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    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #2

    Zhongqing
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    Post  Zhongqing Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:04 pm

    auslander wrote:Be prepared, gentlemen and lady, that it's only a matter of time before we lose some machines and boys. You take the King's schilling, sometimes you pay the King's price.

    Maybe, maybe not, but who says these are Russian Mi-24s? Syria has 30+ in their inventory. These might be their Mi-24s, or Russian Mi-24s piloted by Syrians. Russia has been training Syrian pilots since the Cold War.

    Considering these are supporting the Syrian Army's Hama and Latakia offensives
    auslander
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    Post  auslander Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:08 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:At the link there is a screen shot showing the position of US and RuAF Su-34 planes at a point in time. I find interesting the relative numbers of each sides' planes actually overflying Syria and how it is only the Russians that seem to be able to find any targets to hit.

    http://theaviationist.com/2015/10/06/us-f-16s-vs-su-34-fullback-over-syria/

    The answer is simple; the US planes mentioned in this piece of prolefeed don't exist. There is a no-fly-zone that Russia is enforcing there.

    I intentionally didn't mention this piece of prolfeed, you shouldn't have either, because I think this "story" belongs to the same category as that Turkish story.

    Let me be a bit more explicit. With that Turkish story, the Russian reportings of the "story" were merely providing NATO a path for saving face.
    Sorry, I must have missed the release that said that Russia had implemented a no-fly zone over that bit of Syria. Can you give a link?

    In my ignorance I thought that the US/NATO were, like the RuAF, attacking ISIS (perhaps less effectively) in Syria and that they were just staying away from each other. I thought that they have not yet divided the airspace up yet, if it happens. That screen capture is just what one might expect. My only puzzle is that it seems to show 4 not 2 Russian planes.

    There are plenty of proofs, reports, and announcements for Russia having established a no-fly-zone over Syria and parts of Turkey and Israel. Some material on the subject is even available in this thread. The content and the tone of the link that you have provided are themselves evidence that the story it is promoting is a fabrication.

    However, the no-fly-zone, its details, or its extent is not the subject of this discussion; what matters is that when you include a link in your post, especially one that uses two cartoons as it main body of evidence, you should also provide some reasoning as to why the ridiculous “claim” that is being promoted is a “true claim”, and not just a fabricated one.

    Your complicity in the promulgation of an uncorroborated item of prolefeed is an important part of what is wrong here.

    For starters, how about just explaining why the “article” you posted relies on cartoons as its main evidence for the “claim” it is promoting, other than the fact that the article is directed toward an audience that are expected to be very unintelligent.

    Also, if you post another cartoon in this thread claiming that the martians are sharing the airspace with the Russians over Syria, then is it my duty to do the footwork to provide links for you that disprove such a claim?

    I have noticed that in one of your more recent posts (https://www.russiadefence.net/t4532p795-russian-military-involvement-and-aid-to-syria-2#126014), you have continued to again promote this same story and have even made up your fictional scenario. Now, this goes beyond just being illogical and fully establishes the situation as something very suspicious.

    From your very first posts on this forum, I have found your posts as being very suspicious. They are at best copy-and-pastes of the material from the MSM. They are numerous and almost always false. The large rate at which you have posted points toward certain obvious conclusions, which I may elaborate on at a later time. The last paragraph of your reply to my post is pure trolling.

    Mods, please look into this matter; it is important to make sure this thread doesn’t get wrecked; it already is in a state that may be irretrievable.

    Perhaps a difference of opinion should be taken to PM's first. This is not the MPnet.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:09 pm

    Damn those Mi-24 playing russian roullete. Got the chills watching them fly above these monkeys shooting at them hmgs. I hope they are not Russian helicopters, I would keep them for perimeter defence and would use Mi-28N for standoff strikes. Far better helicopter than Mi-24, leaner and meaner. Not to mention better targetting systems and better armor.
    zg18
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    Post  zg18 Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:17 pm

    LOL "FSA" propagandists on twitter are showing of downed Apache from Iraq as Russian loss in Hama lol!

    These type says terrorists destroyed "dozens" of tanks yesterday , so much of credibility.

    Syrian military started to receive Russian infantry equipment

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #2 - Page 26 CQzCFLLUEAEHonV


    Last edited by zg18 on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:19 pm

    auslander wrote:Be prepared, gentlemen and lady, that it's only a matter of time before we lose some machines and boys. You take the King's schilling, sometimes you pay the King's price.

    This ain't the 1980's, aircraft are significantly better protected now. DIRCM's for IR guidance, and ECM suites for aircraft that cover area's that are hundreds of km's in diameter, Russia has already demonstrated ECM systems for helicopters that force warheads to explode mid-air attacking false targets. Even for the ground forces, they have ECM systems that can defeat radio-commanded IED's/Mines while simultaneously jamming the relevant frequencies they operate at from hundreds of meters away.

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t3199p870-russian-ground-forces-news-2#125771

    I'm not saying it's impossible, however if vehicles are lost, it'll likely be from the SAA inventory.
    auslander
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    Post  auslander Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:21 pm

    Zhongqing wrote:
    auslander wrote:Be prepared, gentlemen and lady, that it's only a matter of time before we lose some machines and boys. You take the King's schilling, sometimes you pay the King's price.

    Maybe, maybe not, but who says these are Russian Mi-24s? Syria has 30+ in their inventory. These might be their Mi-24s, or Russian Mi-24s piloted by Syrians. Russia has been training Syrian pilots since the Cold War.

    Considering these are supporting the Syrian Army's Hama and Latakia offensives

    My comment was not in regards to this particular action per se, it is a statement of reality, sooner or later we will lose some of our boys. I don't like it one bit but it will happen. Even the most inept idiot with an automat or a sling shot can get 'lucky' once.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:22 pm

    If these Mi-24P are not upgraded models then they are also open to being taken down a lot easier too. So Russia should be using Ka-52 or Mi-28 that have all those gadgets.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:24 pm

    zg18 wrote:LOL "FSA" propagandists on twitter are showing of downed Apache from Iraq as Russian loss in Hama lol!

    These type says terrorists destroyed "dozens" of tanks yesterday , so much of credibility.

    Syrian military started to receive Russian infantry equipment

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #2 - Page 26 CQzCFLLUEAEHonV
    Actually they did destroy plenty of armor. No loss for any air assets. I am crossing my fingers SA or Turkey won't be flooding the place with MANPADS. Airpower is turning the tide in this war.
    zg18
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    Post  zg18 Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:26 pm

    Putin spokesman Peskov confirmed president had lengthy phone talk with Egyptian president Al-Sisi about Syria and got full support from Cairo.
    Shadåw
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    Post  Shadåw Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:27 pm

    How..saddening it seems the Wikipedia article for the 2015 Hama Offensive appears to use SOHR as a source..


    Last edited by Shadåw on Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Neutrality
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    Post  Neutrality Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:27 pm

    My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:If these Mi-24P are not upgraded models then they are also open to being taken down a lot easier too. So Russia should be using Ka-52 or Mi-28 that have all those gadgets.
    I think they are PM variant. Still they are inferior to Mi-35M. Why Russia doesn't bring it's cutting edge helicopters here, I don't know.
    auslander
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    Post  auslander Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:29 pm

    zg18 wrote:LOL "FSA" propagandists on twitter are showing of downed Apache from Iraq as Russian loss in Hama lol!

    These type says terrorists destroyed "dozens" of tanks yesterday , so much of credibility.

    Syrian military started to receive Russian infantry equipment

    Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #2 - Page 26 CQzCFLLUEAEHonV

    In an hour that photo will be on West Media as proof that RuArmy is in the fighting.
    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:32 pm

    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.
    Mi-24 can hover no problem as it was seen in Ukraine and Iraq conflicts. Problem is their side mounted 30mm cannons, it's ok against light armour, but it would be very difficult to use it against scattered infantry in urban environment. Plus targeting systems on those 24s aren't the best.
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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:34 pm

    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:35 pm

    sepheronx wrote:If these Mi-24P are not upgraded models then they are also open to being taken down a lot easier too. So Russia should be using Ka-52 or Mi-28 that have all those gadgets.

    I don't think they're dumb enough to do that. Just because VKS doesn't announce it, doesn't mean it's not there. Kras-4's presence in Lattakia wasn't announced either, Buyan-M's support from the Caspian Sea wasn't announced until after the fact, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're other assets being utilized that aren't being announced (such as radio-comm jammers).
    Regular
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    Post  Regular Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:37 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy
    Are You kidding me? Pilots life is more expensive than helicopter itself. And yes, rockets are main weapons, but 30mm packs a punch, from above it can shred even a tank. Or at least strip it off and put it out of action.
    Neutrality
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    Post  Neutrality Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:39 pm

    Damn it. I wish they tested out a couple of Armatas there or a BMPT at least.
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    Post  Hachimoto Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:39 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy
    Are You kidding me? Pilots life is more expensive than helicopter itself. And yes, rockets are main weapons, but 30mm packs a punch, from above it can shred even a tank. Or at least strip it off and put it out of action.

    Exactly, and any loss Russian side will draw a bad pictures of russian equipement specially when it will be relayed by western media
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    Post  Hachimoto Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:39 pm

    avatar
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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:46 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy
    Are You kidding me? Pilots life is more expensive than helicopter itself. And yes, rockets are main weapons, but 30mm packs a punch, from above it can shred even a tank. Or at least strip it off and put it out of action.

    There is no armor concentration in Syria on FSA/ISIS side, hence no need for extensive use of missiles, and with fortifications they have you can deal with S5s anyways. Also whole point of Mi24s is to deliver cheap CAS, to carry alot, stick around for long time and engage many targets. If they wanted extensive use of Atakas/Shturms they would bring Mi28Ns anyways.
    ExBeobachter1987
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:47 pm

    Regular wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:If these Mi-24P are not upgraded models then they are also open to being taken down a lot easier too. So Russia should be using Ka-52 or Mi-28 that have all those gadgets.
    I think they are PM variant. Still they are inferior to Mi-35M. Why Russia doesn't bring it's cutting edge helicopters here, I don't know.

    Because they are sufficient for their tasks. The whole operation is expensive enough.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:50 pm

    Regular wrote:
    I think they are PM variant. Still they are inferior to Mi-35M. Why Russia doesn't bring it's cutting edge helicopters here, I don't know.

    perhaps there aren't many of those helicopters to begin with. So it can't be risked.
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    Post  Cucumber Khan Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:55 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy

    The S-5 was found to be ineffective already during the afghan war, and replaced with the 80 mm S-8. Of the pictures I've seen the Mi-24s seems to be ordinary non-upgraded Mi-24P.
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    Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:07 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:My question is why don't they engage them from a safe distance by using long range guidance rockets or the HMG like we've seen the Apache pilots do plenty of times in Iraq. Again, I'm not an expert on this but going in for low strafe runs completely exposes you to heavy calibre weapons on the ground. If they continue like this some idiot on the ground will get lucky with his RPG eventually or a .50cal gun.

    Missiles are expencive you know Very Happy Also main tool of Mi24 are unguided rockets S5 57mm, they require quite...intime relation with a target to be effective Very Happy

    The S-5 was found to be ineffective already during the afghan war, and replaced with the 80 mm S-8. Of the pictures I've seen the Mi-24s seems to be ordinary non-upgraded Mi-24P.

    Its far from being "replaced", UB32 pods are still widely used, they however allow bigger target envelope since S8 and S12 were introduced. One will not put S12 load on Mi24 if his target is column of soft skin targets, you will load S5s on UB32 and you will double or triple your effect on column.

    There is actually whole field in math called optimisation which deals with issues like this, what weapon, what load, how many targets, whats the weight, cost, how accurate...


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