 SSN/SSGN submarines, while another 4 to 6 submarines would be special purpose submarines; 4 submarines with Poseidon torpedoes and two more to succeed Orenburg and Podmoskovye. The focus in the near future and the second half of this decade will be shifted to the construction of SSN/SSGN submarines.

    So no less than 40 nuclear submarines, and bearing in mind that Sevmash can already deliver at least one submarine a year, this means that Sevmash can deliver at least 40 nuclear submarines in 30 years.

    * Delivered submarines in 2021; K-552 Knyaz Oleg (955A), K-571 Kazan (885M) and K-573 Novosibirsk (885M).
    * Delivered submarines in 2022; K-329 Belgorod (project 09852) and hopefully by the end of the year and K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885M), as well as "Generalissimus Suvorov" (955A) which has not yet received its naval K number.
    SIX SUBMARINES IN TWOO YEARS.
    That is why I am of the opinion that the next year will be "dry" so that in 2024 a larger number of submarines such as the K-564 Arkhangelsk (885M) and probably the Emperor Alexander III (955A) , as well as perhaps the Khabarovsk (09851), would be delivered again.



    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 30 21476311

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    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:43 pm

    ALAMO wrote:They have not constructed titanium hull subs for 40 years.
    All the competence that used to exist in Sormovo simply retired or died.
    From this perspective, they can start that process at any facility, it will be from the scratch anyway.
    You weld titanium in the same gas chamber as any gas welding, only the gas mix is different.

    Meh. Welding is welding. Other than the need to operate within an oxygen-depleted environment while wearing "diving suits" ( Laughing ) the physicial reality of working with titanium isn't rocket science and any experienced welder can make the transition with some training.

    The real question in my mind is why go to the trouble?

    Titanium has two main advantages - low magnetic properties, and immunity to seawater corrosion. Titanium isn't actually stronger than steel (its tensile strength is actualler lower), but it is lighter so has higher strength per unit mass. In any case, steel subs can dive just as deep at Ti-hulled boats.

    IMO I think that titanium could well be made obsolete by developments in the use of advanced composites. If Russians can fabricate a complete hull for an Alexandrit-class minesweeper in a single (vacuum infusion) pour, who is to say that they can't do something similar for an SNN, especially if that sub is greatly automated to reduce its size and POB count (ie minimal crew like an Lira/Alfa and utilising modern UUV technologies).

    Don't know where such develpments would leaves the 945s. dunno I suspect that the 945s may be such a special beast that the Russians may be struggling to come up with practical uses for them in the future once they can no longer serve as effective SSNs...

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:56 pm

    Yes you are right. That is what I said : if they would find a need of restarting titanium-hulled ships, there is no difference where that would be.
    Another story is technological advances in materials. Soviet metallurgy was much superior to the US one for decades, and this gap still exists. New subs are being constructed with a brand new steel alloys that push the limits much up (or down in this particular case Laughing ).
    The latest episode of Combat Approval had a really interesting moment when they zoomed the depth meter on board. The visible scale was up to 300m, but the hint was that the 300m marking was not even half of the scale. The rumors that an operating depth of 885 is "more than 600m" are getting notorious.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:33 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:They have not constructed titanium hull subs for 40 years.
    All the competence that used to exist in Sormovo simply retired or died.
    From this perspective, they can start that process at any facility, it will be from the scratch anyway.
    You weld titanium in the same gas chamber as any gas welding, only the gas mix is different.

    Meh.  Welding is welding.  Other than the need to operate within an oxygen-depleted environment while wearing "diving suits" ( Laughing ) the physicial reality of working with titanium isn't rocket science and any experienced welder can make the transition with some training.

    The real question in my mind is why go to the trouble?

    Titanium has two main advantages - low magnetic properties, and immunity to seawater corrosion.  Titanium isn't actually stronger than steel (its tensile strength is actualler lower), but it is lighter so has higher strength per unit mass.  In any case, steel subs can dive just as deep at Ti-hulled boats.

    IMO I think that titanium could well be made obsolete by developments in the use of advanced composites.  If Russians can fabricate a complete hull for an Alexandrit-class minesweeper in a single (vacuum infusion) pour, who is to say that they can't do something similar for an SNN, especially if that sub is greatly automated to reduce its size and POB count (ie minimal crew like an Lira/Alfa and utilising modern UUV technologies).

    Don't know where such develpments would leaves the 945s.  dunno   I suspect that the 945s may be such a special beast that the Russians may be struggling to come up with practical uses for them in the future once they can no longer serve as effective SSNs...


    I don't believe anything can replace titanium....except the cost of construction..
    Titanium as titanium is less of a problem because it is evident that there is not a single bit of corrosion on the project 945 and 945A submarines. I watched some video links a few years ago with one 945 and one 945A submarine and there is no corrosion in the places where the anechoic parts have fallen off, which is the case with other steel submarines. Some say that the lifetime of titanium is twice that of steel, although the question is how to "dismantle" the submarine and insert new elements into it. If project 971 Schchuka with modernization can remain operational for up to 40 years, then it would be enough for these project 945 and 945A submarines to "endure" only 50% more - 60 years of operational life. And that would mean that there is time for K-239 Karp, K-276 Kostroma (both are the base project of 945 Barracuda), as well as for the newer 945A Kondor; B-534 Nizhny Novgorod and B-336 Pskov.
    And these submarines have the greatest diving depth of all operational nuclear attack submarines.

    K-276 Kostroma and B-336 Pskov...  welcome The submarine that is in the picture of the link is Nizhny Novgorod and is located right next to these two submarines..

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:08 pm

    I would also think that the welding process could be entirely done using robotics and nano tech, but I am absolutely no expert at welding! Laughing

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:34 pm

    SEVMASH; in my opinion, the most important link in the Russian military-industrial conflict.

    Russian Nuclear Submarine Force: Discussion - Page 30 01-11111


    The scope of work on Sevmash is huge. I don't know where this list came from, but it was published on balancer.ru. And on this list is the same thing that I assumed, that is, that the K-564 will not be operational until 2024, while the K-571 Krasnoyarsk will most likely be handed over to the Russian Navy.

    However, the "genius" who made this list did not include in it the 11th and 12th submarines of the Borei project, for the construction of which the contract was signed, but he did include the 9th and 10th submarines of the Yasen project, for which the contract has not yet been officially signed - which does not mean that it will not be.

    By the end of 2028/2029;
    Project 885/885M; Either way, one Project 885 and eight Project 885M submarines should be operational by the end of 2029. After that period, two more project 885M submarines would be under construction - the 9th and 10th submarines.

    Project 955/955A; As things currently stand, Russia will certainly have 3 submarines 955 and 5 submarines 955A project by 2026, while by the end of 2029 it could have as many as 10. After that period, two more project 955A submarines would be under construction - the 11th and 12th submarine.

    Project 09852
    ; K-329 Belgorod is delivered.

    Project 09851/09853
    ; Project 09851 submarine is the most secretive of all the Russian submarines under construction and is scheduled to be operational by 2025. The list also states the start of construction of submarine project 09853 from 2023, as well as two more submarines of that project in 2024 and 2025.

    From 2012 to 2020; The first 3 Project 955 (K-535 Dolgorukiy, K-550 Nevsky, K-551 Monomakh) submarines and one Project 885 submarine (K-560 Severodvinsk) were delivered over the past decade. FOUR SUBMARINES.

    * From 2020 to 2022;
    In this decade since the beginning of 2020, Sevmash has delivered 5 nuclear submarines;
    * 2020; K-549 Knyaz Vladimir (955A),
    * 2021; K-552 Knyaz Oleg (955A), K-561 Kazan (885M), K-573 Novosibirsk (885M),
    * 2022; K-329 (Belgorod) and twoo more soon "Generalissimus Suvorov" (955) and K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885). SEVEN SUBMARINES.

    From 2023 to 2028/2029; we can expect the delivery of TEN more submarines;
    * FIVE of project 885M; submarines Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk , Voronezh and Vladivostok
    * FOUR of project 955A, Imperator Aleksander III, Knyaz Pozharskiy, Dmitry Donskoy and Knyaz Potemkin
    * ONE of project 09851; Khabarovsk.


    According to the list, we already know that at least 7 more submarines will be under construction by the end of this decade; two 885M (9th and 10th), two 955A (11th and 12th), as well as 3 projects 09853 (1st, 2nd and 3rd). Anyway, this decade has just begun and Sevmash will have a lot of work and many new contracts that we don't know about yet.
    Bearing in mind that there is only one shipyard in question, Sevmash builds the most combat units, and at the same time, these are submarines that have a far greater displacement than other Russian ships and submarines under construction - except for the two ships of project 23900.


    * To sum up;
    ELEVEN delivered submarines ; K-535 Dolgorukiy, K-550 Nevsky, K-551 Monomakh, K-560 Severodvinsk, K-549 Knyaz Vladimir (955A), K-552 Knyaz Oleg (955A), K-561 Kazan (885M), K-573 Novosibirsk (885M), K-329 (Belgorod) and twoo more soon "Generalissimus Suvorov" (955) and K-571 Krasnoyarsk (885).
    TEN more submarines in the next seven years ; submarines Arkhangelsk, Perm, Ulyanovsk , Voronezh and Vladivostok (all 885M); Imperator Aleksander III, Knyaz Pozharskiy, Dmitry Donskoy and Knyaz Potemkin (all 955A) and ONE of project 09851; Khabarovsk.
    SEVEN more in construction; TWOO 885M, TWOO 955A and THREE 09853. Thats 28 in total.
    My assumption is that in the period from 2030 to 2040, that number will reach 35 to 40 submarines built and delivered to the Russian Navy in the period from 2012 to 2040.
    And in the end it will turn out that Sevmash is able to build nuclear submarines for the Russian VMF on its own.


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:11 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Project 09852[/b]; K-329 Belgorod is delivered.

    Project 09851/09853
    ; Project 09851 submarine is the most secretive of all the Russian submarines under construction and is scheduled to be operational by 2025. The list also states the start of construction of submarine project 09853 from 2023, as well as two more submarines of that project in 2024 and 2025.

    Some people seriously underestimate the consequences of Poseidon carriers introduction.
    The situation here is an analogue of the whole doctrine change that US made in the 80s, while deciding to change the air defense penetration method from high&fast to low&slow.
    That required a whole reconstruction of the Soviet AD system and tools, and was one of a serious punches made to the Soviet economy.
    Now we have the same story, only made underwater and by the Russkie.
    There are no tools to solve the Poseidon factor, that is a 100 kts/1000m running torpedo with unpredicted trajectory&unlimited range of operation.
    Zero, null, nada.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:50 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Project 09852[/b]; K-329 Belgorod is delivered.

    Project 09851/09853
    ; Project 09851 submarine is the most secretive of all the Russian submarines under construction and is scheduled to be operational by 2025. The list also states the start of construction of submarine project 09853 from 2023, as well as two more submarines of that project in 2024 and 2025.

    Some people seriously underestimate the consequences of Poseidon carriers introduction.
    The situation here is an analogue of the whole doctrine change that US made in the 80s, while deciding to change the air defense penetration method from high&fast to low&slow.
    That required a whole reconstruction of the Soviet AD system and tools, and was one of a serious punches made to the Soviet economy.
    Now we have the same story, only made underwater and by the Russkie.
    There are no tools to solve the Poseidon factor, that is a 100 kts/1000m running torpedo with unpredicted trajectory&unlimited range of operation.
    Zero, null, nada.

    I agree..
    I think that Sevmash will completely switch to the construction of "special purpose" submarines (as the Russians call 09852 project K-329 Belgorod and submarines of project 09851/09853 Khabarovsk) at the end of this and the beginning of the next decade, as well as 885M.
    Currently, 10 submarines are being built; 5 projects 885M, 4 projects 955A and one 09851 project.
    Construction contracts have been signed for two more 955A submarines. I'm just curious if the first submarines of project 955 will be converted to replace the "special purpose" submarines B-129 Orenburg (project 09786 and converted from 667BDR Kalmar/NATO; Delta III) and the submarine BS-64 Podmoskovye which is converted from project 667BDRM Dolphin /NATO; Delta IV and now belongs to the project 09787.
    If the Russians are already planning to do this, then probably two more Project 955A submarines will be built - 14 Project 955 and 955A submarines in total. The moment when the construction of SSBN submarines of the project 955A is nearing the end, then the construction of submarines 885M (or successors in the form of a new project like 545A) will increase, and the same applies to submarines of project 09853.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:15 pm

    Regarding titanium, are the Yasens and Boreis not titanium?

    They mentioned titanium construction in the Telekanal Svezda episodes.
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:23 pm

    Those are definitely not titanium subs.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:26 pm

    Mir wrote:Those are definitely not titanium subs.

    What makes you so sure?
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:30 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    I think that Sevmash will completely switch to the construction of "special purpose" submarines

    They don't really need a lot of those subs - all these special purpose subs will be built in small numbers with only about 3-4 Khabarovsk's planned.

    I think the Borey's will soon make way for the Husky/Laika subs and once they finished the 885M's they will probably look at the Arctic - which to my mind is actually part of the husky project anyway.

    Naturally they will continue developing special purpose subs but they will remain small in numbers.

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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:39 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Mir wrote:Those are definitely not titanium subs.

    What makes you so sure?

    There might be some titanium piping in those subs but the last submarines with a complete titanium hull were built 40 years ago and very few were built because it was very expensive and time consuming to construct these subs.

    Only 7 Project 705 Lira/Alfa, 4 Project 945/945A and a single K-222 (Papa) were entirely built from Titanium.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:59 pm

    One easy way to confirm what the Yasen and Borei's inner hulls are mode of it to look at the displacement and maximum diving depths compared to a titanium submarine

    Since titanium has roughly half the density of steel and a similar strength a steel submarine would either have a much higher displacement/internal volume or a vastly inferior diving depth.
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:24 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:One easy way to confirm what the Yasen and Borei's inner hulls are mode of it to look at the displacement and maximum diving depths compared to a titanium submarine

    Since titanium has roughly half the density of steel and a similar strength a steel submarine would either have a much higher displacement/internal volume or a vastly inferior diving depth.

    Quite right but I have to tell you that the actual diving depths of navy submarines are highly classified - take all of it with a pinch of salt.
    One thing is sure though - the Los Angeles boats are not "deep diving" subs! Laughing
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:29 pm

    Fascinating theory Twisted Evil
    And how in detail one would extrapolate the mass proportions between the hull structure made of Ti and the other aggregates on board like the machinery, reactor, shafts, weapons, supplies?
    Oh, I know!
    From the arse!
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:31 pm

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:40 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Fascinating theory Twisted Evil
    And how in detail one would extrapolate the mass proportions between the hull structure made of Ti and the other aggregates on board like the machinery, reactor, shafts, weapons, supplies?
    Oh, I know!
    From the arse!

    They would be similar for a similar sized submarine.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:45 pm

    Another fascinating theory!
    Lets say, a single reactor sub manned with 120 people adds to the two reactor and two propeller one manned by 60?
    A single hull one to the double hulled?
    Or .. ekhm .. triple, maybe?
    And again, what is the proportion of hull structure weight in the weight of a whole submarine?

    Where will you find the weight data?

    Ohh ... don't tell me!
    I know - from the same place!
    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:49 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Quite right but I have to tell you that the actual diving depths of navy submarines are highly classified - take all of it with a pinch of salt.
    One thing is sure though - the Los Angeles boats are not "deep diving" subs! Laughing

    Using steel monohulls it is no surprise that the pindo submarines cannot go very deep before crumpling.

    Steel being around twice the density of titanium and having similar properties means that a steel hulled submarine will have less spare displacement for weapons than a titanium submarine meaning you need more submarines to carry more weapons and since most steels do not form protective oxide layers you will need to spend much more money on a steel submarine's maintenance.

    It also begs the question of how exactly one maintains a multi hull steel submarine?
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:56 pm

    They can't go deep mostly because the LA was made to be inexpensive mass produced piece to face the Soviet massive numbers.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:00 pm

    ALAMO wrote:They can't go deep mostly because the LA was made to be inexpensive mass produced piece to face the Soviet massive numbers.

    No pindo military sub can go deep other than maybe the seawolf.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:03 pm

    They have used substandard steel for the hull construction for two decades.
    Sailing close to surface is a sign of a common sense I would say Laughing Laughing

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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:13 pm

    Mir wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:One easy way to confirm what the Yasen and Borei's inner hulls are mode of it to look at the displacement and maximum diving depths compared to a titanium submarine

    Since titanium has roughly half the density of steel and a similar strength a steel submarine would either have a much higher displacement/internal volume or a vastly inferior diving depth.

    Quite right but I have to tell you that the actual diving depths of navy submarines are highly classified - take all of it with a pinch of salt.
    One thing is sure though - the Los Angeles boats are not "deep diving" subs! Laughing

    Not that much classified since they export subs. They have to tell diving deapths when presenting the subs.

    Numbers on the internet aren't the real ones but gives a very good estimation.

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