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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Stealthflanker
    Stealthflanker


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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:35 pm

    What i did when i meet leopard 2A4 close and personal.

    Well i brought rulers.. piece of paper, pen and camera.. and start doing my job.

    This is the Leopard in question.
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 1536470_10201129601906485_413936346_n

    What i did ?
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 1510549_10201129598186392_824451867_n

    What's being measured ?
    Loader's sight turret armor
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 1514567_10201129598546401_1823879830_n

    Commander and gunner part :
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 69504_10201129595666329_86347371_n

    Oh and i'm also measure thickness of the gunsight/commander's sight cover
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 1513318_10201129601026463_2064277344_n

    Turret side part :
    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 1545855_10201129606626603_1556750611_n

    Lower hull part :
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/q84/s720x720/1551515_10201129605146566_1307777015_n.jpg


    And some other parts like side skirts, gun mantlet and rear of the turrets. The results was well... might be doubtful considering i measure using my old piece of ruler and take no account of angles (Which however can be easily found using 1/cos@*Physical thickness while @ is the angle in radians) But it give me at least some idea that "it's not as thick as what some internet guys claimed"

    Another thing is that i measured parts that i could measure... can't do a thing for others like say.. roof and all of my figures are for physical thickness... can't say a thing about the cobham filler inside.. So my figures might be worthless.

    Hmm result of my measurements as follows :

    Turret front part (loader side) : 617 mm
    Turret (Commander & Gunner side) Behind the sight :535 mm
    Thickness of the sight's cover : 12 mm
    Side of the Turret : 285 mm
    Rear of the Turret : 25 mm
    Gun Mantlet : 500 mm
    Roof of the gun mantlet : 70 mm
    Side skirt add on armor : 110mm
    Lower frontal hull :40 mm


    Hmm that's all.. What's left now is to repeat the measurement..which quite long from now since cavalry batalyon near my city has not received any leopard yet (That one i measured was the 1st batch.. 2 arrived.. 1 however is rumoured to be returned to Germany for some unknown reason)
    TR1
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  TR1 Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:07 pm

    Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.
    Werewolf
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Werewolf Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.
    Stealthflanker
    Stealthflanker


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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:42 am

    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Thanks.  respekt 

    Yes.. I read such claims including this image Damian & His friend's claim , in one of Tank thread debate here (where Mindstorm "having fun" with both of them)Mp.net and tank.net.


    I was lucky that Indonesian Leopard 2 was showcased during the event.. So i took my ruler and rollin. I measured the armor weld to weld too but none yield figures close to 800 mm or 890mm... But rather some 617mm and 535mm. So Lord Harkonnen and one Tank.net guy's figure was closer to reality  yes sir 

    Too bad all i have to take photos was quite lousy cellphone camera.

    TR1
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  TR1 Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:25 pm

    You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy !
    bantugbro
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  bantugbro Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:50 pm

    Interesting findings...thanks respekt 
    collegeboy16
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  collegeboy16 Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:43 pm

    nice work...
    Though im a bit surprised they just let you measure it, isnt it kind of OPSEC given its your country's best tank?
    GarryB
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:48 am

    Though im a bit surprised they just let you measure it, isnt it kind of OPSEC given its your country's best tank?

    There is software that can calculate dimensions in a photo.

    I am sure they would have stopped him when he got out his core sampler kit though ... Smile
    Stealthflanker
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy!

    Done.. now let the mess begin.
    TR1
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  TR1 Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:19 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    TR1 wrote:You might wanna post your findings on Tank.net, see what our Polish friends have to say Very Happy!

    Done.. now let the mess begin.

    You da man.
    flamming_python
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  flamming_python Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:08 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    Werewolf
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Werewolf Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:35 am

    Yeah, he is a double standard hypocrite despite some knowledge of military matters.

    Especially when it comes to figures of RHA he always calls the ridiculous figures of simulations for military from this one ridiculous site like on Wikishmedia article about Leo2a6 with the ridiculouse figure of 1960mm RHA for the turret.
    Stealthflanker
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:46 pm

    Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.
    TR1
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  TR1 Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:27 pm

    They claim you measured the wrong angle, not the same orientation as the Poles did.....but I am going to take a wild guess and say you are competent enough to compare the same measurement angles, and still got a far lower value?

    Keep fighting the good fight (truth).
    Werewolf
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Werewolf Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:30 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.

    Can we have the link to where they claim you are incorrect and don't know how to measure?
    Stealthflanker
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Stealthflanker Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:48 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Well unsurprisingly.. the 840mm fan labeled my findings as incorrect.

    I may missed something but 20 cm of discrepancies is well may not be the case.

    All needs to be done now is of course repetition.

    Can we have the link to where they claim you are incorrect and don't know how to measure?

    inbound.

    http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?s=08f5a61bf90003b52596f3f2a9fba6c3&showtopic=36233&page=4

    Fighting for truth and curiousity is yes i'm willing to do.. but obviously i'll have to strengthen myself first.

    Regular
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  Regular Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:25 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Nice work.

    Didn't Damien claim his friend measured it and got over 800mm for the turret, weld to weld?

    So much for that.

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    Well Damian have defended Russian hardware as well, especially when some Pakistanis started calling Indian T-90 inferior to Al Khalid. He is biased but not like one famous Ukrainian fella:)
    collegeboy16
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  collegeboy16 Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Alot of what Damien said on mp.net was odd to be honest.

    Yep Damien is a major bullshiter and Leopard 2 fanboy. Typical Polish complex - now that they got some Western toys (doesn't matter that they are a 'junior member' and aren't trusted with the very latest ones); they seek to play down and sling mud at all the Soviet gear they had before (no offense As-Saiqa)

    I mean I respect that his knowledge is clearly far superior to my own; but there are just some advantages of Russian armour that are impossible to argue with either way; such as the lower profile - yet Damien as a way to avoid admission of such things tries to play them down through the myth of the all-powerful, perfect modern FCS and so on; or harp on about what tank Polish servicemen 'prefer' (as if it's any sort of decisive factor). Might have been someone else actually who was talking about that one.
    This... I find it fckin annyoingly how having very marginally better stuff like ammo, gun, armor, FCS etc. now suddenly outweighs the benefits of being able to afford 3 tanks vs two, having a significantly lighter vehicle, and only 3 crew etc. etc.
    Pugnax
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty armata

    Post  Pugnax Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:05 pm

    Guys,the Israelis keep designing these superb forward engined Merkavas  because they see crew survivability as a critical design element.Forward  mounted engine packages,transmissions all get in the way of incoming rounds(accidental armour),a good firewall separates the powerplant from the crew...survivability goes way up.Fears of excessive heat signature might be a latent admission of poorly designed powerplant modules but then spewing hot oil out the left side exhaust hasnt done much to allay heat signature either.Hopefully Armata does away with this rather primitive and stupid practice of generating smoke.It was a novel and useful idea in the 1950s through the early 80s,Thermal imaging has made a farce of it.


    Last edited by Pugnax on Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : expansion)
    flamming_python
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  flamming_python Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:27 pm

    Don't see what's so special about the Merkavas

    They are very heavily armoured with good crew survivability but they are also very heavy and have a manual loader which takes up more space and this therefore equates to more weight and a larger profile.

    T-90 probably has lower crew survivability in case of penetration but it is far lighter, has an autoloading mechanism that never gets tired and in terms of actual armour per surface area unit I don't think there is much difference.
    Pugnax
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Armata

    Post  Pugnax Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:54 pm

    I was just responding to say that forward placement of the drive train in no way hinders a vehicle.The Merkava is like a Chieftain,too heavy to use most bridges,its size make urban manoeuvering a nightmare...and it is slow compared to most MBTS.It is a set piece defensive battle winner not a breakthrough or exploitation tank.As such it relies upon total air superiority,the added bonus that it hasnt really fought other tanks in quite a while adds to the mystique.
    magnumcromagnon
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:44 pm

    Pugnax wrote:Guys,the Israelis keep designing these superb forward engined Merkavas  because they see crew survivability as a critical design element.Forward  mounted engine packages,transmissions all get in the way of incoming rounds(accidental armour),a good firewall separates the powerplant from the crew...survivability goes way up.Fears of excessive heat signature might be a latent admission of poorly designed powerplant modules but then spewing hot oil out the left side exhaust hasnt done much to allay heat signature either.Hopefully Armata does away with this rather primitive and stupid practice of generating smoke.It was a novel and useful idea in the 1950s through the early 80s,Thermal imaging has made a farce of it.

    Because the Merkeva has a rear door ramp, that means it's rear side is even thinner and more vulnerable than every other modern MBT in the world. Let's put it this way, the Merkeva's rear end is as vulnerable to penetration as Elton John's.
    Pugnax
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Armata

    Post  Pugnax Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:51 pm

    I concur ,its rear end is a huge vulnerability but Mekava IVwill not be readily outflanked ,it is a heavily armoured defensive tank(Saddam would have loved them).It will sit still and kill at extreme ranges like the old WW2 Elephant.A mobile bunker with infantry support because the Israeli airforce sweeps the sky clear everytime.
    magnumcromagnon
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:29 pm

    Pugnax wrote:I concur ,its rear end is a huge vulnerability but Mekava IVwill not be readily outflanked ,it is a heavily armoured defensive tank(Saddam would have loved them).It will sit still and kill at extreme ranges like the old WW2 Elephant.A mobile bunker with infantry support  because the Israeli airforce sweeps the sky clear everytime.

    Even if what you say is true, it still wouldn't compensate for the lack of mobility and cost. A base model T-90 cost's somewhere in the ball park of $2-3 million, while the Merkava 4 is over $6 million, so theoretically speaking for every 100 Merkava 4 tanks purchased, you could purchase 200-300 base model T-90's, that means in a large scale tank battle between T-90's and Merkava 4's, you could have 2-3 T-90's engaging every 1 Merkava 4!!! I don't care how good your country's MBT is, that is too steep of odds to overcome!

    The Russian MOD wanted a cost effective MBT, so they got the T-90, if they were willing to pay over $6 million per tank like Israel, U.S., Britain, Germany, or France than they could of easily gotten something like a T-95 which could of easily surpassed all other MBT's in virtually every category with the exception of cost.
    flamming_python
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    General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread: - Page 8 Empty Re: General Main Battle Tank Technology Thread:

    Post  flamming_python Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:32 pm

    The Armata MBT should be affordable due to economies of scale production of the Armata chassis, and at the same time be comfortably superior in just about all parameters to any current tank.
    No need for an expensive T-95.

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